Partial Transcript: I'd like to start by asking you a few questions about your life and your background before you came
Segment Synopsis: Blackwell discusses his education, his work with the American Council on Education, and his work as a civilian liaison between the Office of Civilian Defense and other government agencies during World War II.
13:23 - Consolidated University administration, with a focus on Frank Porter Graham and William C. "Bill" Friday
Partial Transcript: I wonder if you could say a little about Frank Graham, how his style of administration, his
Segment Synopsis: Blackwell discusses his interaction with administrators in the UNC Consolidated University System. He discusses his admiration for and interactions with UNC President Frank Porter Graham. He also describes his later contact with UNC President William C. "Bill" Friday.
Partial Transcript: Could you tell more about the structure of the administration, your administration? I gather,
Segment Synopsis: Blackwell discusses the structure of the administration during his tenure as chancellor, including mentions of Mereb Mossman, Katherine Taylor, Barbara Parrish, and the college business office.
Partial Transcript: Was -- most academic matters were channeled through Mereb Mossman? Yes. So the department
Segment Synopsis: Blackwell discusses Mereb Mossman and her role managing academic affairs on campus. he also mentions tensions among the faculty when the institution began its move to university status.
Partial Transcript: Tell me more about the students at Woman's College. Everything I hear about them indicates
Segment Synopsis: Blackwell discusses Woman's College students and their resistance to the college's strict rules and regulations. He mentions the "Black Stockings" student group as leaders in protests to lift social restrictions on drinking and smoking.
Partial Transcript: Did you have much contact with students generally? Yes I was trying to think whether I
Segment Synopsis: Blackwell discusses his interaction with the Woman's College students. He tells a story about his mother-in-law purchasing him a handkerchief that said "I like girls" and how it served as a conversation starter.
Partial Transcript: What sort of condition did you think Woman's College was when you left? How would you
Segment Synopsis: Blackwell explains his impressions of the state of Woman's College when he left the position of chancellor in 1960. He also mentions the uneasiness that existed at that point among alumnae who were hesitant about the possibility of coeducation.
WL: The following is an interview with Gordon W. Blackwell at his home inGreenville, South Carolina, by William Link on November 12, 1990. I'd like to start by asking you a few questions about your life and your background before you came to Woman's College [of the University of North Carolina]. I wonder if you could tell me just a little bit about your early life, where you were born, and where you were educated.
GB: I was born in Timmonsville, South Carolina, but moved to Spartanburg when Iwas about six months old and lived there through my school years. I went to Furman University and graduated in 1932. Then I went to [The University of North Carolina at] Chapel Hill, and in the fall of 1932 to begin my graduate work in 1:00sociology. And in about four months, with Pearl Harbor having come, I left first to direct a study for the American Council on Education, which was - had a commission on teacher education. And I did a study for them on aspects pertaining to community understanding by teachers, their understanding of community organization. That took me to about thirteen different colleges and universities across the country. And then I went to Washington [DC] at the request of Jonathan Daniels [administrative assistant and press secretary to President Franklin D. Roosevelt 1943-45, press secretary to President Harry S. Truman 1945, consultant to President Truman for the 1948 presidential campaign; and biographer of Harry S. Truman] to work with him in the Office of Civilian Defense. The civilian services side of civilian defense, not the protection 2:00side, which involved air raid wardens and this kind of thing. Essentially, I was liaison between the Office of Civilian Defense and a number of the federal agencies that were working on problems of strengthening the home front, as they put it, solving community problems such as daycare for working mothers, recreational opportunities, things of this kind, housing. And so I was liaison with the different federal agencies. And essentially it was a job in community organization. We sought to get community councils formed in cities and rural communities throughout the country that would help strengthen the home front, as 3:00the saying was.
WL: These community councils were composed of leaders in education?
GB: And the social, various social agencies and leading citizens in thecommunity. Essentially they were doing what a community planning council does today, or social planning councils, many of which grew out of those defense councils that were formed, the war years.
WL: Did you have much contact with Jonathan Daniels?
WL: Is that how you got into it or did you have a previous association?
GB: Yes, I think Howard Odum [founder of Department of Sociology at UNC ChapelHill] recommended me to Mr. Daniels because I did not know him before. But I reported to the director of Civilian War Services, the position that had 4:00recently been filled by Eleanor Roosevelt [wife of President Franklin D. Roosevelt]. But she was not a very good administrator and she gave up that work and Jonathan Daniels came in and took her place. And so I did work rather closely with him for about a year and a half.
WL: And you returned to Chapel Hill in 1943?
GB: Yes, I believe it was January 1, '43.
WL: At this point, were you on the faculty? You had been on the faculty atChapel Hill and then went -
GB: Yes, I had rank, I believe, of associate professor when I went back there,when I went in '41, and I frankly don't remember when I was appointed full 5:00professor, whether it was when I came back immediately or several years later. Then in '56, '55 perhaps, I became Kenan Professor of Sociology.
WL: Could you describe the department of sociology at Chapel Hill a little bitmore? You mentioned some of the people such as Howard Odum. If you could elaborate a little bit more I'd appreciate it.
GB: Yes. I like to think that during the 1940s we had the best of the originalolder department of sociology, but then in the late forties, began bringing in some of the newer breed sociologists with degrees from Chicago or Cornell or Harvard. And the department was rated as one of the five strongest in the 6:00country in the late thirties and early forties by whatever national group does that. And I like to think that we were able to strengthen it even more by bringing in some young blood to complement the wonderful group that Howard Odum had assembled. Dr. Odum's primary emphasis, as you know, was on studies of the South. And Rupert Vance, who published Human Geography of the South, was a very great scholar and a great teacher and had tremendous influence on graduate students, probably more so than anyone else in the department. He was in demography and his Human Geography of the South was a classic, I think. Guy 7:00Johnson was in race relations and was extremely competent in that field, and in the late forties, I believe, he took a couple of years off and was on the firing line by being director of the Southern Regional Council, which was working in the field primarily in race relations in those days. He came under criticism from some of the conservative people in the state for his, what they called advance views on race. Harriet Herring, who studied the southern mill village and wrote a book [Welfare Work in Mill Villages] on the passing of the mill village when the mills began selling the homes to the workers. She was a member of the department primarily in research. She did no teaching but had a rank in 8:00sociology. And Margaret Haygood was in statistics and research methodology. And Katherine Jocher, J-O-C-H-E-R, was the first woman to achieve full professorial status, I believe, at Chapel Hill, and she was Dr. Odum's chief assistant, collaborator, ever since he founded the institute [Odum Institute for Research in Sociology] in about 1926, I believe. Newer people that we brought in was an industrial sociologist, William Noland who went to the Woman's College after 9:00being out in the Midwest somewhere, but we had him for quite a few years. And Harvey Smith, sociologist working in the health and medical field and was soon given a staff appointment in the medical school because he could mediate between the sociology and medicine quite effectively. And Nicholas J. Demerath, Harvard PhD, came in the field of social theory and the study of complex social organizations. And graduate students coming out of the department and becoming - and joining the staff of the department were George Simpson and John Ivey and Dan Price. Those three were in the first seminar I gave at Chapel Hill in 1941, and they went on to become quite well known. Price was back at the Woman's College for some years in sociology, and George Simpson became chancellor of the 10:00University of Georgia system of higher education. And John Ivey became head of the Southern Regional Council and gave excellent leadership there for many years. These were three of Dr. Odum's white hopes, as he used to refer to them In the institute, what I was most proud of was moving it more effectively into other social sciences. It had been primarily sociology with token support and participation in other fields, such as Arthur Link having an assistantship in the institute. And Fletcher Green was on the board of directors of the institute for many, many years after I became director of the institute. But the participation was very minimal in the field of history, and similarly the other 11:00social sciences. But we brought political science in, so several political scientists served on the staff of the institute, which means that they were given a lighter teaching load, given time for research, in the direction of research, and would have one or more research assistants working with them. This we accomplished in political science, in economics, business and the field of public health. We developed close relationships with the new department of 12:00statistics. And Harold Hotelling [Kenan professor in department of statistics] came in, and we had one of his young professors on our institute staff. We had weekly luncheons in which these various social scientists would come together for very light, informal pick-up lunch and to hear reports, either by faculty or graduate students on the research underway and that, we felt, tended to bring the social sciences together in a rather effective manner.
WL: This was while you were director - did you become director, you became13:00director on the death of Howard Odum?
GB: No, no. I became director when I came back in 1944. He wanted to berelieved of the administrative responsibilities and so I was director from '43 or '44 on, if my memory serves me right. I was chairman of the department in later years for one or two years, but that was too much to handle that much administration.
WL: As director you must have dealt frequently with the administration of theuniversity, Frank [Porter] Graham [UNC President], for example, or Robert House [UNC Chapel Hill Chancellor].
GB: Yes, both.
WL: I wonder if you could say a little about Frank Graham, how his style ofadministration, his style of leadership -
GB: He was one of the greatest men I've ever known. He was an inspiration, hewas a dreamer, he was a freedom fighter. As an administrator, I would say he was, acted more on impulse and would become a little fed up with bureaucratic structure and lines of responsibility. Give you one example. One day he called 14:00me over to his office and said, "I just employed a man in regional planning and I want you to find a place for him to work." This was John Parker, Jack Parker as he came to be known. And I had to do a little reading to find out what was involved in regional planning on the academic side and found there were several graduate departments of regional planning at Pennsylvania and several other universities. But it's not easy to introduce a new field of study and research 15:00in a university without going through the proper channels. But Frank Graham was not deterred by that. He hired the man, and then asked me to find a place for him to work and teach, knowing that Howard Odum was much interested in regional planning in a rather broad concept. And so we found office space for him in the sociology and institute building. And I worked through the graduate school with Dean [William] Whatley Pierson to get recognition and acceptance of this new field of teaching. And it was opposed by Albert Cokes in the Institute of 16:00Government, which felt that this should be their province, although as an institute they did no teaching, they were in research and service. But we were able eventually to get acceptance of regional planning through the master's degree curriculum established and two other people employed, and it now offers a doctorate and is one of the strongest regional planning programs in the country. It's been extremely successful. It's meant a lot to North Carolina to be educating these planners to go out into city and regional planning. It became 17:00city and regional planning as soon as they got it underway. Frank Graham caused this to happen and went about it in a very unorthodox way administratively for a university.
WL: He would have ideas and then leave details of implementing the ideas to others?
GB: Another example. He decided that the University of [North Carolina at]Chapel Hill should move further into statistics, theoretical statistics, and out of the blue he employed Harold Hotelling, a world renowned statistician then at Columbia University. And again had to get somebody - I didn't have this chore - but he had to get someone to create a department for him to work in and work out arrangements with North Carolina State College [now University] where they had a strong statistics department and an institute of statistics with Gertrude Cox in charge. And we paid Harold Hotelling more than, I'm sure, any other professor in the university was getting. And there was criticism from the faculty of this, but some of us felt that this is the way to make a great university. You develop peaks of excellence - that's always been my own personal philosophy - where you 18:00go out and get someone like that and eventually that's going to help pull up the whole university. And I think in that case it did. It proved to be a very successful venture that Frank Graham was responsible for. Robert House was a wonderfully fine man, friendly, great public relations from a personal basis. He was a sound academician, although he didn't have great vision and you wouldn't expect new programs to come from his brain as you would from Frank Graham. But 19:00he could bring about cordial friendly feelings within the faculty when there were disputes or people weren't happy. Well, he could smooth the troubled waters. But a very fine, effective administrator and did just, I guess, what President Graham thought he should do. President Graham was over the Consolidated University [of the University of North Carolina], but he had grown out of the faculty at Chapel Hill and his first love, I'm sure, was the university. And I don't know what the perception of him was at N.C. State or at 20:00the Woman's College in those days.
WL: Did he - I gather he took charge of a lot of the affairs at Chapel Hill andworking with House but there, like, wasn't a strict sort of distinction between House's area of responsibility and Graham's area of responsibility. Is that correct?
GB: The way it worked out on paper there was, but he was not one to followchannels, and Bob House wouldn't mind at all the way the president functioned in relation to him. Never been any jealousy or feeling, Well, you're skating over my province, as there would have been later with other people in those positions.
WL: I guess House and he had a kind of understanding. They worked as a team inthe sense that -
GB: I'm sure they did. I think it was just assumed by each that they would. AndI doubt if there was ever any conversation on understanding, it was there, it just happened.
WL: How do you explain Frank Graham's tremendous charisma, the way that he wasable to take often so controversial positions, issues, explosive implications, 21:00such as, oh, a number of things, labor relations, race, and still survive and even be appreciated statewide?
GB: Well, he was so sincere, so dedicated, so Christian-like - Christ-like - inmany ways. His ideals, his principles, his integrity shone through. It was just the character of the man. And he had his detractors, probably his enemies. But he had such charisma in his public appearances, and he could speak beautifully. Many of his addresses, it seemed to me, were beautifully constructed and 22:00expressed. And he was serious and didn't mind taking a stand, going out on a limb and fighting for what he believed in.
WL: His successor, Gordon Gray, came with, I gather, a different style of administration.
GB: Yes, he came out of the business world. And it is not frequent, it seems to23:00me, that someone can come from the business world, or from politics, like [Harold] Stassen [Governor of Minnesota, president of Penn State University, presidential candidate] going to Pennsylvania or [Milton] Eisenhower [president of Kansas State University, Penn State University, Johns Hopkins University] going to Columbia [sic] and make the transition and be effective. I think Stassen and Eisenhower failed miserably, and I'm afraid that Gordon Gray did too. He was never comfortable, as I understand it, in his position as president of the university and was not particularly effective. I don't think he could understand professors and what the academic way of life was and the need to administer an institution along what we call collegial lines rather than 24:00business lines.
WL: So there was a gap in communication between Gray and the faculty, is thataccurate to say?
GB: Yes, I think that's true. And I don't recall any examples of realleadership that he gave. He was more distant from the faculty in his personal relations, and it just didn't work out.
WL: Did you have much contact with [William C.] Bill Friday [president of UNCSystem] at this point? I wonder if you remember the first sort of contacts you might have had with him.
GB: Yes. We had a little group of young faculty members that met, it was every25:00two weeks or every month some night, somewhere, at somebody's home. We just discussed issues of the day, [unclear] perhaps a little, but mostly issues within the university. These were young Turks, I'd guess you'd say, on the faculty. And there was an anthropologist, another sociologist, and myself, and probably Alex Hurd [?], I'm not sure. I don't recall who the others were. I guess there were about 15. Some have referred to it as the kitchen cabinet maybe. Bill Friday was a member of this group although he was assistant dean of 26:00students. He was a good friend of several of us in the group and I don't know how it happened that he was in the group, but he was then just like one of the group. The fact that he was not a faculty member didn't seem to make any difference. And he was enthusiastic in his participation. That is, he had plenty of ideas and said plenty of things. That was my first way I got acquainted with him. And we saw them socially, Bill and Ida. And I guess in those years we 27:00wouldn't have thought of his moving up far in the structure of the university. But when he had the chance to become assistant to Gordon Gray - and I don't know how that happened - but that gave him a real opportunity to learn and to become more visible or more highly visible. He worked behind the scenes, but when he was appointed president it was a great step. He really, I think, had a tremendous career and a great impact on the university system.
WL: This kitchen cabinet was an informal group that - maybe you could tell me a28:00bit more about what the purposes were. Just as a social group?
GB: It was primarily a discussion group more than social as such. It had aserious side to it but an opportunity to discuss issues of the day. And I don't recall to what extent it focused on university issues, but I think it did. Someone who could help you on that if you wanted to write him is Nicholas J. Demerath, and I'd have to get you his address. My wife has it. He is now retired. He left us in, about the time I did I guess, or before, and went to St. Louis to Washington University in sociology and started an institute program there somewhat like the one we had had. But he has mentioned this kitchen cabinet, if that's what we called it, one or two times in recent years, and I could see his memory of it's much better than mine. And he was very active in it and he later made a study of - well, he directed a graduate student or two in 29:00sociology studying the organization of the university and its functioning, just as complex organization sociologists have studied business industry, and this was quite an interesting study.
WL: What were your impressions of Bill Friday as a young man moving up into theranks of university administration? Was he, how did he strike you? What sort of personal and intellectual qualities stood out when you thought of him?
GB: Very personable, extremely friendly, warm in his personal relationships,very thoughtful. In those days, I don't recall about any indications of his 30:00brilliance. He was trained in law, I believe, but I never heard him discuss anything in the legal field particularly. I think that being associated indirectly with Frank Graham and having that experience and then being part of a great university, in my opinion, a great academic place, a great place with academic freedom, I think that this contributed greatly to prepare him then for 31:00his administrative work later and then the experience with Gordon Gray - was that about four years or five?
WL: Yes, '51 to '55 or '56, four or five years.
GB: He was in an ideal place to be a participant/observer and to learn fromthat and to see the pulling and hauling that goes on in the university, faculty, administration. What I like to call creative tension was always there between the administer and the faculty and -
WL: Especially, I guess, in the case of Gordon Gray since he was, I gather froma number of people, a rather distant person. Bill Friday was a very warm person. He could serve as a kind of bridge?
GB: Yes, yes. And Bill was exceptional enough to have been able to save a manwho had Gordon Gray's problems if he could have at all adjusted to what was 32:00required of him as president. And he might have, if he'd stayed on; he might have learned, but I think he was just unhappy. He just quit, and he didn't need to worry about the finances.
WL: I wonder if you could tell me about the circumstances that took you fromChapel Hill to Greensboro. What, how did you, what was the process by which you 33:00made the move, the process by which you made the decision to leave Chapel Hill? It must have been a big decision.
GB: Yes, it was. I had been as director of the institute and, for a time,chairman of the department of sociology, but briefly - two years maybe, - and as editor of Social Forces Magazine for a year or two. In the institute we had gotten into, always we were after foundation grants and some of them had been very successful in the thirties. And I tried to continue that and I think successfully. We touched Carnegie Foundation for a large research grant. And then in the late forties, contract research with federal agencies became 34:00available, even in the social sciences. And so we developed a number of contracts, one with the housing agency, one to study the Savannah River plant as it was being developed. It was a chance to do an experiment in sociology and watch it. You insert this tremendous industrial development into a rural area and so that -
WL: You said you studied the rural area, the kind of sociology and the rural society?
GB: That's right, and the impact of this on it, and that led to severaldissertations. We got a contract with the US Air Force to study air bases as conflicts, social organizations, sent graduate students on temporary duty to England with a wing that moved from Savannah. And we were out in the West at air 35:00bases studying them. Well, I was head over heels into administration. I was trying to write a book on community organizations, contract with Holt and a file cabinet full of materials. And I was teaching one undergraduate/graduate course and another seminar, and I just couldn't do everything and do it well. And I had to either get out of administration and try to be a sociologist. And I didn't know what to do. And so administration had some appeal to me, and I felt I had abilities that were needed. And so I was offered a position of academic vice president at Florida State [University] in about '55 and was much interested in 36:00it. Went down; my wife and I went down, but finally I decided I wouldn't do it. It was pull away from Chapel Hill and I didn't want to do that, and they made me a Kenan Professor and I stayed. But obviously I had some interest in administration, university administration, and the opportunity at Greensboro developed. I was Bill Friday's first appointment, I believe, after he became president of the University [System]. I admired him greatly and had no idea at that time how great a president he would become. But I knew he was a man of integrity. And so then I -
WL: Did he in any way prevail upon you to - I mean, did he convince you to takethe job or persuade you in any way?
GB: Yes, but I'm not sure it took a lot of persuasion. I learned what I could37:00about Woman's College, but here was a real opportunity to move into college administration, and it had greater appeal than being a dean or vice president somewhere. And I guess most people would get a kick out of the idea of being head of something, you know, chancellor or president. So he didn't have to twist my arm very much. I just liked him, and I liked the idea of working for him.
WL: What were your initial impressions of Woman's College? You must have, beingso close in Chapel Hill, have had a set of impressions already?
GB: Yes, I found a stronger academic institution, I think, than I expected. I38:00was surprised to learn that we had a chapter of Phi Beta Kappa going pretty far back, just as Florida State College for Women had down there - it was Florida State University. They had the first chapter in the state of Florida. It was a very strong academic institution much like Woman's College. And I was pleased with the academic quality of the faculty, the students. I found the college, I think, in a somewhat upset state, not turmoil exactly, but a lot of restlessness, a condition which I believe [Whatley] Pierson as acting chancellor had done a great deal to calm down. But still there were some rather deep rifts, 39:00it seemed to me, in the institution, especially in the School of Music. There were some real problems there. I can't remember details, but I remember we worked hard at trying to smooth things out in the School of Music, and, I think, very successfully.
WL: I guess these divisions went back to the Graham years?
GB: So I was told.
WL: Yes. Did you know about any of that before you came? Had that spilled backto Chapel Hill, what was going on?
GB: Probably very little.
WL: But you found the faculty fairly deeply divided or some division in the faculty?
GB: Yes. It's hard now to recollect just specifically what the divisions were,40:00but I think that Dr. Pierson being there had helped a great deal. And I think it was good that somebody could be there temporarily for a year before someone new came in on a more permanent basis.
WL: And he was brought in to smooth over and try to reconcile the differences?
GB: Yeah. And I think Bill Friday made a very wise move in having that done.Again, Bill just had a lot of wisdom. He made a lot of very fine decisions, seems to me, and that probably was one of them.
WL: Tell me more about the faculty that you found there and what sorts ofcontacts you might have had with the faculty. Presumably in those days, 41:00especially, you would have had a lot of contact with faculty.
GB: Yes. I felt that we got to know the faculty quite well. My wife and I sortof do these things as a team, and she was extremely helpful. And she, I think, became very good friends with a good many of the faculty, their wives or their husbands. And we found some strengths in the faculty. Ethel Martus [Lawther], [first dean of School of Health and Human Performance], I think, was building a very strong physical education department, and I believe while I was there probably began offering PhDs for the first time. That was a young vigorous faculty, most of them, engaging in research, several of them. I can't remember 42:00many names. Ellen Bricken[?] and one who was doing more research, I can't remember her name, but home economics. And one concern that Woman's College had was that NC State would want to try to get home economics moved over there as part of the land grant institution. It was a good school. They needed a dean, and I knew not one thing about home economics. But I tried to learn a little and learn prospective - where to go to find a dean. I went to Cornell first and didn't find anyone. Then I went to Iowa State to see a particular professor there, a woman who was well known and happened to meet this really young assistant professor all afire, Naomi Albanese. And so almost like a flash I 43:00decided she was the one that I wanted. And it was one of the best choices I ever made, I think. She did a fine job and went on to become president of the American Home Economics Association, about twenty thousand members or something. She had a good staff and she greatly strengthened it and developed much more research, a program in family research and child development and things like this which were very good. I remember being a little concerned that we had the two-year secretarial program and called it commercial program. And yet it was of quality for what they were doing, but more a function of a community college 44:00than a part of a university, but it continued and was going well. I don't know when it was dropped, perhaps after I left.
WL: It had been there a long time.
GB: Yes, and had developed some excellent private secretaries for bigindustries and all this, you see - just a question of was it a function, proper function as part of the university. We had a two-year nursing program which was already underway of being planned, I think, with Cone Hospital. And Mereb 45:00Mossman, who was our dean, had worked a lot with that. And I can't remember the sequence, whether it was developed the year I got there or was already underway, but it was developed while I was there and became accredited, I think. And it was a very good program. Bu again, it was two years and - has that become a four-year program now?
WL: Yes, it's a graduate program.
GB: But I recall that program. And in business, there was a good foundation tobuild a program, I think. I don't remember too much about it, the head of it, a man who stayed there a long time. I forget his name.
WL: Vance Littlejohn?
GB: Yes, yeah. In the arts and sciences, there were some good basic strengths.46:00English, I remember, had several people who were quite good. Bridges [?] was a man and a woman in that department, I forget now her name but, was there a Virginia Somebody? Anyway, I felt that English and history were strong, as I recollect it. And it seems to me that either biology and chemistry was the best in the sciences.
WL: Was there much intention or desire to develop graduate programs at this point?47:00
GB: - on the way of being creditable PhD offerings. Master's degree, Ibelieve, was being talked about. I'm not sure whether they offered any in history or English. Of course, education, I think, were offering master's degrees. And the teacher education program, I felt, was quite good with the demonstration school, Curry, across the street there.
WL: Did you have much contact with Curry School?
GB: I had two daughters in it, for one thing. That's pretty close contact. But48:00I would not say that I became involved very closely with the people in education. Can't remember now who we had as head of that at that time. And I don't recall if there was much by way of continuing education going on. I do recall that we had strength in art and I believe renovated McIver Building and enlarged it to provide new quarters for art, and that was - The Weatherspoon Art Gallery was good, and we had a good deal of support out in town. One of the Cone brothers was a great supporter of the art department. And music, I think, 49:00was strong and we were very proud of that department. And they put on excellent musical comedy each year. They did "The King and I," I remember, one year we were there. And I think the community looked to the college for a lot of the fine music that a city the size of Greensboro needed.
WL: You mentioned McIver Building. My office is in McIver Building now. Theyrenovated McIver Building. Did the renovation take place or begin while you were chancellor?
GB: I thought so. Maybe it was just an enlargement of it, adding space for art.I thought it was renovated, though, in about '58 or '59.
WL: Must have been a major undertaking. I gather the old McIver Building wasreally a totally different building. I don't know whether you recall.
GB: I do not. We built a new dormitory, I believe, while I was there, and was50:00the new infirmary already built or was that opened while I was there? I can't remember that.
WL: Those were the two major buildings, two or three major building projectsthat went on while you were chancellor?
GB: Yes. I don't recall anything else besides McIver and a dormitory and maybethe infirmary, or maybe it was just brand new when I got there. I don't remember.
WL: I wonder if you could elaborate more on the contacts that you may have hadwith the community. Would you say that the Woman's College was isolated from the community or to what extent was it integrated? You mentioned some of the ways in which it was integrated, music and art.
GB: I felt that there was a very warm feeling between the community and the51:00university. We had many alumni, alumnae, out in the community. Emily Preyer for one; she was very active, very close. And Adelaide Holderness and a great many people like that, it seemed to me, were very supportive of the university. Development had not - we didn't have a development office, I don't believe, when I got there. And I'm hazy as to just what happened while I was there. I think we started the newsletter, which still comes out periodically. We worked hard on 52:00the alumni fund, of course - the annual giving thing. And I was trying to think whether we employed anyone in the development office while I was there or whether that came soon after.
WL: Could you tell more about the structure of the administration, youradministration? I gather, compared to the way the university administration is now, it was a rather small group of people -
GB: You asked what sort of administrative structure we had. Dean Mereb Mossman53:00had been the dean, and I found her to be an extremely fine person and good relations with the faculty, a lot of wisdom. And she was just my right arm, and I admired her very much. Katherine Taylor was dean of students, and I felt that she was very fine also. She could relate well to students. Perhaps she didn't change quite as rapidly as students thought she should change. The social regulations didn't change as rapidly as the students wanted perhaps, but she was a good member of our team. The business officer [John C. Lockhart] retired perhaps after my first year, and this had not been a strong feature of the administration in my opinion. And we brought in a new business officer [Wendell Murray] and I can't even recall his name, I'm sorry to say.
WL: Was that Henry Ferguson?
GB: No, before him. He died, not while I was there but only a few years laterof a heart attack. But he was good, and he - I can't tell you what his background was - but he worked hard at getting business office procedures more 54:00up to date. And he was a good member of our staff.
WL: You say that the business office - was that the main problem, it was not upto date?
GB: My recollection is that it was not up to date in terms of business officeprocedures, and it was difficult to get information that one would need for planning and this kind of thing. I can't give you specific examples of changes 55:00that we made, but Billy Carmichael [UNC System controller, vice president, finance, officer president] from the Consolidated Office worked closely with us in getting a new man and working with him. And I guess it was a problem of comparability in business office procedures and records to enable us to jibe with the other two units of the Consolidated University. That may have been one of the problems. We had either a director of graduate studies or a dean of graduate studies, I think, and again I can't remember who filled that position. 56:00
WL: Where were you located? Were you in the administration building, what's nowcalled Foust Building?
GB: Yes, the little office to the left of the entrance. It had a sort of littlebay window. And I'm just trying to think. You see, we had no development officer, I'm sure, when I got there. Barbara Parrish had just taken over alumni affairs, and we worked very well with her, very closely. And my wife and I made many, many trips out to alumni meetings, and I think we helped strengthen relationships with the alumni. It had always been good, I'm sure, public relations, news bureau, this sort of thing, I forget how that was handled. But 57:00it was not a well-developed office of institutional advancement, or development is what you would call it today. [The University of North Carolina at] Chapel Hill had moved in the development area while I was there, and I worked very closely with their consultant from California while I was in Chapel Hill. I learned a lot from him, and I brought him once to Woman's College as a consultant to advise us as to what we should do. And I'm sure that if I had not left when I did, we would have achieved well-rounded fundraising/public relations program, which I think was badly needed.
WL: Was - most academic matters were channeled through Mereb Mossman?
WL: So the department heads reported to her.
GB: That's correct.
WL: Could you say a little bit more about Mereb Mossman? She's - the history ofUNCG [University of North Carolina Greensboro] after 1945 sort of, almost coincides with the career and life of Mereb Mossman. 58:00
GB: Yes. She was a very unusual person. I don't believe she had a doctorate.She'd been in social work, sociology, too, and yet she had the right kind of academic values. She understood that the faculty was central in a university or college. And she was very placid, never appeared to be ruffled or upset. And this is good for a person in that position because there are pressures and tensions from time to time. I felt she was capable in appraising the quality of 59:00individual faculty members and she was just a good, stabilizing influence. Again, probably not one to come forth with many new ideas, new programs, this sort of thing. But again, I wasn't there long enough to really get into - they say it takes a president four years at least. The first year is his honeymoon; the second year he gets to know the faculty. The third year the faculty gets to know him. The forth year he leaves. I left after three years. 60:00
WL: I wonder - about the faculty, if you could just make some generalizationsif you remember. One of the divisions that arose during the period of Edward Graham's chancellorship apparently was a division between the old-guard faculty and the faculty that were seeking some rather basic changes in the way the curriculum was structured and the way the college was managed. This may not be accurate, but this is the way some people remember it. That old-guard faculty was composed of a lot of, mostly women, not exclusively women, but mostly women, who dated back a long ways, perhaps even the twenties and thirties in terms of their tenure. Did you notice that as a presence, the sort of vulnerable faculty that had been there and were somewhat resistant to change? I don't want to ask you a leading question.
GB: I'm sure that was there. I know the term "old guard," and I think it wasstill in use and there were still members of the old guard who had resisted change. And this is usually true. But it becomes a problem, as I see it, when a 61:00college ceases to be just an undergraduate college and begins to move toward university status. If I may digress a minute, at Florida State. I got there in 1960, and they had twelve years making this transition from a women's college to a coeducational university. And I decided then that it takes fifteen to twenty years for an institution to make that change, because for one thing, the faculty has to change. And that happens by attrition, death, retirement, and by bringing 62:00in new faculty and expanding the faculty. Of course, if you're in a period of expansion it is much easier to get a big majority of the faculty of appropriate type for a university as contrasted with an undergraduate college of the 1940s, say. And at Florida State, I think I gave them a very good time. It was about the last five or six years of making this transition. You have to attract an appropriate student body with a good representation of men of some quality, and 63:00that doesn't happen overnight. It takes about twenty years before it can appeal - fifteen to twenty years before it can appeal to the kind of male students you want to get. And it requires some curriculum change also. So Woman's College went through that right after I was there, becoming co-ed. But it was trying to make the shift from a college to a university status while I was there and had been doing it for a while but very slowly. Now when you become co-ed, then I think that pressures you to make the transition a little more rapidly. But yes, there was an old-guard group in the faculty who, I can't remember specific 64:00things they would oppose. But there were the new young Turks, as I liked to think of them at the time, the new well-trained faculty who wanted to engage in research and wanted to teach top students and send them on to graduate schools. And Dick [Richard] Current was one of those, you see, and [Richard] Bardolph, and quite a number. But there also were those who had been appointed in the thirties and forties and change came very difficult for them.
WL: Was there much sense that Woman's College was undergoing a period ofchange? Was it clear, for example, was it clear that coeducation was in the future at that point?
GB: Some of us in administration took bets on two things: first, when it wouldoccur. And most people bet it would occur within five years. That's about the 65:00time I left. And the second thing we took bets on, What would be the name? Some thought it should be McIver University, but I thought it should be what it did become, UNC at Greensboro. Yes, there was talk of that, concern about it, and especially concern among the alumnae. They didn't like the idea, of course, and that had to be overcome over time. And maybe there are some diehards still. But there was more excitement among the younger faculty that this could occur and especially excitement that the institution could take on more of the responsibilities of a university. And this meant often graduate work, master's level first, and that - there was a lot of concern about that. I wish I knew how many departments offered a master's degree then. Do you know?
WL: Not very many. I think there was education, and aside from, well, the arts66:00and sciences, I don't believe any were at that point.
GB: Well, that's what I couldn't remember.
WL: Education, home economics.
GB: Physical education, probably.
WL: Physical education, yeah.
GB: But the consolidation really didn't mean that it should become auniversity. It was part of the Consolidated University [of North Carolina] but it was still called a college. And so the big change came when it became UNCG but that was in the offing. I think most people could see it was coming. 67:00
WL: Were you getting much in the way of signals from Chapel Hill this might bein the future?
GB: I frankly can't remember. I really do not remember any discussions orcomments by Bill Friday. I really don't know.
WL: Let me ask you what your conception or your perception of Woman's Collegewas within the Consolidated University. Was it - it was obviously the junior partner among the three. [The University of North Carolina at] Chapel Hill was the flagship institution. [North Carolina] State [College] had risen considerably by the late fifties. What kind of role did it fulfill? What was its mission, do you think?
GB: Well, to be a very good woman's college with graduate work in appropriateprofessional fields, just the three you've mentioned, and that was it. And I 68:00think when appropriations time came, why we felt that we were usually sucking off the hind tit, as they say, and we felt perhaps a little inferiority complex. I probably felt it a little, but members of the faculty perhaps felt it more even than I did. I mean, I knew what I was being asked to do, what kind of college we were supposed to be and so on. That probably played a role in my deciding to leave. No dissatisfaction but probably a little feeling - well, I don't know when we'd ever, we'd never get on a role of equality with Chapel Hill and shouldn't. With NC State, maybe, I don't know. And so -
WL: You mentioned the, you suggested the comparison of Florida State. That's a69:00very valuable comparison, I think, in the history of Woman's College and UNCG [The University of North Carolina at Greensboro]. The difference, I suppose, in Florida is that there was not a North Carolina State in Florida. There was not a -
GB: That's right. The flagship university was also the land grant institution.It was combined, you see, and there was only the university. And so when they changed Florida State to a university in '48, why all of a sudden it made the move to co-ed and to university status. And that - it just takes a long time to 70:00achieve university status in reality.
WL: I suppose, on the other hand, there must have been a kind of intimacy amongthe three, having only three institutions within the Consolidated University compared to the post-1971 structure with sixteen or even the post-1965 structure with four and then six. Was there a good deal of interaction? To what extent was there interaction among the three?
GB: The chancellors met monthly with President Friday and there was a good dealof interaction there, a very close friendship I formed with John Caldwell at [North Carolina] State College, a great man. Boston [?] was in one year, I think. I didn't get to know him so well and I guess Bob [Robert] House or, no, 71:00Bill [William] Aycock came in what year, about '58 or '59? I don't remember the other meetings with the chancellors but I guess I was there. Anyway, we did have those meetings and they helped a lot, and Bill Friday helped hold everything together. And there was not much rivalry, at least, between the Woman's College and the other two. Now probably between State and Chapel Hill there had been and continued to be a good deal of rivalry and that sort of thing. But we were just sort of out in outfield more or less and not one of the principal players, I guess. 72:00
WL: And you all would meet monthly? The three chancellors plus Bill. Did BillFriday come frequently to Greensboro? Did he have regular times that he would come?
GB: I can't answer that. I'm sure I'd remember it if he came regularly. I don'tremember his coming and meeting with our faculty. Perhaps he did, I don't know.
WL: Tell me more about the students at Woman's College. Everything I hear aboutthem indicates that they were first-rate students. Obviously almost all of them women - all of them women. You suggested a little bit earlier there was a degree of restiveness under the rather strict system of controls.
GB: Now this was the beginning of the period of beatniks, and who was it wrote73:00that book, On the Road?
WL: Jack Kerouac?
GB: Kerouac, yeah. That was his period. And I remember a group of our studentsat about the time that I came, came to be known as the "black stockings." Did you ever hear of that?
GB: They wore their dresses maybe a little shorter than others, with long blackstockings. And they were a protest group, and they wanted to be allowed to have cocktails on campus. I think smoking was no longer an issue then, I don't remember. But they thought alcohol should be on campus. And I don't remember about the social regulations, whether they need to be in at eleven o'clock or twelve o'clock. They would be protesting whatever they were. But they were a good group of students. And I had the feeling that Katherine Taylor related well to them rather than being antagonistic. I may be wrong in that. But we 74:00integrated the student body, Whatley Pierson had done that. But when I got there we had five black students. And so it came time for the big college dance in the student union building and we were concerned as to what some of the men who came as dates for the girls might do about blacks in there. And we had some faculty spotted around, you know, to be sure that wasn't any trouble. And [inaudible] the black males who came with the black girls, they had on tuxedos and they were 75:00good dancers and they looked nicer than any of the other men. And there was no trouble whatsoever. But the first time, you see, we just weren't sure what would happen.
WL: That was the first integrated dance?
GB: I believe it was, yes.
WL: There must have been, this was a period of great uncertainty on the subjectof race. Wonder if you could elaborate a little bit more about integration. It had begun under Pierson?
GB: I think the first students had been admitted the year before but it seemsto me this was the first dance that we had while I was there. It was the first 76:00dance when the Negro students were there, so maybe they were recruited, or admitted the spring before I came. I can't recall that for sure.
WL: What other sorts of special arrangements had to be made in order to makeintegration work?
GB: I don't recall any other arrangements or really any problems on the campus.
WL: I was going to say that I gather they had to, the dormitories had to workout something. Maybe that occurred under Pierson, but certain wings of dormitories were reserved for black students. 77:00
GB: Oh, I didn't know that. If that was true while I was there, I didn't knowit. I mean, I don't remember it.
WL: Did you have much contact with students generally?
GB: Yes. I was trying to think whether I formed a student advisory committee. Idid that at Florida State and later at Furman [University]. But I did feel that I had contacts with students a good deal. And I think we formed an advisory committee that met over in my home. I've just been trying to think of that because I did it at Florida State and at Furman. But I felt that I did have a good relationship with a number of the students. This is interesting, but before I went there, my wife's mother found a handkerchief in a department store that was embroidered on it was, "I like girls." And she knew I was coming to Woman's College, and she gave me that. And so the first convocation I wore it. And I'll never forget walking across the campus - these hundreds of girls walking, you see, and this one tall girl, taller than any of the others, and I spoke to her. "Where are you from?" She was from Maryland. "Why did you come here?" She says, 78:00"I wanted to play golf." And it was Carol Mann, who went on later to become the great woman professional golfer. But I told the students in my first convocational address - and I'm sure I was very nervous - but I said, "Now I've got on my Woman's College handkerchief, and there's something on it embroidered. If you want to read it, you'll have to get close enough to me to read it." And so I didn't tell them what was on it. And so I'd see little girls coming up, shy, trying to read what my handkerchief said. I don't think I would use it these days of male chauvinism, but it was an icebreaker with the students. And 79:00we sent a group of the drama students to Japan, and they came back and brought me a handkerchief in Japanese that said, "I like girls." At least they said it did that, I don't know how to translate it. But I think that was an icebreaker. And certainly the alumnae out in the state loved it. They loved to be thought of as girls. And I would use it when I went there. And once I had it on at a Rotary Club in Asheville. I was making speeches on the education of women everywhere. And I wore it and the television zoomed in on it and showed it and the AP [Associated Press] picked it up, and it said "This man has the right idea," or something. And I got letters from Woman's College alumnae from Baghdad, from Alaska, and from all over the country. They saw it in the AP release. And I said 80:00to my friends that they say any kind of publicity helps the college, and this is any kind. But I think we, I think we did well with our student relations.
WL: The college would have regular campus-wide convocations?
GB: Yes. They were weekly, I guess. I guess required - and we had differentspeakers would be brought in [sic]. I don't believe they were of a religious nature. I don't really remember much about these. I think students would have some of them for their own purposes. I believe they were weekly.
WL: And I guess it added a sense of kind of togetherness and coherence to haveeverybody in one place together, the whole student body.
GB: I think it undoubtedly served that function.
WL: Greensboro is often known nowadays for the famous sit-ins that took place81:00in February 1960 and thereafter.
GB: Oh yes, where it all started.
WL: And I guess in many respects you were in the middle of a lot of what wenton there. I wonder if you'd mind recalling what happened and what -
GB: Again, my recollection is hazy, but I have told the story pretty often, andI hope I'm sticking accurately to the facts. Incidentally, a student asked me to give a statement about this, a student working on a communications project. You familiar with that?
WL: Yeah, I know about it.
GB: And I did give him a statement over the phone which I had written out,because he sent me about four questions he wanted me to answer. I probably 82:00should go get that out and just use that, but I'll ad lib on it. One thing he asked me was, how did I first learn that we had three students participating in the sit-ins? And I frankly don't remember when I first learned about it. It seemed to me, I thought it started on a Monday, and I was frankly afraid for the safety of our students - in loco parentis was in vogue in those days - and felt 83:00a responsibility. So I recall asking the girls if their parents knew that they were doing this and they said yes. One was from Maryland and I forget just where they were from. But the mayor appointed an interracial committee on the sit-ins to try to resolve the problem and I was appointed to that. And I believe the president of Guilford [College], although his students were not involved, Clyde Milner. And some of the leading business people in town and the black college president from [North Carolina] A&T [State College] [Dr. Lewis C. Dowdy]. And the committee met, and, of course, the objective was to get the stores to integrate the lunch counters. The local managers of the stores were quite 84:00willing and ready, but the national offices in New York - and I think Woolworth and Kress was involved, both of the stores, I may be wrong. But the national offices would not agree to it. I think they saw losing business all over the South and this kind of thing. And this really made our local people very upset. And the sit-ins continued. And one Saturday the black students announced they were going to have a big march through downtown Greensboro, three o'clock Saturday afternoon. And the city officials were very worried that a riot might occur, because I believe one did later in Greensboro, some years later. But 85:00there were a great many redneck people around. And so the committee met Saturday morning, very concerned, and our students were there and the black students. There were about five there. And the objective of the committee was to get a cooling off period of two weeks that would hopefully enable pressure to be brought on the national offices of Kress and Woolworth to get them to integrate the lunch counters. And also a cooling off period was agreed to on Saturday morning which meant they wouldn't do the march through downtown Greensboro. And so we met and about eleven o'clock or 11:30, it was obvious that the students, 86:00black students, would not agree to the cooling off period of two weeks and not having the march through downtown Greensboro. The black college president called me off to the side and said, "Let's get our students together, let them get together and see if they can work it out." Well, I thought, now let's see, where can this meeting happen. And I was concerned frankly again for the safety of our students. And so I said, "All right, if the students want to, we'll meet over on your campus, and I will take my students over for the meeting." And so they agreed, and I took them over the left them. And I said, "Now you be sure and call me when the meeting is over," because I didn't want them riding across town with these black students because that could set off something, you see. So I 87:00went home to sweat it out. My wife was with her mother down in Jamaica or something for a week, so I was alone. And about, as I remember it, about one o'clock, the students called and said we've worked it out, my students called, we've worked it out and the A&T students agreed to two weeks cooling off period. And so everybody heaved a sigh of relief and they, our students were very happy about this having occurred. And everybody believed that the interracial committee was very sincere and doing everything possible to work it out. It was just the New York offices that were recalcitrant at the point. Well, in two weeks, they still had not agreed to integrate and so the students agreed to 88:00extending that to six weeks period. At the end of that time, the national offices still would not integrate and so then picketing resumed and our students participated and signs were made by our art department for the picketing. And I don't know how long the picketing went on but it was summer, I believe, before the lunch counters were integrated.
WL: There was a perception, I guess a real possibility, that that kind of awhite backlash - would you agree with this? Violence -
GB: There was very, very much concern over violence. I received a number ofunsigned - 89:00
WL: We were talking about the sit-ins and I guess one further question I haveabout that, I was wondering to what extent you felt as though you were under any pressure. Was there any pressure coming from the outside aside from threats from redneck whites? Did you receive any pressure from people in the community aside from those elements?
GB: No, not that I recall. The interracial committee working on the problem wasquite positive in their efforts to not just resolve the crisis but to get the lunch counters integrated. And the local managers were all ready to take that 90:00step, thought they should, but headquarters said no. I don't recall any calls about it, any pressure, just some unsigned, threatening kinds of communications.
WL: Certainly no pressure from the, either the state, anyone from the stategovernment, Chapel Hill certainly not.
GB: No. I believe the governor, after it was all over, made a favorable commentabout how it had been handled. I think he was favorably disposed to it and I don't recall anything else.
WL: Let's talk about some of the reasons or circumstances that you left Woman'sCollege for Florida State [University]. How did that happen? You decided to leave?
GB: I was very surprised when I got a telephone call from the chairman of theboard of regents in Florida. I did know that [Robert] Strozier [former president of Florida State University] had died. But I got this phone call, and he told me 91:00that they were looking for a president and would I be interested. And I said that I didn't know. He said well, come down, so I did. I had no thought about leaving, in fact, at this point. I remember I told the faculty nineteen years I figured before I would be sixty-five and I thought we'd accomplish a great deal in that time. And we were happy and I think we enjoyed Greensboro perhaps more than any other city where we had ever lived. My wife was extremely happy in the situation. She was doing a good job with the students and the alumnae and faculty wives. And so there was no push from behind or pull from the other end. It was an opportunity to go to already a good university, but one that I knew 92:00was on the move and would become much greater in academic recognition and -
WL: You felt as though the opportunities were greater at Florida State? Youfelt some frustration, some small frustration perhaps?
GB: Small, small, but not enough, no more than one would expect and - but tenthousand students and moving up. The salary wasn't much, I don't know whether it was any greater or not. It was very little. I think it was only about seventeen or eighteen thousand [dollars] or maybe something like that. It was no big salary in those days. That didn't enter into it. I guess, too, Florida being a 93:00magnet for so many people, I think it had an appeal. And another real factor for me was Leroy Collins. He had been chairman of the Democratic National Convention and I was much impressed with him on radio, television. And I knew he was governor, and I knew also he'd only be governor four months after I got there. But the fact that he was there and would still be around interested me in it. The chairman of the board of regents was a Princeton graduate, Phi Beta Kappa, and football player, and a captain of the football team. And he, Jack Daniel, was his name - famous whiskey - but Jack was a very impressive person. He understood higher education and he was very successful in the business world, 94:00wealthy, but he -
WL: How did - was it a long decision? Did it take much deliberation on yourpart? Or they called and you were familiar with the institution, already having considered it, I guess, several years before.
GB: That's right. I went down and visited and was well-impressed with thevarious deans that I had met. And Tallahassee's a pretty place. The chancellor's home was on campus, really just across the highway from the campus. And the chancellor's home in Greensboro is very nice, and it was run down a little. They 95:00had redecorated it, and it was very nice. This was a nice home, and it didn't - I think Mrs. Blackwell and I then went down, I believe, and it wasn't a difficult decision. It didn't take a long time, I don't remember how long. I hated to leave North Carolina, the university system and Bill Friday. We loved Woman's College and we thought it would become a university in time, but we opted to go to one that was already a university.
WL: And as you say was ten years ahead in terms of the process of -
GB: Twelve years it had been in the process and we still had another five years96:00to go or more. But Florida State is really a terrific academic place. Just recently they competed with the best universities in the country and got this government-financed computer center which is unbelievable. And nobody thought it was going to the South, much less Florida State. But they've done this in a number of ways. And it has the peaks of excellence, I used to emphasize that. We 97:00had them, but it's gone so far since then. And I was delighted when it went into the ACC [Atlantic Coast Conference], because, academically, that's where it ought to be rather than the Southeastern Conference.
WL: What sort of condition did you think Woman's College was when you left? Howwould you describe the, its mission, its problems, its strengths? When you left in - was this 1961, 1962?
GB: In September of '60. I was there just three years. I felt very good aboutthe Woman's College. As I say, I became convinced that it had been a very strong college in the past and then becoming affiliated with the university helped it somewhat more. Its mission was limited but I think appropriately so at that 98:00time. And I felt real good about it. I didn't think there were any glaring weaknesses except in the area of development fundraising, this sort of thing. Chapel Hill had moved on that about six or seven years earlier and had gotten a big fundraising program going other than just the alumni and [unclear]. I think that was the chief weakness at the time we left.
WL: But it perhaps might have been clear or was clear that the institution wasfacing change. You've already said that, that it was on the threshold of 99:00expansion in graduate programs, certainly coeducation as a public institution must have seemed inevitable.
GB: Right. It was really surprising that it came as slowly as it did. I don'tremember whether we at the university were taking any steps to try to hasten that process or not. If we were, I don't recall it. The alumnae were very worried about it, and you'd hear a lot on that. "Don't let us become co-ed." I had become very enamored of the concept of women's education and was invited to be a member of the Commission on the Education of Women, I guess under the American Council on Education. I remember Kathy McBride, president of Bryn Mawr, 100:00was chairman of it, and the Wellesley president was there, a good many. They were fine women's colleges, Vassar's president. And I was very much sold on the importance of the education of women but not necessarily in strictly women's colleges, because I knew all the arguments for that and I expounded many of them for the Woman's College separately while I was there. But I also knew the value of coeducation. I think the fact that I was an associate of Katherine Jocher at Chapel Hill, the first woman professor, and had always been liberal on the matter of the equality of women led me to have a special interest in the education of women, but not necessarily just restricted women's colleges.
WL: That concludes the questions I had unless you can think, there's anythingyou want to add, anything you think we've missed.
GB: Covered it pretty well.