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0:00 - Interview introduction

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Partial Transcript: SM: Today is April 17, 2011. My name is Sarah McNulty. I am the oral history interviewer for the African American [Institutional] Memory Project

Segment Synopsis: Interview introduction.

0:17 - Background

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Partial Transcript: SM: And I would like to start today, Ms. Brown, by talking about just your past.

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes her early life and education.

1:02 - Family

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Partial Transcript: SM: And can you tell us maybe about your family structure, about your parents and-

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes her parents and extended family.

3:28 - Subject interests

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Partial Transcript: SM: When you said that music was a strong influence in your life, you later became a music teacher, correct?

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes her interest in music, as well as her other academic interests in high school.

4:43 - UNCG vs Woman's College

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Partial Transcript: SM: Now, it's interesting. Woman's College changed over to UNC Greensboro when you were there. Do you identify yourself as someone who went to Woman's College, or someone who went to UNC Greensboro.

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes feeling like both an alum of UNC Greensboro and Woman's College.

5:43 - Decision to attend Woman's College

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Partial Transcript: SM: Why did you want to attend Woman's College?

AGB: I had no intentions of attending Woman's College. I had thought I would be a beautician.

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes her motivations in choosing to attend Woman's College, including a guidance counselor, and Woman's College's reputation as a first class music school.

9:21 - First semester on campus

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Partial Transcript: SM: Well, can you tell me about what it was like your first day on campus?

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes being roommates with Sina Reid, the living situation in Coit Hall dormitory, and advice from other black students.

12:39 - Academics

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Partial Transcript: SM: So, it was academically challenging?

AGB: Oh, yes.

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes her academic experience at UNCG/Woman's College, including it's difficulty and her trouble transitioning from high school.

15:48 - Studying Music Education

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Partial Transcript: SM: Yes, you were originally going to be a math major?

AGB: I thought I was. I thought that's what I wanted to be.

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes how she decided to become a music education major, and describes the music education program.

18:37 - Recreation

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Partial Transcript: SM: Well, did you-you said that school was hard, but did you enjoy school?

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes what she and her friends did for fun while at Woman's College./UNCG. Brown also describes her accompanist in the music education department, Anita Patterson.

21:03 - UNCG fundraising

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Partial Transcript: AGB: So ,when Meredith [Miriam Bradley] came over, I think that's her name, in Advancement.

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes her assistance with UNCG fundraising efforts.

22:21 - Living in the residence halls

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Partial Transcript: SM: Because I, unfortunately, as a graduate student I don't know too much about residence halls. Well, can you tell me about that it was like living in the residence halls? did you live in the same dorm all four years?

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes living in in Coit Hall, South Spencer Hall, and North Reynolds Hall. Brown also describes when McDonald's opened in Greensboro, and sent over hamburgers to the dorms.

25:04 - Civil Rights (part 1)

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Partial Transcript: AGB: And we ended up out little picket signs walking up and down Tate Street.

Segment Synopsis: Brown briefly describes a civil rights protest on Tate Street.

25:26 - Karen Parker

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Partial Transcript: AGB: One of the good friends of mine that came in in '61 with us is Karen Parker.

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes Karen Parker, a classmate and friend of hers at UNCG.

27:06 - Civil Rights (part 2)

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Partial Transcript: SM: So, you said that there was some civil rights activity, but you didn't actively participate in it?

Segment Synopsis: Brown continues to describe her activities with the civil rights movement in Greensboro.

28:03 - Attending church in Greensboro

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Partial Transcript: SM: And, so, you never- I mean you would really just stay around campus; you didn't venture out to Carolina Theater, Woolworth's or anything else downtown?

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes going to church while a student in Greensboro. Brown specifically mentions United Methodist Church at College Place.

31:13 - Discrimination and interaction with white students

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Partial Transcript: AGB: But the experiences that I can remember are not with students. It would be something like that when you talk about being discriminated against.

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes her experiences with discrimination, and her interactions (both positive and negative) with white students while at Woman's College/UNCG.

37:39 - Glee Club and Chorus

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Partial Transcript: SM: Did you get to know what the Glee Club? You said you were part of the Glee Club. Were you part of it all four years?

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes her experiences in both the Glee Club and Chorus while at Woman's College/UNCG. Brown describes trips, learning music, and conductor Dr. Richard Cox.

43:04 - Discrimination and Civil Rights (part 2)

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Partial Transcript: SM: And you say that you felt like it wasn't students who discriminated- white students weren't the ones who discriminated against black students.

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes her memories of discrimination from staff at Woman's College. Brown also describes a few memories of the Greensboro Sit-Ins.

47:04 - Class jackets

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Partial Transcript: SM: And class jackets, I guess, were very symbolic.

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes her memory of Woman's College class jackets.

49:07 - Assemblies and events

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Partial Transcript: SM: Do you remember any other kinds of events that stand out, graduation, or orientation, anything that-?

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes assemblies and wedding fashion shows at Womans' College.

52:39 - Men on campus

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Partial Transcript: SM: That is interesting. So, obviously, you were there at an important time, the first male on campus. Can you tell me what that was like?

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes her memories of men on campus at UNCG.

55:05 - Interaction with Bennet College and A&T

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Partial Transcript: SM: Well, what was- we said earlier that a lot of women would date men from A&T. They would come to dances and things like that. Did you guys interact with other students at A&T?

Segment Synopsis: Brown discusses interaction with Bennet college and A&T students.

57:14 - Thoughts on transferring

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Partial Transcript: SM: So, did you ever consider transferring?

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes why she decided not to transfer to a different college.

61:29 - Favorite aspects of college

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Partial Transcript: SM: Well, what would you say was your favorite aspect of college? We've talked about kind of the hardships, but was something you enjoyed?

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes enjoying the exposure she got to the arts while attending college.

63:53 - Memories of assassinations

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Partial Transcript: SM: Well, one thing we're trying to do is, we talked a little bit about this is, kind of place you in history, in US history, about what was going on in the world at this time.

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes her memories of the assassinations of John F. Kennedy and Malcolm X.

68:46 - March on Washington

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Partial Transcript: SM: Do you remember anything about the March on Washington that happened in 1963.

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes her memories of listening to the 1963 March on Washington over the radio.

72:44 - Memories of protests

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Partial Transcript: SM: And, now, in 1963- everybody always remembers the Civil Rights Movement in Greensboro in 1960, which was the Woolworth's. But in actuality the 1963 movement was much more volatile.

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes memories of Civil Rights protests in Greensboro.

74:54 - Memories of the Vietnam War

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Partial Transcript: SM: And you also went to college right at the escalation of the Vietnam, the Vietnam War.

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes her memories of the Vietnam war, including dating a soldier in the Army.

76:30 - Civil Rights (part 3)

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Partial Transcript: SM: And the last kind of moment in history was the Civil Rights Act of 1964 which Johnson, President Johnson enacted to desegregate, basically, all public spaces.

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes her memories of the Civil Rights movement, including the Civil Rights Act of 1964

79:04 - Career and life after graduation

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Partial Transcript: SM: One thing we wanted to know, too, is kind of about your life after Woman's College. So, obviously, we talked about you're a teacher. But what did you do immediately after graduation?

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes her life and career after graduation, including volunteering, and working at schools in Greensboro, Seagrove, Farmer, Trinity, and Tabernacle (all schools in the Greensboro, High Point, Asheboro area).
Brown also describes her husband and children. In addition, Brown describes her support of Bennett College.

98:23 - Classmates

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Partial Transcript: SM: Do you know JoAnne [Smart Drane]?

Segment Synopsis: Brown describes several UNCG classmates that she is acquanted with, including JoAnne Smart Drane, Claudetter Burroughs-White and Karen Parker.

102:17 - Message to future students

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Partial Transcript: SM: My last question is, what do you want future students and scholars, or people interested in this subject to know about your experience as you were one of the first.

Segment Synopsis: Brown's message to future students and others who might read her oral history.

104:27 - Conclusion

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Partial Transcript: SM: That's so true. Well, I don't have any more questions unless there is anything else you want to add?

Segment Synopsis: Interview conclusion.

0:00

SM: Today is April 17, 2011. My name is Sarah McNulty. I am the oral history interviewer for the African American [Institutional] Memory Project. I'm at the home of-

AGB: Alice Garrett Brown, Class of '65.

SM: And I would like to start today, Ms. Brown, by talking about just your past. Can you kind of give us the information leading up to the time you were at UNCG?

AGB: Okay. I was born here in Mocksville in 1943. I went to elementary school at what was called then, Davie County Training School. I left there in the eighth grade and went to stay with my cousin so that I would get a little more exposure in subject matter to prepare me a little better for the future. So, I graduated in 1961 from Price High School in Salisbury.

SM: Okay. And can you tell us maybe about your family structure, about your 1:00parents and-

AGB: I come from a caring extended family that helped me survive. My mother went to-well, my mother's mother died in childbirth. And she was reared by an aunt. After she finished high school she went to Baltimore, Maryland where her father lived and studied to be a beautician at Madame C. J. Walker School before she came back to Mocksville. She was pregnant with me. She and my father were estranged. He is someone who has never been a part of my life. One of the best things about it is that she came back home. She came back to an extended family 2:00that had about five teachers in it. The person that had reared her was a teacher, and consequently education became important. My extended family included her first cousins. Like I said, one of them took me into her home with her husband, and her mother, and her son as a family unit, and I went to high school for four years at Salisbury. Two of her first cousins took turns paying for my piano lessons, which I started in the third grade. So, that started me on my path towards music. So, my family structure was not ideal being reared by a 3:00single parent on a very, very low income. When I look back over it, we said we were in poverty and didn't know it. But the blessed part was that the extended family stepped in on my mother's side, they played a very important role.

SM: Definitely. When you said that music was a strong influence in your life, you later became a music teacher, correct?

AGB: Yes.

SM: Were there any other things that you were interested in in school?

AGB: Well, my mother always said that she was good in math. And, so, I thought I was supposed to be good in math. In high school I did equally well in all the subjects. There wasn't one that I remember exceling [in] more than another. I 4:00think the main thing about high school was that we were in a nurturing atmosphere. The teachers were as important as the subjects. I can remember one after another of the teachers that I had. They just took you under their wings and took a special interest in you. So, I can't say that I enjoyed one subject better than the other. But I thought I was on my way to being a mathematician, and that first semester at Woman's College I knew that wasn't going to work.

SM: Now, it's interesting. Woman's College changed over to UNC Greensboro when you were there. Did you identify yourself as someone who went to Woman's College, or someone who went to UNC Greensboro?

AGB: Schizophrenic. For a long time it was Woman's College. At the end, as I 5:00started to go back, I identified with UNCG. And there was awhile before I didn't look back. That took a while. One of the things that happened. And I guess people start looking around and seeing who's available and who's out there and who's coming back. So, in the '80s I was on the Alumni Board. So, by that time I had started coming back, and I was identifying with it as UNCG by that time.

SM: Why did you want to attend Woman's College?

AGB: I had no intentions of attending Woman's College. I had thought I would be a beautician. I loved what my mother did. And I loved the way she was in the 6:00community, and she was just a go-to person. And I was at-from her knee, all along, I was with her when she was doing hair. So, I thought, "Well, I'll be a beautician." I couldn't be a secretary, because I never learned to type. And I thought, "Maybe if I went to college, I might go to Central." My aunts thought I would probably go to a Presbyterian school. Every last one of my mother's first cousins had gone to Johnson C. Smith. And the only reason I went to Woman's College was that the guidance counselor looked at people who were taking the 7:00PSAT and identified some of us. And there were five of us that were honored in 1961 as having graduated with honors, high honors. By the time we took the SAT she said based on our high school grades [and] our SAT scores, she would predict that we would do all right. And I have a good friend that we called "The Brain" that went to NC State. He did not finish from NC State. He went a couple of years and then left and went into the military.

SM: You say his name was "The Brain," or "La Brain."

AGB: We called him "The Brain."

SM: "The Brain," Okay.

8:00

AGB: And if you saw the size of his head, you would say, "Yeah, I see." He was really, really brainy. And there was probably the smartest one said she did not want to go. She was not going to be a guinea pig. So, she went to Hampton Institute. So, I did not apply anywhere except Woman's College. And this was partly because I didn't want to spend money applying to different places. And the only reason was that this guidance counselor had me convinced that Woman's College was the place for me. And, so, I went.

SM: Now, UNCG is known now for its music school. It's very much a place for people who are interested in music education. Was it like that at Woman's College?

AGB: Yes.

SM: Yes.

AGB: It was. It had an excellent renowned music school. When I look at some of 9:00the things that we did, I would say definitely it was top notch. Some of the operas, some of the performance majors, which I was not. It was top notch.

SM: Well, can you tell me about what it was like your first day on campus?

AGB: My first day on campus. I was taken by my uncle, and I did not know what to expect. I didn't know if I was going to have a white roommate, black roommate.

SM: Had you visited the campus before, or was this your first time?

AGB: I had seen it and not really been around. So, my first day going in Coit Hall, taking whatever I had with me, and meeting my roommate, I thought, "Okay, 10:00so, she's black." But-

SM: Who were your roommates?

AGB: Sina McGimpsey Reid.

SM: How do you spell that?

AGB: M-C-G-Sina is S-I-N-A. M-C-G-I-M-P-S-E-Y.

SM: Okay. And it was Reid?

AGB: Right, her married name is Reid.

SM: Did she graduate?

AGB: Yes, she married in- She graduated in three and a half years.

SM: Oh, wow.

AGB: She and I went to summer school together in Chapel Hill. I had to make up some grades. She was getting ahead. So, there were three other blacks in the dorm. The interesting thing was-and I don't know if anybody else has said this, was that the five of us had the whole area to ourselves. And that was the first 11:00semester, and the second semester the dorm matron, counselor, resident counselor said, "You know, we're opening it up to anybody who wants to come down." And some did. I don't remember how many. But there were some others that came on down and joined us. But that was odd to me. The other upper class black students tended to have a corner room in the upper classmen dorms and they were large. And, so, they were really sort of-had the best since they were really what-isolated, segregated within integration. So, we were sort of pockets of us 12:00around. But they mentored us. They tried to give us some advice, much to their chagrin probably that we didn't take it seriously that first semester. And, then, when I got my first semester grades I cried so. I said, "I cannot go back." And my mother said, "You don't have a choice." Like, "You have to go back." So, I went back.

SM: So, it was academically challenging?

AGB: Oh, yes.

SM: Really?

AGB: I did not know what I was in for.

SM: Really? Did you feel like you weren't prepared from high school?

AGB: No. No, I wasn't. And I wasn't alone. There were white students from smaller high schools, maybe rural settings that scuffled, too. But that didn't 13:00help. It didn't help when you saw your grades that you weren't in the boat alone.

SM: What did you do to try to get better academic standing? Did you just have to study more, or?

AGB: Well, math was my Waterloo. And I remember going to the math teacher the first semester I got a D, and I went to him. And his response, which I think was very callous, was that, "Well, some just have an aptitude, and some don't." I have found the picture of the person that was the faculty advisor. He took me to 14:00register for my classes. I can remember walking across campus with him and talking with him. And he had a small group of students. And I don't remember how many were in a group, maybe eight or ten, I'm not sure. But that was-the fact that he was so nice was a consolation.

SM: Do you remember what his name was?

AGB: I-I'll look at it. Jones. It will take me a minute.

SM: And he was just somebody to help students, or was he a professor as well?

AGB: He was a professor. He was a math teacher. Joseph Jones. And the second semester I did worse than the first semester in there. And I got an [D?]. And 15:00went back in the fall to take the exam and got an F. The next year-well, that year I took that second semester math over with this gentleman and got a B out of it. And I don't know if it was going back over it again, or that he explained it better, or I understood it better; that was a big help for my self-esteem to see that I could pass it. But I definitely had to change my major.

SM: Yes, you were originally going to be a math major?

AGB: I thought I was. I thought that's what I wanted to be.

SM: Well, how did you decide on music?

AGB: Because, actually, I took music theory my freshman year. I did better in 16:00music theory than I did in some of the other classes. And I was in the chorus my freshman year. No, the Glee Club. It wasn't the main chorus, with the music majors-it was the Glee Club. So, I had-I must have been toying with music to begin with to take theory. And I took theory on the advice of-and I can't remember her name. But we had someone who was a music major. And I might see her in there [referring to the yearbook]. But it was like this, if you are going to do music, this is the basis. You have to, you know, this is something you've got to have. So, see how you do. And I did.

17:00

SM: And you were a piano player?

AGB: I played the piano.

SM: Did you play any other instruments, or was that-

AGB: No. For education majors, you had to take a semester for each instrument in the family. And, so, one semester played the violin, and one semester played the cello. And when I think of the teachers that may have had the most influence, it was probably Miss [Elizabeth] Cowling.

SM: How you spell that?

AGB: C-O-W-A-N. I had her for music appreciation. I had her for music history, and, then, I had her for cello. And one of the things she said, "I'll pass you all, but make sure you don't think that you can go out and teach this instrument." It was like, "All right. We hear you. Just pass us." And, then, we 18:00had to take a woodwind. We had to take a brass.

SM: What did you play in those families?

AGB: I played clarinet for the woodwind, and for the brass I tried to play the trombone. I tried to play the trombone.

SM: The piano is your forte?

AGB: That was the major. Instead of concentrating, I took an equal amount of hours in piano and voice.

SM: Piano and voice, okay. Well, did you-you said that school was hard, but did you enjoy school?

AGB: Not especially, not especially. It was something that I knew I had to do. There were some moments-I tried to think, what was fun. Not very much. Playing cards with the girls, having jam sessions.

19:00

SM: What do you mean by "jam sessions?"

AGB: Just sitting around talking, laughing. I was having fun. We had movies on campus. I didn't date. I had a boyfriend that was in the army. So I didn't date. We had some guys that would come over from A&T. I can remember Ezell Blair, [Jr.], because he was one of the four with the Sit-ins. Harold Reid was one, and, of course, he and my roommate married. But I didn't go out. I have the person that accompanied me in voice-is here in Mocksville.

SM: Really?

AGB: And, so, I talked with her two nights ago, last Friday night, to ask her 20:00some things that she remembered that were going on. And I told her, I said, in this book it says that music majors-it's like you spent all of the time in the music building, and that's what you do. That's what you do. So, it didn't leave a lot of time for fun.

SM: What was the person's name that was your accompanist?

AGB: Anita Patterson.

SM: Anita Patterson. And is she white or black?

AGB: She's white.

SM: She's white, Okay. So, was she someone you were friends with in college?

AGB: No, That would be a way of making money, you know, to accompany someone. And I'd never met her. And we became friends. But now we are pretty close.

SM: Was she a student at the time?

AGB: Yes. We're both the Class of '65.

21:00

SM: Okay.

AGB: So, when Meredith [Miriam Bradley] came over, I think that's her name, in Advancement. Anita had written a letter to the chancellor about the Quad. And I wondered if that's how she was identified. Or maybe she was identified because of the financial contribution she's been making.

SM: Is this Anita or?

AGB: This is Anita.

SM: Okay.

AGB: And, so, when she [Miriam Bradley] came over from UNCG, Anita called and asked me if I-she checked to see if I could sit in. And I did. The two of us sat in together, talked about the Quad and the architectural design. I [unclear] in there, and what they are going to-the design of it, what they are going to put 22:00in it, and how they're trying to get money and name rooms after people.

SM: And is this about like saving the Quad or is this-Okay. So, this is pretty recently?

AGB: Yes.

SM: Okay.

AGB: It's been a couple of months ago.

SM: Yes, they are really having trouble about that. Well, speaking of the Quad, I mean, was Coit on the Quad?

AGB: Yes.

SM: Because I, unfortunately, as a graduate student I don't know too much about the residence halls. Well, can you tell me about what it was like living in the residence halls? Did you live in the same dorm all four years?

AGB: No. I kept the same roommate for three and a half years.

SM: And she graduated?

AGB: She graduated in three and a half years. And, then, I had another roommate, Irene Cooper, Irene Cooper Harrington. And she graduated, and I don't know-she was probably the Class of '66. I can't say that I became buddy-buddy with anyone 23:00in particular that was not of my race. We went from there-from Coit to South Spencer. South Spencer I can remember being a little closer. Seems like it was-I don't know if the dorm rooms, or the halls were smaller, or just that I was getting accustomed to it. So large and I won't say cold, but it started getting warmer, you know, and from there we went to North Reynolds. Some of the 24:00things-we had-we would gather together in the lounge. I can remember when McDonald's first came to town. And we got-it was on Summit Avenue. And they sent over these little tiny hamburgers, little, little, tiny hamburgers. But it was like, "Oh, man, this is something new." It was like we didn't go to Boar and Castle. We didn't go to Ham's.

SM: Would you go to Yum-Yum's?

AGB: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yum-Yum's was one of the favorite places. The Soda Shop was really-it wasn't a sit-down at the counter thing then.

SM: It was just called the Soda Shop?

25:00

AGB: Yes. That was on Tate Street. And we ended up our little picket signs walking up and down Tate Street. I didn't, and most of us did not go, downtown Greensboro.

SM: Really?

AGB: We did what we had to do on Tate Street. One of the good friends of mine that came in in '61 with us is Karen Parker. After two years she left and went to Chapel Hill, majored in journalism. She was interviewed by Fox News in February. So, I keep in touch with her.

SM: Because she works at ECU, right? Is that what I understand?

AGB: No. She has worked at newspapers in L.A., Minnesota, Salt Lake City, I 26:00think. She started with the Winston-Salem Journal when she was in high school. And when-almost time to retire she came back home. And went back to the Winston-Salem Journal, and she's been retired like, oh, November or December.

SM: I thought for some reason she was-one student is like a dean or something at ECU. But maybe it's somebody else.

AGB: But she was active on whatever was at Chapel Hill. I don't know-whatever the main street was. But she's brought me some pictures and she's gone back for reunions, and they recognize people who were active in the sit-ins in Chapel 27:00Hill. And she was one.

SM: So, you said that there was some civil rights activity, but you didn't actively participate in it?

AGB: Yes.

SM: You did or did not?

AGB: We did.

SM: Oh, you did?

AGB: We participated. We were on Tate Street.

SM: Anywhere else besides the Soda Shop? Were you targeting other places?

AGB: Well, that was mainly it. And Yum-Yum's you weren't going to go in and sit down anyway. You just got your ice cream cone and came on back out.

SM: Was there anywhere to sit at Yum-Yum's at the time?

AGB: I don't remember.

SM: I know that Yum-Yum's has changed locations.

AGB: Yes.

SM: Because I don't know if the current one is where-

AGB: No. When we were there, it was on the opposite side of the street. Yes, and I don't even remember if there was a counter. But I know at the Soda Shop it was. And it was off limits.

28:00

SM: And, so, you never-I mean you would really just stay around campus; you didn't venture out to Carolina Theater, Woolworth's or anything else downtown?

AGB: No. Mainly, going off campus for me was going to church, and I've seen a picture where they have the church vans, buses that would come and pick up students. At first we went to some black churches. My roommate was a leader, and I was a follower. And she became active in the United Methodist Church. They would call it [unclear]. But United Methodist at College Place. On Sunday afternoons we went over there. The first time I went to College Place we went 29:00with a number of students. When I say "a number," it might have been seven, maybe, black students. And, of course, we were ushered upstairs. That wasn't necessarily a good feeling. And to go back later when my husband became district superintendent of the Greensboro District of the Methodist Church, College Place was one of the places that we went to a Christmas party. And I thought, "Oh, my."

SM: How things have changed.

AGB: How things have changed. How progress has been made.

SM: Was College Place-it was a church? But was it just for students, or was it-

AGB: No.

SM: It was just a regular church that welcomed college students. Do you remember where it was?

AGB: It's in the same location.

SM: Oh.

30:00

AGB: You've got what? Weatherspoon [Art Museum].

SM: Oh, it's right across the street.

AGB: Right across the street.

SM: Yes, okay.

AGB: That's it. We went to First Presbyterian several times. And, then, we started going to West Market Street [United Methodist], and that's where we ended up going. I particularly liked the minister, Doctor Bowles; I think he was a little too progressive for some of the members. Some of the sermons that he preached were justice-is-coming sermons. I remember one Sunday morning by this time Sina and I were the only ones that were going. Everybody else was going somewhere else. Mostly Institutional Baptist, which is on West Market Street, which is a black church. But Sina went in first. I went in second. And this lady 31:00came and sat down beside of me and, then, looked at me like, and then she got up and moved. But the experiences that I can remember are not with students. It would be something like that when you talk about being discriminated against. Or it might be at the bus stop. When you're getting ready to catch the city bus. And somebody would come by and yell something out the window. It was more that kind of thing.

SM: So, would you sit with-the dining halls were not segregated?

AGB: No.

SM: So, would white and black students sit together?

AGB: We, basically, segregated ourselves. We sort of hung out together. Now, there were some that did not. And I can't tell you who did not. But I would 32:00guess that Diane Oliver would be a person who did not. One of the reasons I remember Diane is that she was such a-her picture is in here working on the year book maybe or newspaper staff. She was just a topnotch smart girl who went to France after graduation. And was killed, I think it might have been a motorcycle accident or bike accident or something like that. So, that would make me remember her. But, basically some of us went out of our way to socialize across 33:00races, and some of us didn't, and I was one of the ones that didn't. By the time we got to North Reynolds we had two white friends, and I'm not going to even remember their names. Janis was the first name of one. If I look hard enough, I'll find it. And I can't think of her roommate's name. But we would go places together. And even off campus. Because a lot of them worked at a restaurant. But there-those two attitudes were-uh-oh, those two attitudes were not progressive. 34:00Do you want to move?

SM: We may have to. Neighbors ruin everything. Sorry about that. This microphone is so sensitive. It just picks up everything.

AGB: Well, I hate to talk when I know a microphone is on. I'm drawing a blank. I can't stand my voice.

SM: You're doing great.

AGB: I can't stand to hear myself.

SM: I love those chairs, the piano.

AGB: That was from China.

SM: And we can sit on the couch and put this on the table.

35:00

AGB: Okay.

SM: Do you think that would be better? We can close the doors, maybe.

[Unclear]

AGB: I don't even know what I was saying.

SM: Okay, let's go back. You were talking about some of the white students, 36:00doing things with them.

AGB: Oh, we-Janis and her roommate, we were friends, but they were not progressive. I can remember Martin Luther King's Nobel Peace Prize would be something-one of them would say, "He's not deserving of that" and was just turned off by that. And another thing that turned-and it wasn't Janis as much as it was the other-her roommate was-. Cassius Clay [Muhammed Ali]. At the time he was Cassius Clay. But he was just so boastful and she just could not stand it. And I thought, "Okay." But there was-it was like being accepted because we knew 37:00each other. And that happens in a lot of settings that people. It's like, "You're the exception." You know, "You're different." But we accepted them, and they accepted us. But beyond that, it was like seeing the system. We wouldn't see the system that had done a number on black people, so.

SM: Did you get to know what the Glee Club? You said you were part of the Glee Club. Were you part of it all four years?

AGB: No, I started in the Glee Club two years and then changed to the chorus for the last two years.

SM: Okay. And those were mixed of white and black students, correct?

AGB: Yes.

SM: Correct?

AGB: Yes, but not-not enough to make a difference. Not enough to matter.

38:00

SM: Do you have any memories about what you did in Glee Club and in the chorus?

AGB: In Glee Club my voice teacher was also-well, I wasn't taking voice. But the Glee Club teacher became my voice teacher. So, he already knew me. We had concerts. The first one was at Christmas. And my whole family, this extended part of my mother's-several of them came over to the concert. I was talking to Anita about being in such a fog when President Kennedy received an honorary degree from Chapel Hill in 1961. They'd put both groups together, and we went 39:00down. And Anita said why she didn't go was that she was struggling with biology. But she knew she had to stay and study. Well, I was struggling with math, but I didn't have sense enough to know to stay and study. But that was basically it. I learned-was exposed to music that never heard of. I had to sing songs in Italian and German and, ah, that was really stretching my experience, my life experiences. When we were in the chorus we went to Louisville, Kentucky to sing at a national music educators' conference. I remember that bus trip going over the mountains. By the time-then I had some friends that were music majors. So, 40:00all of us were there together, so.

SM: Did you have to audition for these, or did you just sign up?

AGB: I-I don't remember auditioning. I think for chorus I might have had to audition for Glee Club, but I don't think I did. And for chorus if you were a music major that was it, so.

SM: And was chorus just for juniors and seniors?

AGB: No.

SM: No?

AGB: No, it was for-if you came in and declared you were a music major, or you might have had to audition. I'm not sure. But I looked at the Class of '67, and I see two music majors in the Class of '67 that are black that were in the 41:00chorus-in the choir.

SM: Why did you change from Glee Club to chorus, was there any reason?

AGB: Glee Club was not as hard. Glee Club was more for non-music majors. And the choir was for music majors. Although everybody, I'm sure, wasn't a music major. But all the music majors that were singing, they were in the choir. Plus, by that time, I probably had a course with Dr. Cox.

SM: That was the-

AGB: That was the choir director.

SM: Do you know his first name?

AGB: Richard.

SM: Richard?

AGB: Had conducted-maybe it was just conducted. I'd have to go back to see.

42:00

SM: And it says on your yearbook-we had a copy. But it's your senior year, actually. I can give this to you if you want it. It says you were part of Mu Phi Epsilon [International Professional Music Fraternity].

AGB: Yes.

SM: Was that a music fraternity?

AGB: It was. It was honorary, and I did not get in there till my senior year. In this one, I'm not in there. And, so, I had to pull up those grades.

SM: Now, was it just your grades in music classes, or just overall, you had to have an overall GPA?

AGB: I tell you what, my music grades definitely mattered. Because by the time I was a junior and senior I was making A's & B's in my music classes. So, that helped. It helped whatever had gone before.

43:00

SM: Right. And you say that you felt like it wasn't students who discriminated-white students weren't the ones who discriminated against black students.

AGB: I don't remember any really racist remarks or anything. There might have been some made, but I don't remember. It was just they did their thing, went their way for the most part. We did our thing. Went our way for the most part. And, then, every now and then there was someone that you were friendly with. But I don't have any incident that really stands out.

SM: What about teachers or staff or administrators?

AGB: No, I think they were friendly except it took me-I can still-I can remember 44:00the math teacher who told me maybe I just couldn't do it. I could remember him better than I could remember the one that was nice and friendly. I had to get the book to see his face to put a name with the face. And I thought, "That's not right." But that's just the way it was. I don't remember any teachers, other than this one, that I thought was not being fair. One teacher that I remember and I've looked through it [the yearbook], and think I might have her right, was a world history teacher. And she was the one that was like almost saying, "Seize 45:00the day, take this opportunity. Go out and march. Get-speak up for your rights." But she was the only one that I ever remember in my classes saying anything like that.

SM: Do you remember her name?

AGB: No, I've looked, and I thought, "This might have been her." But I'm not positive. So, I won't say. And I said, "I wonder what the reaction would have been if they had known that she was saying that." The reason I say that is that some things were going on a couple of years before that I didn't know about. Until-I don't know why they started looking at the history after-oh, what was it, two years ago when they had February 1, [1960] celebration?

46:00

SM: That was last year, the 50th anniversary.

AGB: Was that last year? Was it only last year?

SM: Yes.

AGB: But the fact that someone had written someone's parent to say that she was participating in the Sit-ins with A&T and Bennett students. Oh, I didn't know that that was going on, that was the attitude at that time. There's a lot that you don't know. It's good that you don't know it, that you're naive about some things.

SM: Yes, I remember reading about the Woman's College students who were very important in the-. It's one thing when black students were protesting. But it got wider attention when white students were protesting. And they got in trouble for wearing their class jackets. And the chancellor basically said, "I don't care if the black students wear their class jackets, but white students aren't 47:00allowed to." And class jackets, I guess, were very symbolic.

AGB: Oh, man, yes.

SM: Do you remember what color yours was?

AGB: Mine was navy blue.

SM: Navy blue, and do you still have it?

AGB: I have it. Navy blue with that emblem on the pocket. And you had a special date when you donned your jacket. You had a big ceremony and everything.

SM: Now, would people wear their class jackets just out and about to class, or was it only for special occasions?

AGB: I would tend to think it would be more for special occasion, but I'm not sure. I mean if I wore it to class all the time I'd have to have it cleaned a lot. I'm not sure that I did.

SM: Do you remember, you said like-one thing we want to know was about different kind of events that went on campus. Was there a ceremony when you got your class jacket?

48:00

AGB: Yes.

SM: What was that like?

AGB: It was like-if I remember correctly, it was outdoors. It's like everybody assembling.

SM: All grades, or just your class?

AGB: Your class when it was your time. You had your special ceremony. I don't remember who took part in it. I know Sue Medlin was the class president. And, of course, that means she still is. So, I don't remember all that went around all of the ceremony that took place. But I just remember that it was a special occasion.

SM: And you only got it your sophomore year, right? You didn't have it freshman year?

49:00

AGB: No.

SM: Do you remember any other kind of events that stand out, graduation, or orientation, anything that-?

AGB: What everybody is going to remember is having to attend assemblies, and getting the roll. And you had to be in that seat. If not, you had a certain number of absences that you could have. And, of course, it wasn't many. So, you had to be there for all occasions basically.

SM: What kind of assemblies?

AGB: You have assemblies that would have information about what's going on campus. You might have Dean [Katherine] Taylor speaking to you. That's about as 50:00close as I would have ever gotten to her or [Dean Mereb] Mossman. I looked at the names that were listed. It was from a way distance. But we had lyceum programs that were excellent. We had events in Elliott Hall that were special.

SM: Would assemblies be in Elliott Hall, or would they be-

AGB: They were in Aycock [Auditorium]. They were in Aycock. And, evidently, everybody would fit in there. Because you definitely had an assigned seat. And I looked at the Class of '67, and it looks like there were so many. But I thought well, I don't know if it was that much larger or not. But that was it.

51:00

SM: I saw in the year book they would have like fashion shows, or like wedding shows, and they would fill up the hall with all these women interested in seeing that. Then other events they had to force people to come, because they weren't as interested in it. They wanted to see the wedding dresses and stuff.

AGB: Well, there was a lot of emphasis on getting there.

SM: There really is. Somebody could write a paper on looking through Woman's College yearbooks and seeing all the references to going to college but leaving to get married and how important it was. Women like dreaming-it would show a dream, and it shows them walking down the aisle. How things have changed.

AGB: One of the things they talk about in here was tea on Tuesdays. And that 52:00would be one way we got into the Alumni House. And I just saw this last magazine that Brenda Meadows Cooper's husband just died. And I look at this yearbook and see that she was the editor of it in '64. And she talks about putting an emphasis on women since this was it for this college. From now on we're going to be The University of North Carolina at Greensboro.

SM: That is interesting. So, obviously, you were there at an important time, the first male on campus. Can you tell me what that was like?

AGB: No, I-.

SM: They were still vastly outnumbered?

AGB: It didn't make much of an impact on me. And I think, number one, there weren't any black ones. So, that would have made a difference. If there were 53:00some black ones, it probably would have-I would have remembered that really well. But, no, it wasn't enough to make an impact on me, impression on me. Anita, my friend, that's here in Mocksville-her memory is just so sharp. It's so good. I think she remembers everything. And she said she went to Catawba College for something recently, and she saw this person. He might have been a woodwind player. And she looked at him, and she looked at his name, and it's like, "His name sounds familiar." And, then, she said, "Oh, he came to UNCG. You graduated from UNCG." Oh, okay. So, at least somebody is remembering. Oh, yes, I know I 54:00remember-a music major at UNCG.

SM: Now, did-was there a lot of chatter on campus about men coming? You'd think with all these women they would have been talking about it.

AGB: Of course, there was pro and con. Some would probably preferred going to State as to a woman's college. But that's changed.

SM: Did people talk about it-I mean men came in the fall of '64. But it changed over in the spring, technically the name and everything. So, was it people talking about it even before men came about the change to UNCG?

AGB: I don't remember really. I know we knew it was coming. I guess it was a big to do. But it didn't-it didn't faze me. I didn't think that much about it.

55:00

SM: Well, what was-we said earlier that a lot of women would date men from A&T. They would come to dances and things like that. Did you guys interact with other students at A&T? Would you ever go to events at A&T or at Bennett?

AGB: I didn't except that I had a friend from-a female friend from here in Mocksville that was A&T-at A&T. So, I saw her on campus several times. I had a high school classmate that was at Bennett. So, I went to Bennett several times. But I didn't go a lot.

SM: What was it like going from your campus to an all-black campus?

AGB: Hum, well, I guess it's really like going home, or being at home. When 56:00you're surrounded. But, then, again, you sort get accustomed to-although it might have been a little lonely if you hadn't had your camaraderie between-closeness between the black students. Like I don't remember us falling out with anybody. If we did I don't remember that kind of thing. But we had that close knitness. But I don't-I guess you had a feeling of maybe you were missing something not being there. But, then, it's a decision you make. And I came to a 57:00place that I didn't regret it after I started being a little more successful.

SM: So, did you ever consider transferring?

AGB: No.

SM: Was it really-when you wanted to come home because of grades, it wasn't transfer, it was just done with college in general?

AGB: Oh, it's like, no, there was no talk about transferring. And the thing is I was there on a scholarship, which I got as a result of the PSAT and SAT grades. And, of course, I lost that. And, then, the financial aid officer put me a packet together. And one of them included getting a teacher's loan where-my 58:00daughter also got the very same thing. Where if you-

SM: Like Teaching Fellows?

AGB: Teaching Fellows, except I don't think they called it college teaching then. It wasn't Teaching Fellows. You just got a loan. And if you worked four years, then you didn't have to pay that money back. So, with that and some more financial aid from here, there, and putting it together, that was the only way I could stay on campus. But, yet, I didn't think about going anywhere else. Although, one of the five us did-ended up going to NC Central.

SM: Who was that?

AGB: Mamie Davis. And I was just looking. I thought, "Was that all?" There was 59:00one day student. And Karen said that-her name was Linda Lee-that she left to get married. Ellen McCoy, I did not see in this '64 journal. She might be in '65. She had gone to Oberlin. And her father was a minister, a CME Minister.

SM: What was?

AGB: Ellen McCoy.

SM: What kind of minister, though?

AGB: CME. That's a form of Methodist.

SM: Okay.

AGB: Originally it was Colored Methodist Episcopal Church. And, then, they changed it to Christian Methodist Episcopal.

60:00

SM: And was-these ladies that you didn't find in the yearbook, did they start with you?

AGB: Like I said, Ellen did not start with us, because she came from Oberlin.

SM: Oh, she transferred in?

AGB: She transferred in.

SM: And she transferred out.

AGB: No, she transferred in.

SM: I'm trying to see if she's in this yearbook I have here. Linda Lee is in here.

AGB: Then Karen told me wrong.

SM: Well, she's in the '62 yearbook.

AGB: Okay.

SM: So, she-

AGB: Okay.

SM: This was before she left.

AGB: Okay.

SM: And, then-

AGB: Well, Ellen would not have been in there, I don't think.

SM: Ellen McCoy?

AGB: Yes.

SM: No, she's not in here. Because this was your freshman year, right?

61:00

AGB: Right. And I didn't find her in this junior year. Unless she just didn't take her picture.

SM: That is a chance.

AGB: But Karen would know that, too.

SM: Well, what would you say was your favorite aspect of college? We've talked about kind of the hardships, but was something you enjoyed?

AGB: I enjoyed the exposure to the arts. I was-had been expanded in a way that I never would have, I don't think, having gone somewhere else or not going at all. 62:00Music is a big part of my life not only church music, popular music. I even went to see Patsy Cline the other night. But opera. I like opera. I like Broadway shows. I got thrilled to no end to find out that a couple that we know here in Mocksville- their son has a lead role in Les Miserables that's touring the country.

SM: Oh, wow.

AGB: And it just blew me away. And I thought with the twenty-fifth anniversary of it, and it being on PBS, I saw it several times. And she said, "It's nothing like my son singing it. And I said, "And I bet it's not." But we got some-I'm 63:00trying to think. Something-Lamone-Spanish dancer that kind of Flamingo dancing. And-orchestral music. I got to work behind the scenes with Carmen. And, so, in rehearsals-you heard it every night over and over. And, so, now when [singing] "Oh, that just"-it just thrilled.

SM: You said Carmen?

AGB: Yes.

SM: What is?

AGB: Carmen is opera.

SM: Opera, Okay. I'm not a-I know Broadway shows, but I don't-

AGB: Okay. But that kind of exposure.

SM: Well, one thing we're trying to do is, we talked a little bit about this is, kind of place you in history, in US history, about what was going on in the 64:00world at this time. So, you mentioned some important people. But about-you mentioned JFK getting an honorary degree.

AGB: Yes.

SM: Do you remember kind of the where-you-were moment when he was-you had heard he had been assassinated?

AGB: As far as I can remember, it would have been on the sidewalk outside of North Reynolds with somebody saying this had happened. I got on the Internet to look at the time, and it said 12:30 pm. And-

SM: Which was when he was shot, or when they made the announcement?

AGB: When he was shot.

SM: So, it would have been 1:30 pm our time.

AGB: Yes, and, of course, we went through the wondering, "Is he going to live?" Now, you were in the day of Walter Cronkite. And I can remember Walter Cronkite 65:00saying later that that was one of the few times that he ever broke down on a news cast is when he had to make that announcement.

SM: It's a very famous news clip.

AGB: He didn't survive. And, of course, seeing it over and over, although you were at a dorm with the TV in the lounge. It's like not having the TV in your room. It was just like a state of shock. To me it's like living in slow motion. You know, it's like, "It can't be so. It can't be so." That was at the time of Camelot with Richard Burton. And, of course, people were identifying that couple 66:00that's the ideal Camelot kind of couple. And all of a sudden this happened. That was so tragic. I asked Anita what she did, and she said that, about eight of them went over to Our Lady of Grace [Catholic Church] that night. I don't know if they were having a special service or what.

SM: Is Anita Catholic?

AGB: She's not.

SM: She's not. Okay.

AGB: She grew up Methodist.

SM: Okay.

AGB: She grew up Methodist. But I guess maybe he was Catholic.

SM: He was Catholic.

AGB: I don't know why she [unclear]. They went to a Catholic Church. But one thing it was close to the campus, but I told her I remember even coming home for Thanksgiving and still having that mournful feeling after you got home, and then your folk are just as sad. But it was just such a shock. Such a tragedy.

67:00

SM: And you went to college during a very turbulent time. I mean, you also had the assassination of Malcolm X. Was that something that was news?

AGB: Yes, yes. With Malcolm X it was like he was cut down and at such a prime time. Even Martin Luther King was not as old as I would have thought he was. But Malcolm X was even what like in his twenties. And wondering if it was an inside job. You always wonder if this is a conspiracy or what's going on. Even with 68:00Kennedy, even with King. It's like your leaders being gunned down, that happen to leaders.

SM: Do you remember-? I know my mom, which was in high school, she was in high school during the Kennedy assassination, they got out of school early. Did campus continue on that day, or were classes cancelled?

AGB: I don't remember classes being cancelled. They may have been, but I don't remember that they were.

SM: Do you remember anything about the March on Washington that happened in 1963?

AGB: I do. I remember that well. Started in 1961 the-my aunt who had reared my 69:00mother and me were-both of us in our household. She, although she taught school she graduated from Winston-Salem State. In the summers she would go to New York to work as a live-in maid. And so in 1961, I packed my bags, and the two of us went to New York, Long Island. But she had a certain family that she worked for, and I had to look for somebody. And I ended up working for two people-no, no, no. Before I finished I was working for two people. But the first year I was working for the Pintos. He was Italian, and she was Jewish. And he loved Jazz. He loved Dave Brubeck. That was '61. And, then, in the summer of '62 I was still 70:00with the same family. The summer of '63, I was still with the same family.

SM: So, you would go up every summer?

AGB: I went up every summer. And even when I went to Chapel Hill for the first part of it, when I left my two classes I went on back up there. I can-I was ironing, and listening to it on the radio. So, I just had to visualize it, the March on Washington. Of course, later, you know, I was to see that you had all this mass of people who were gathered at the Mall. And, of course, I've heard so much about it since then. What I experienced then, and what I've learned later, 71:00sort of just blends in together.

SM: Right.

AGB: You know, like some of the people that spoke: A. [Asa] Phillip Randolph and, oh, Martin Luther King, and how sometimes he would be so extemporaneous in his speeches that he would start in one direction and end up in another. And, of course, his, "I have a dream about one day my two little girls" or whatever, "the red hills of Georgia" and all this and that and the other. And I thought, "Okay, okay." And I have been in cities since then where people have said it. And they would try to get this voice to sing it. And I can still be moved to 72:00tears when I hear it, because from time to time you still hear it. And when I think about him, what he did, what he stood for, and how his life was cut short, I get very emotional about it. So, that I definitely remember.

SM: Did you hear the "I have a dream" speech on the radio?

AGB: On the radio.

SM: Wow. I bet it was even-

AGB: While I was ironing.

SM: It probably was even more powerful on the radio, because he's such-he's a powerful speaker when you see him, but even if you just hear him.

AGB: Yes.

SM: Was a very emotional speaker.

AGB: Yes.

SM: Wow. And, now, in 1963-everybody always remembers the Civil Rights Movement in Greensboro in 1960, which was the Woolworth's. But in actuality the 1963 movement was much more volatile. It was larger. It was led by Jesse Jackson, who 73:00was then just a regular college student. Do you remember anything that took place with the movement happening in downtown?

AGB: Only from a distance, because I didn't venture down there. I can remember a group of the males getting arrested, being taken to what, I guess, they call it the Farm [Prison Farm] at Gibsonville. Well, you had fellows from A&T that worked in the dining hall.

SM: Really?

AGB: Yes. And surely some of them were protesting, I guess. That's the main thing I remember was that, them getting arrested.

SM: Hundreds of people were arrested.

74:00

AGB: Yes.

SM: Where they blocked the intersection at-they called it Jefferson Square, which is downtown at Elm and Market Street. Did anybody-did you know anybody else on campus that participated, or was it largely an A&T or-

AGB: Like I said we-we did not. We just did Tate Street. We had our placards. But back-I can remember being frightened to death. But I went on down there, because everybody-you know, the others were doing it, so.

SM: Did you tell your mother about that?

AGB: No.

SM: No?

AGB: No, no. We haven't talked about. We haven't even talked about it.

SM: And you also went to college right at the escalation of Vietnam, the Vietnam War.

AGB: Yes.

SM: And you said you were dating a man who was in the Army. Do you know 75:00anything, and do you have any memories about the Vietnam War?

AGB: Only what was shown on TV. Only some things that I knew he experienced that weren't pleasant.

SM: Did he actually go to Vietnam?

AGB: He did not go to Vietnam, but some of the training to prepare you was still rough. Of course I know some people that did, but they were here and I was there, so we didn't correspond to anything.

If it had been more co-ed, you would have had more protests. But the fact that 76:00we weren't really directly-I guess you were directly impacted, but not as much as a male thinking you're going to be drafted. Because you remember, people were being drafted at that time. So, you went whether you wanted to go or not.

SM: And the last kind of moment in history was the Civil Rights Act of 1964 which Johnson, President Johnson enacted to desegregate, basically, all public spaces. Was that something that had an effect on the area? I mean Tate Street or?

AGB: It did. When I read the history of how-what happened at Woolworth's is like 77:00they said-finally just gave in. You know, because after the Dudley [High School] students continued what the A&T students had started, and when they were not there for the summer, then the Dudley students stepped up. And, then, they finally gave in. So, I think it was a giving-in, reluctant kind of thing. But the other thing is that you'd think something is going to change all of a sudden, and it doesn't. You know? It's really slow in coming. Attitudes don't change overnight. And you'd still have resistance. So, I see resistance today that I didn't think I would see in 2011. But that would be the main thing that 78:00it was slow in coming. It was-all of a sudden, yes, you could go have a cup of coffee. That was what we had all worked for. Yes, you could register and not feel that you were going to be discriminated against when you got registered, and be asked some silly questions.

SM: You're talking about voting?

AGB: For voting, so.

SM: So, you even experienced voting registration discrimination?

AGB: No.

SM: No. I know that was something that was a big issue, obviously, in the Deep South. North Carolina probably, rural settings, it was maybe worse than-

AGB: Well, maybe. But-[response trailed off]

79:00

SM: One thing we wanted to know, too, is kind of about your life after Woman's College. So, obviously, we talked about you're a teacher. But what did you do immediately after graduation?

AGB: I had been accustomed to working every summer. I knew somebody in Reynolds' that had been with the North Carolina Fund Volunteers. And, so, the summer of 1965 that's what I did. My group was in Pembroke. And I worked with the tutoring program in Laurinburg. We had people that-some were in some hot beds. And the fact that it was an integrated group made it worse. And I know for sure the people in Harnett County, some were sort of mistreated. When I say "mistreated," 80:00I don't mean violently, anything happened to them except people let them know that they didn't appreciate that group coming-our group coming in. We went to Wilmington, for a retreat with everybody coming together from across the state. And we were told to lay low, because we were an integrated group, and because of the attitudes in Wilmington, that we didn't need to be walking up and down the streets as a mixed group. So, we sort of-we were in a beach-like a big, big beach house is where we would sit together. So, that's what I did the first summer. That was just sort of a giving back kind of thing. When I applied for a 81:00job-and one place was Winston-Salem, one place was Rocky Mount, and one place was Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and I had music major, Caucasian music major. She said, "Oh, take that job in Fort Lauderdale, so I'll come and visit you." And they-I interviewed with the person and talked with the person at Fort Lauderdale, because they needed to replace someone. And, then, my cousin told me I didn't want to go to Rocky Mount, and I didn't understand why. But she said, "You need to not want to go to Rocky Mount. You don't want to go down East." 82:00And, so, in Greensboro there were three music supervisors, two white and one black. And the black lady approached me about coming to Gillespie Park [Elementary School], which was at that time-I don't remember what year it was integrated. But it hadn't been integrated that long. And, then, we got in the midst of white flight. And that was my first job in 1965. I took the job in Greensboro. I stayed there eight years. Then my husband, I married a Methodist minister, we went to Asheboro. And his first job was in Greensboro. Second job 83:00was in Asheboro. His background is interesting, too. Because he came to A&T for a two-year course in photography. Then he went to Connecticut to work. Then he went to Myerstown, which was a white seminary in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Then he came back to North Carolina, and we met each other and got married. And, then, he went back to A&T. And, then, he went to Duke. And when we were in Asheboro with two-a toddler and a baby, I stayed home one year. And, then, I thought, "No, I do not want to do this. Let me go find a job." And, then, I went to-got hired in Randolph County. And I stayed there for the rest of my teaching career.

SM: Which school?

AGB: Oh, I was hired at Seagrove, which was K-8. I have worked at-and it wasn't 84:00because I couldn't keep a job. It was because they kept changing the music teachers around. I worked at Coleridge. I worked at Ramseur. I worked at Franklinville. I worked-

SM: So, you were all around Asheboro?

AGB: I worked at Tabernacle. When I was at Tabernacle and at Farmer-no Tabernacle and-oh, I worked at Farmer, too. When I was at Tabernacle and Ramseur, the principal at Tabernacle went to Trinity. And he interviewed me to come to Trinity. At that time we had moved from Asheboro to High Point. So, that 85:00made it very close. So, I went to work at Trinity. And I ended up going with him to Archdale. Trinity was [grades] five [and] six. And, then, they moved most of the staff from Braxton Craven, which was in Trinity, the five-six school, to John Lawrence, which was a brand new school in Archdale, which was a K-5. So, that's where I ended up. When I think about all the music that I've taught, and all the kids that I've taught, when I was at Farmer I started teaching folks' children. And the first night of PTA and somebody would come in they'd say, "Ah." I'd say, "Oh, yes. I know. I taught you. Yeah, I taught you. Now, I'm teaching your child." And one thing that UNCG prepared me for was to be in a 86:00white setting. Because all of them-I never worked on a staff that was more than two blacks.

SM: Even at Gillespie Park?

AGB: At Gillespie Park. I take that back. Gillespie Park was the exception to the rule. When I went to Randolph County I never worked with any-on any staff that was more than two blacks. And I could remember somebody at Trinity High School saying that she wanted to leave because she felt being in the minority is not what she wanted. And I was saying, "But we need to have a presence for the few minority students that are here."

SM: Right.

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AGB: So, a big part of my life was teaching school. After thirty-six years, I retired.

SM: You retired from Randolph County?

AGB: Yes.

SM: Okay. My whole-both my parents, and all my grandparents are from Randolph County.

AGB: Really?

SM: My grandparents, actually, went to Farmer High School when it was K-11, or whatever.

AGB: Yes.

SM: They went when it was like a one-room school.

AGB: Yes, yes.

SM: So, my grandmother graduated from Farmer in like 1937 or something.

AGB: Okay.

SM: She was-her class was like eleven people or something. So, both my grandparents lived in-they lived in a township like a New Hope Township down there.

AGB: I know exactly where New Hope. I taught some kids from New Hope.

SM: Both my parents are Blue Comets. They went to Asheboro High.

AGB: Okay.

SM: My grandparents, actually-one reason I got involved in oral history was this project I did in undergraduate about Hop's Bar-B-Que.

88:00

AGB: Okay.

SM: My grandparents owned Hop's Bar-B-Que. And there was a Civil Rights protest that took place in 1964 that I lived my whole life without knowing that this existed. I didn't grow up in segregation. So, the thought-

AGB: Where was Hop's Bar-B-Que?

SM: It's downtown Asheboro.

AGB: Okay.

SM: Right next to the Sunset Theater.

AGB: Okay.

SM: On Sunset and-it's one street over from Fayetteville Church. Sunset and Church.

AGB: Okay.

SM: And they actually opened one in Randleman later, but that is closed.

AGB: Okay.

SM: My grandparents didn't own that one. But I didn't grow up in segregation. So, the thought that it was segregated like blew my mind. And, so, I kind of went deeper in the story, and interviewed people who were arrested at the protest. And, so, that's kind of how I got started. I never grew up-I grew up in Greensboro, but all my roots are in Randolph County.

AGB: Oh, yes. I've got some good memories of some New Hope students, yes.

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SM: My grand-

AGB: And parents.

SM: Both my grandparents when they got to be of working age went to the city. They went to Asheboro. But they were country people who lived on the farms out in New Hope. I think it was called something else, too. I saw their wedding announcement. It said random town. And I thought they grew up in New Hope. My mom was like, "Well, it's so small that everything kind of joins together over there."

AGB: And a lot of people don't know that you've got two school systems.

SM: Yes.

AGB: It made a difference.

SM: So, you went all around Asheboro but not actually in Asheboro?

AGB: No.

SM: Coleridge, Ramseur, Franklinville, Tabernacle, Farmer.

AGB: We lived up the hill from the hospital.

SM: Oh, really, okay.

AGB: Yes. We did.

SM: So, did your-do you have a daughter? You said you have a daughter and-

AGB: I have a daughter that graduated from UNCG in 1992.

SM: Okay.

AGB: She got accepted at Chapel Hill. And she said she preferred to go to UNCG. 90:00I thought, okay. And the reason she said that she thought Chapel Hill was too large for her. She is shy. And she's coming out. But, you know, I can't say anything, because I was shy, and I still am to a certain extent. Although I'm quite a social activist today. But, I do it mostly in writing. So, I don't have to speak. I write letters to the editor all the time.

SM: Wow. And did your kids go to Asheboro City Schools?

AGB: They both went to High Point [T. Wingate] Andrews [High School]. And that was an excellent experience for them.

SM: Did they go to elementary school in Asheboro?

AGB: They went to elementary school in Greensboro.

SM: Greensboro, okay.

AGB: They went to Morehead Elementary. And they went to, oh, it's on-Mount Zion 91:00Elementary. And, then, my daughter went to Lincoln [Junior High School]. By the time we got to junior high or middle school we had moved to High Point. So, our son went to, oh, whatever is right beside Andrews High. I can't think what-it's a middle school beside Andrews High.

SM: I don't know High Point.

AGB: But, anyway.

SM: So, when you lived in Greensboro and they went to Morehead and Mount Zion, you were still going to Randolph County to work?

AGB: Yes. I did. I drove-I drove every day.

SM: Wow.

AGB: But there was-we were able to carpool. There were several teachers from Greensboro. So, I was in a carpool.

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SM: And you moved to-did you move because your husband got placed in different churches?

AGB: Yes. And we did stay longer than most, mostly. Because we stayed in Asheboro eight years. We came back to Greensboro. I'm going to say eight, because it might be like seven and a half. And, then, we went to High Point. And both of them were able to graduate from High Point Andrews.

SM: And is your husband still a minister, or is he?

AGB: He's retired.

SM: He's retired.

AGB: He's retired. So, we retired here. We left Charlotte to come here.

SM: Oh, so, you lived in Charlotte, too?

AGB: We were in Charlotte four years. And I went to see a lady whose son was funeralized Friday. And she said, "You know, I miss you." Because we used to go to-this lady is-she's probably about eighty-eight years old. We used to go to so 93:00many good things together like Porgy and Bess, and we were always going-we were always hanging out together. I went to some things by myself as long as it was springtime or summertime. But, then, wintertime I didn't want to go by myself. So, when we got ready to relocate my husband likes Charlotte because he's from Kings Mountain.

SM: Okay.

AGB: That was the closest he had ever been to home. And he said, "All these cultural activities," and I thought, "But I'd have to go alone." And that's one thing I liked about Greensboro. We were supposed to go back to Greensboro to retire. We actually go to church in Greensboro.

SM: You do?

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AGB: Except that my little church is about a mile over here. So, that's where I went this morning. Because they have service at 9:30 am.

SM: Does he go to church in Greensboro?

AGB: Yes.

SM: You guys have a church-

AGB: No, I go with him most Sundays.

SM: What church in Greensboro?

AGB: Union Memorial Methodist right near Bennett College.

SM: Okay.

AGB: One of the things I'm proud of when we think about Bennett and look at how it's expanding. I don't have anything to do with that necessarily all the new expansion. But we have a black Methodist church renewal group. And for the last five years we've had fundraisers that have been quite successful. We ask-we have been just asking the black churches for an annual contribution to Bennett College because, oh, years ago before integration that was the-they got support 95:00from the black churches by having an annual roll call. And, so, we started that five years ago because one of the trustees was a Methodist minister said funds were needed. Johnetta Cole was still president at that time. And we built a guard house with the funds that we raised on Gorrell Street. We completely renovated the Alumni House. And I've got a picture scraping off wallpaper standing beside Johnetta Cole that I thought, I don't believe this lady is just so down-to-earth. We are building a second guard house on the other side of the campus so that our monies will have paid for two guard houses. And we've done 96:00other work on the campus. But this year they're asking us to do-we're calling it the Passport Project. So that they-you've probably heard about them opening a new Global Learning Center. Oh, supposed to be very, very nice. And Julianne Malveaux has an emphasis on global learning. And she takes students abroad with her, so.

SM: Julianne was?

AGB: Malveaux, M-A-L-V-E-A-U-X. Or maybe it's Malveaux. But it's Julianne. So, every student is supposed to be getting a passport. So, that's what our emphasis now is, not only buildings or grounds. It's on the students, other than building 97:00and grounds.

SM: And you said earlier at the beginning that you stayed involved with UNCG. You were-in the '80s you were on the Alumni Board.

AGB: Right.

SM: Do you stay involved at all anymore?

AGB: Not just- only just going back to reunions.

SM: You said you were involved in the old Quad.

AGB: No, that was my friend.

SM: Have you wrote letters or?

AGB: No, she wrote the letter. She wrote that letter.

SM: Oh, okay.

AGB: And I thought, "I don't know if it is because of that letter that someone came to Mocksville." And I thought-I don't know what I thought, but she came to the library and sat down, just the two of us. And I thought, "Oh, my word." But I know that our class-I'm waiting for our class to start raising some money for 98:00our fiftieth reunion. I have-I'm waiting on that. Now, the JoAnne Drane- lounge, evidently, is already paid for.

SM: Do you know JoAnne [Smart Drane]?

AGB: I have met her on several occasions. I wouldn't say that I know her that well. My roommate was on the trustee board for the college at the same time that she was.

SM: She's kind of the person heading up this project actually. She was-she's kind of the-her emphasis has really jumpstarted the project. And she got the library behind her.

AGB: Okay. Well, I tell you somebody else that's been very important to me. Not because that I know her personally, but because of what she's contributed. And 99:00that's Claudette Burroughs-White. It's like those people just paved the way for us, the fact that they would step out like that when it was just two people? Oh, me.

SM: And they were very influential. One of the ladies I interviewed said that the reason why she went to Woman's College was because JoAnne Smart was her student teacher at Dudley. And she thought she was so sophisticated and she-

AGB: She is.

SM: She loved her lipstick, and she just thought, "Oh, if I could be like that. I've got to go to this college." And, so, I'm sure JoAnne would love to hear that story.

AGB: Yes, yes. But this is my book. And I thought it interesting that the voter ID that maybe voted in to require voter ID. She was down there with some 100:00students from UNCG, A&T, and Bennett. I saw their picture in the paper. I thought, "Okay, she's still at it." UNCG is still doing it.

SM: Do you stay in touch with other-you talked about you stay in touch with Anita?

AGB: The only ones that I stay in touch with are Anita. I stay in touch with my college classmate, roommate, who is in Sun City, South Carolina that I'll probably talked to today, because she lives in Maryland. But she has a home in South Carolina, too.

SM: Okay.

AGB: So, she's down there on breaks and holidays and stuff. And I'm very fond of 101:00Karen Parker. And we e-mail each other all the time. And talk occasionally. But-

SM: Do you stay in touch with Irene?

AGB: No. I do run into her. It was so funny. When I lived in Greensboro I ran into her at Harris Teeter, Friendly Shopping Center, and it was snowing. And I said, "This is what it took to get us together. It's like, ah, it's snow." But, no, I don't. But there was a time when we lived right across the branch from each other when we saw each other more when we were in Kings Forrest. That's right off of Phillips Avenue. So, I saw her then. Not anymore. And I understand 102:00she had done some work at Guilford College. She might still be there. I'm not sure.

SM: My last question is, what do you want future students and scholars, or people interested in this subject to know about your experience as you were one of the first. I mean you were the first twenty people, maybe even less than that, of black students at Woman's College?

AGB: I would want them to know that we all stand on the shoulders of somebody else, that there's always somebody that's paved the way for us to make it a little easier. I hope it's easier than it was for us. And, also, that just in 103:00the world that we live in, to keep getting the best education you can. Being in a diverse setting is good. I can't say in this world, like you said, you don't know segregation. I have heard-I have heard a relative say that she was sending her daughter to a predominantly black school, African-American school because the only thing that they have learned about African-American history has been at home. It's not taught in the schools. My daughter is a teacher, second-grade teacher, and she includes it. And there's-I don't know. She includes it. I don't 104:00know if she includes it because she's black, or if her colleagues do. I have no way of knowing. But I hope we're living in a society where diversity is accepted. And that we'll do our part. And in moving forward, moving forward.

SM: That's so true. Well, I don't have any more questions unless there is anything else you want to add?

AGB: No.

SM: Okay. Well, thank you so much for letting me come over today.