Oral history interview with June Rainey Honeycutt, 1997 [text/print transcript]

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UNCG CENTENNIAL ORAL HISTORY PROJECT COLLECTION
INTERVIEWEE: June Rainey Honeycutt
INTERVIEWERS: Allen Trelease
Betty Carter
DATE: May 10, 1997
AT: Mrs. Honeycutt, I assume that since you were in the Class of 1952, you came here in 1948.
Where did you live when you came here?
JH: Allen, please make it June.
AT: Okay, June.
JH: I'm originally from Salisbury, North Carolina. I entered the university in the fall—then
Woman's College [of the University of North Carolina]. And I chose the Woman’s College
because I had always heard that was a very difficult institution to get into, not as much as
difficult to get into the university as it was an excellent school that was very difficult. You
had to have good grades to get in, and you had to work hard. I wanted a school like that.
Being from Salisbury [North Carolina], we had Catawba College, which I know must still be
there, was only six blocks from home. My dad said, "Why don't you just go out here to
Catawba?" He had twelve children, and he wanted to keep us all right there with him. And he
said, "It's only six blocks from the college," and I told him, "That's the reason I want to go
away." [laughs] But seriously, it's the best choice I could have ever made—other than the
choice of the gentleman I made for my husband.
AT: Well, the fact that you were one of twelve children might then help to explain what Dr.
[Richard] Bardolph [history professor] mentioned yesterday. You were the recipient of a
scholarship. Could you tell about that?
JH: Yes. Without sounding self-serving, it's really one of the biggest accomplishments in my life.
Being one of twelve children, Dad, of course, didn't have money to send many of us to
college. I was the ninth one. So I started out freshman year, and I think I remember my father
coming over and signing a note with me. I guess he did that because we certainly didn't have
any money, even though at that time it was only four hundred dollars or so in tuition, room
and board, as well as I remember.
But I came anyway, and I was majoring in history. That's how I came to know Dr.
Bardolph. I was intimidated by that man, but I loved him. I just thought he was just
marvelous, up until he gave my first C. [laughs] But, seriously, at the end of my freshman
year I didn’t think I had any money to complete college. So I had to switch from history. I
thought if I switched to business education, I would at least have something to go on when I
had to leave.
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In the meantime—each class that comes into the Woman's College would select a
project that they would support throughout their four years. The class chose a class
scholarship for a person who needed the money. It was to be a secret from the whole class;
the girls were not to know whom they had chosen.
AT: That person was to be a member of that class?
JH: Yes, it was to be a member of that class. Now, if I remember correctly, Dr. Eugenia Hunter
[professor of elementary education], who was our class advisor, was on the committee. Mrs.
Josephine Schaeffer, who was placement officer, and if I'm correct, Dr. Schaeffer was at one
time my dorm counselor over in North Spencer, and Dean Katherine Taylor, dean of
students—those three faculty members, if I remember correctly, were the committee. Dr.
Hunter called me into her office one day and told me that I had been chosen to receive this
scholarship. So I immediately called my mother, and that was one of the biggest joys of my
life. There are two gifts in my life that really mean more to me. I read this recently: this
author was asking, "What is the most memorable gift you ever received?" And I would have
to say that the scholarship from my classmates, number one. And number two was the letter I
received from my mother, saying she had prayed long and hard that there would be some
way I could stay in school.
AT: So you knew the source, but the other girls in the class didn't know the recipient until
graduation?
JH: Until graduation. So with their help, selling stockings, selling candy, selling stationery, with
that help financially and with my self-help working in the dining hall, and the Alumnae
Office, and I think I did have some notes to pay off when I got out of school, that's how I got
through Woman's College.
AT: That's wonderful, and this was written up in the New York Times?
JH: What had happened—at out last class meeting of your senior year, it’s always a tradition—
you leave the last college meeting of the year where the whole student body meets, and then
the graduating class—you always traipse over to the Alumnae House to have your final class
meeting. So I had talked with Dr. Hunter earlier, and I said, "With your permission I would
like to thank my classmates for this support.” And so we had—that’s the meeting you also
select your everlasting class officers so you will have someone to represent you as an
alumna. At any rate, we had finished all our other work and, of course, our chores before our
last class meeting, and the girls were anxious to get out and go to bed because they were all
tired—they were going to party, more than likely [laughs]—so Dr. Hunter said, "Girls, just a
minute, just a minute, I want you to know who the recipient of your scholarship has been.
The girl you have just chosen as your everlasting president has been the recipient of your
scholarship all these years."
AT: What a nice story.
JH: You talk about tears flowing, at least for me, and I think quite a few others.
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AT: They had just elected you before that announcement was made?
JH: Dr. Bardolph, or rather someone said that other classmates were nominated along with me, I
guess one other, and she said, "I'm not going to run against June Honeycutt—June Rainey."
So that was really a nice honor. And Jane Sarsfield, who's now Jane Sarsfield Shoaf [Class of
1952] of our class, had a call that night from her father. Or Jane had called her father in
Charlotte [North Carolina], and her father was with the Associated Press [news agency]. So
he put it on the wire, and so Time magazine contacted me, and Newsweek and Life [both
magazines], and—
AT: They thought it was a good story too.
JH: Yes. They ran it with a picture. At least two of them did, which was nice.
AT: That's great. What does it mean, in practical application, to be everlasting class president?
JH: It means that you will be in charge of all the class reunions. That—
AT: For the rest of your life?
JH: For the rest of your life. I'm planning on retiring at my fiftieth. And I'm planning on being
here for that fiftieth. It's a big chore, but it's definitely an honor, particularly with our class.
We're such a fun-loving class, and we just have a great deal of pride that we're the Class of
1952. And we're in touch with them, in particular right now, planning for our big fiftieth
anniversary. It's my responsibility and the responsibility of the other class officers to make
sure that we're in touch with our classmates when it comes to things that we need to do even
before we have our class reunion. In particular, we're really working toward goals that we
want to have at our reunion. Again, our next five years are really going to show what kind of
class we are.
AT: So you were presiding, then, at this meeting that you just had?
JH: Yes. At our forty-fifth reunion. I preside at all the meetings we have, yes.
AT: Before I get to the student government presidency, are there are any other faculty members
that stand out in your mind as somebody to talk about. Louise Alexander [political science
faculty], maybe?
JH: I had Dr. Louise Alexander, I believe, for one class, and I was a freshman. I was in awe of
her. I remember one thing; in my mind this will always stick out because she was such a
dynamic person. We were told—you just heard this by osmosis when you came to the
college—you tried to get into Dr. Louise Alexander's class. I was fortunate to be in her class,
and little things like this have bothered me ever since. In one of her classes, she had a
speaker. He was Indian; I wish I could remember who he is, but he was someone of great
importance. She walked in to introduce him that morning, and to this day I will kick myself
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that we did not do the courteous thing of standing to receive that gentleman. I had been
taught things like this all my life. I just don't think we did the right thing by staying seated.
That's just a simple thing, the way you were raised, that you wish you had done differently.
AT: She was certainly a popular teacher.
JH: Oh, she was a very popular teacher.
AT: And you said that Dr. Bardolph was too. He was a young, debonair—
JH: Debonair. He will hear this, won't he?
AT: Maybe so, maybe no.
JH: He was the type of person that—you loved him. He—the thrill I got out of him, of listening to
him, was that you know you have the best professor on campus when you were in his class—
certainly in his field. He became very popular. The only thing I didn't appreciate—he gave
me my first C, and my family could not understand how June Rainey could get a C. And he
had the nerve to tell me the following summer, "I tried to put that C+ up to a B-, but I just
couldn't." But he is truly one of the most interesting people that I have come across.
I was not in any of Dr. [Walter Clinton] Jackson's [history professor, dean of administration,
chancellor] classes because I am not really sure if he was teaching then.
AT: I think he had—sometimes when he was chancellor he had one class on biography.
JH: Yes.
AT: Great Americans or Representative Americans or something.
JH: But the students—the love they had for Dr. Jackson is just—they revered him and they loves
him. He was a father figure. He was just terrific. He was the campus to us.
AT: Yes. And you would have entered and you were there during his last two years as chancellor.
He retired, at least stepped down as chancellor, in 1950.
JH: Yes, that's right.
AT: Do you remember Miss Mossman? Mereb Mossman [sociology/anthropology faculty, dean
of instruction, dean of the college, dean of faculty, vice chancellor for academic affairs]?
JH: Yes, Mereb Mossman. I did not have her as a professor. I remember she was vice chancellor
or dean of the faculty?
AT: Yes, dean of the faculty, in 1951.
JH: In '51. I got to know her when I returned to the campus in '53 as secretary to Chancellor
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Edward [Kidder] Graham [Jr.]. That's how I got to know Dr. Mossman. A tremendous,
beautiful woman. She was, again, very respected on campus, a very intelligent woman.
AT: It was sometimes said that many chancellors served under Mereb Mossman.
JH: That's probably true. That's a very good statement.
AT: You were student government president in your senior year. Was this the culmination of
four years of student government activity or involvement?
JH: Yes. You always have the election for student government officers in the spring before you
became a senior. I had been involved as assistant house president in one of the dormitories,
North Spencer, as a sophomore. Then I was on the judi[cial] board, where we gave
"punishment" to the students who didn't "behave themselves. "
AT: And you were still popular?
JH: Yes, I guess. I was not house president. I was on judicial board as a junior, which was a very
responsible job because the cases that you would have to come before the board could be
very time consuming. And then there were other responsibilities I had beside my classes,
working in the dining hall. I used to say I graduated with a degree in extracurricular
activities.
AT: You didn't have a lot of free time?
JH: No. I didn't have a lot of free time.
AT: So, with all of this work and the classwork, you still had time to do the student government
work, judicial board?
JH: Yes, until I was elected president of the whole Woman's College, not president of the senior
class.
AT: Yes.
JH: It was interesting that year. There were three running for president and three running for vice
president. I had not given any thought to running as president. Is this the type of thing you
want to hear?
AT: Yes, absolutely.
JH: I had not given any thought to running as president. I knew how time consuming it was, and I
knew I had to have my work in the dining hall to help financially. That would be difficult
and still keep up my classes. But the president at that time of student government, Nancy
Burton [Hockett, Class of 1951]—she would be graduating, of course, and a committee—. I
think it was Jaylee Montague [Class of 1951, honorary degree 2003]. What's Jaylee
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Montague's married name? [Editor’s note: Mead is Jaylee Montague’s married name.] She's
on the board of trustees with the—she’s an officer of the Alumni Association now. At that
time there were two or three who came to me and asked me to run for president. At any rate,
there were three running for president of student government, and three running for vice
president.
AT: Which is unusual?
JH: Which is unusual, but the most unusual part to us was that the election—how do you say it? It
was not a runoff.
AT: Okay. You got a majority.
JH: Yes, a majority on the first ballot, as did the vice president. And that was Betty Bullard [Class
of 1952], now Dr. Betty Bullard, who got—
BC: An Alumnae Service Award.
JH: Correct. So she and I were president and vice president of student government that senior
year.
AT: And you worked well together?
JH: Exactly, yes. I am everlasting president of the Class of 1952. Betty Bullard is the everlasting
vice president of the Class of '52. Jane Sarsfield Shoaf is the everlasting secretary of the
Class of '52. Jane Sarsfield Shoaf and Louise Mooney [Morgan, Class of 1952] were my two
opponents as we ran for the presidency. I can't remember the girls who ran against Betty
Bullard.
AT: Any major issues, controversies, events during that year?
JH: No, except, that year as—but not as much so as I have seen now—the type of thing that's
disturbing me now. But back then, as always, it was the apathy of the students. It seemed that
a certain group of students seemed to be involved in everything all the time. You did
everything you could to get them involved.
AT: I can tell you this is a perennial—almost every year—from the beginning of the student
newspaper in 1919 down as far as I've gotten into the late '70s, except maybe for a few years
in the '60s when a lot of things—late '60s, early '70s. But it's a perennial complaint, perennial
problem. Very few students are interested in spending the time that's necessary.
JH: That's right.
AT: Carolinian [student newspaper] staff almost always undermanned. Editors complaining
about this.
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JH: Exactly. They worked very hard. I do want to go back and give a little aside, if you don't
mind.
AT: Go ahead.
JH: To the story of the scholarship I had won, as it came out in our last class meeting. I didn't hear
this until several years later. Jane Sarsfield Shoaf's father put it on the Associated Press wire,
and the editor of the Greensboro Record called Chancellor Graham, very disturbed that he
had not called him (the editor) to give him the story. In turn, Dr. Graham jumped on Mr.
[Albert] Wilkinson of the college news bureau because he didn't have the story. So it was fun
time there for a while.
And there's one other professor that I do remember so strongly. Her name slips my
mind—she was a lawyer.
AT: In sociology?
JH: In sociology.
AT: Lyda Gordon Shivers?
JH: Exactly. At one time, because of her, I thought I wanted to become a lawyer. She impressed
me so. She was our adviser on judicial board. And we had a couple of "nasty cases" that
year; if we hadn't had her guidance, we'd have been in trouble.
AT: Were these social infractions or academic?
JH: Social infractions. I couldn't give you the details now. I think it was probably drinking
involved. They were pretty strict about that back then, which I think was a good thing. With
her guidance we got through it. We received commendations from the chancellor's office
about how we handled these cases, and it went on record. We were proud of that.
AT: What impressions do you have of the honor code as it operated then?
JH: Louise Mooney, I believe, was our honor code chairman, if that's the title. She was very
good. The honor code to the majority of the students was something dear to them. We felt
that any infraction of that was like an infraction in your own family. If you honor your
classmates, you honor your university, that’s what you were expected to do period in life just
as you were expected to do in your own family, the right thing. That meant a lot to us.
AT: This was the general student attitude at that time?
JH: At that time. If it was otherwise, I was not aware of it.
BC: We do have some of the judicial board records, however, they're restricted. In a hundred
years someone needs to go through them to see the things you did.
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JH: Yes. I remember some of those evenings got to be, for lack of a better word, hairy. It was a
very difficult decision to make. But wholeheartedly I agree that they should stay restricted.
AT: Any correspondence you had with the chancellor is in the chancellor's papers. I came across
your name a number of times. The student government president is the one student who,
more than any other, is apt to appear in the chancellor's papers.
JH: Yes.
AT: How did you make the transition from graduating senior to chancellor's secretary?
JH: Everything was related to the Woman's College. I had worked so hard for four years,
summers for financial reasons, and I wanted to rest, at least for a few months. But as I
graduated and the story got into the press, Fred Morrison—who had been in the economics
faculty earlier and who was from Salisbury [North Carolina], and then a law partner of
former [North Carolina] Governor O. Max Gardner in Washington [DC]—Fred Morrison
supported all of his nieces, as I understand it, to go through the Woman's College and then,
whatever their major was, brought them back to his law firm in Washington to work for him.
And that year that I graduated, one of the girls was leaving, and he sent his niece
down here to interview me. I wanted to relax for the summer, but Fred Morrison got on the
phone and told me he had a Pullman car ticket. All I had ever done was sit up on a coach car.
[laughs] I didn't know what to do with this Pullman. But Fred Morrison had a way of
convincing you that you didn't really need a rest.
It's interesting to me that now one of the biggest awards probably on this campus is
the O. Max Gardner Award. I worked for that law firm. But I did not know O. Max Gardner
Sr.; I think he had probably passed by then. I did work for his son. O. Max Gardner Jr. was in
Shelby [North Carolina], and he was a victim of multiple sclerosis, I believe. But I did work
for his son at the law firm, not O. Max Gardner Jr., Ralph Gardner. I worked there for a year.
Into the law office one morning came [Chancellor of Woman’s College] Edward
Kidder Graham [Jr.]. I think he had called Fred Morrison one day to say, "I want June
Rainey back on campus as my secretary. Do you mind?" That's the story I heard.
AT: You had had a pretty good relationship with Graham as a senior, as student government
president?
JH: Yes. I keep going back to favorite people on campus. Dean Katherine Taylor [Class of 1928,
dean of women, dean of students, dean of student services, director of Elliott Hall]—I think
was on the committee that awarded me the scholarship.
AT: She was another Salisbury person.
JH: Dean Taylor was from Salisbury. If you go back and look at some of the pictures that are on
record—Katherine Taylor and I looked very much alike then, forty-five years ago.
BC: I thought the very same thing when I looked at the officers of the Class of 1952.
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JH: Whenever we had a review and had to take on faculty roles, I always had to imitate Katherine
Taylor. Dean Taylor—we never called her anything else—was one of our very favorite
people.
AT: Was she popular with the students generally?
JH: Yes. Dean Taylor was very popular.
AT: She's often identified as the person who made them wear gloves, hats, that sort of thing,
when they went downtown. In other words, there was a certain amount of resentment at the
rules and regulations.
JH: There was, but I think we started getting away from that, if I remember.
AT: Yes, I think by the late '40s and '50s it was not nearly as rigorous as it had been in the '30s
and '40s.
JH: Right. Getting back to how I ended up as Graham's secretary, I’m sure Dean Taylor had a lot
to do with that.
AT: But he could have seen you for himself when you were a senior.
JH: Yes, I hope. And I was a graduate in secretarial education. That was my degree.
AT: I see. So you were happy to accept the job.
JH: Yes, I was. I was very excited. At first I didn't want to leave the law office, but I knew it was
an honor to come down here. And Fred Morrison has a way of telling you where you are
needed, so the decision really wasn't that difficult to make. Four of my happiest years had
been spent here at the college. I was happy to come back as an employee.
AT: You got along well with Graham, then, as his secretary?
JH: Yes, very well. A few times he and Mrs. Graham would go out of town, and I went over and
babysat the children. And then I spent the nights over there, so there would be an adult in the
house.
AT: So you got to know Mrs. Graham pretty well too?
JH: Yes. After he left here, I went up there and visited a time or two [in Boston, Massachusetts],
and the two girls came down to visit me when I was working in New York City. That was
fun.
AT: That's interesting. You are aware, of course, of the controversy that surrounded his tenure as
chancellor. What sort of recollections do you have about that?
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JH: I feel like saying, as Forrest Gump [main character of a novel of the same name] would say,
"That's all I've got to say about that." But seriously, I'm not evading your question. I'm just a
very naive person still to this day. A lot of things went over my head. I respected Dr.
Graham, and I respected what he was trying to do for the university. I had the feeling at that
time, and I still do, that there were factions in the faculty, either for Dr. Graham or against
Dr. Graham. There were very strong people on both sides. I do believe Dr. Graham had the
university and the students at heart in what he was trying to do.
AT: He was very popular with the students. There was one point where the student government
passed a resolution in his support.
JH: Yes, yes. He loved the students. We were invited to his home a number of times, to sit and
chat with him. We always got dressed up, in stockings, suits—
AT: This is when you were a student?
JH: Yes, when we were students. His wife was a very lovely person. She served us coffee. We
thought we were just it, being in the chancellor's home. And he wanted to let the students
know what he was trying to accomplish also. It's kind of heady stuff for a student to be
invited into the chancellor's home to hear about the goals of the university. The students
loved him and the student government leaders.
AT: And you think that was consistently pretty much the case?
JH: Yes, while I was a student during his first two years here and then a year later when I came
back as his secretary for three years. I have often thought back to where it all really started.
I'm not so sure where.
AT: The controversy?
JH: Yes.
AT: The general education proposal.
JH: I was just going to say that term, general education proposal, but I was afraid you would ask
me what I thought of the proposal, and I don't know what I thought. [laughs] I'm being frank
with you. I was just his secretary; I didn't understand everything that was going on.
AT: There are those who say the problem was not so much the merits of that proposal, but the
way in which he and the faculty interacted about it. And I think that's probably true.
JH: I don't know whether other people have had these thoughts. I'm not an academically inclined
person; there are a lot of things I don't understand about education. I have taught since I left
here—a lot of substitute teaching—but a lot of the terminology, the ins and outs, I didn't
understand a lot of it. I think maybe Chancellor Graham was ahead of his time at our
university. I'm speaking as a student and his secretary.
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AT: Certainly a different personality from Chancellor [Walter Clinton] Jackson.
JH: Exactly. Dr. Jackson was a lovable grandfather type, and here you have this young chancellor
coming in that all the students just liked because you felt like you could get down right down
on his level, almost. Dynamic. I always felt like that grin of his, students—[unclear]. He was
really a great [unclear], I thought.
BC: Do you think, since [Chancellor Julius] Foust and Jackson had been on the faculty before
they became chancellor, that Graham may have been resented as an outsider?
JH: I hadn't thought about that, but that may be a possibility. Another thing, maybe—sometimes
Chancellor Graham gave the impression that he was a cocky sort of administrator. I
personally liked him, but then all the faculty who had been here for years and had worked
with Dr. Jackson—I can see that there might be some feelings of animosity.
AT: How much were you aware of this rift developing at the time?
JH: I just remember that toward the end, it got difficult for the chancellor to get much done other
than trying to answer these innuendoes that would be received. Again, he didn't confide a lot
of things in me about this because I think there were a lot of things between himself and the
faculty that I didn't know about. There wasn't a lot of written communication. You all would
know better than I; therefore I'm not aware—
AT: An awful lot got aired in the newspapers.
JH: This is right. You were afraid to pick up the newspaper. And I knew a lot of it was absolutely
not true. I would still defend him to this day. Again, I think he was probably ahead of his
time in his goals for the university.
AT: The faculty, as you said, were divided. There was a pro-Graham faction. Physical education
faculty seemed to have been in his camp.
JH: Very strongly for him, physical education. I think there were some, probably, in the language
departments. But it's been a long time, and I could be wrong. My memory's not what it used
to be.
AT: Were you aware of any problems between him and Dean [Mereb] Mossman [sociology and
anthropology faculty, dean of instruction, dean of the college, dean of the faculty, vice
chancellor of academic affairs]?
JH: Yes, but if you asked me to comment on the problems, I couldn't tell you. It was probably a
matter of those who were supporting Dr. Mossman and those who were supporting Dr.
Graham.
AT: There may be some reason to think of her as caught in the middle—attempting on the one
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hand to be loyal to her boss; on the other hand, sympathizing with some of the objections.
JH: I think you're very right, there. She wanted to be loyal and do the job she was expected to do
and represent the faculty, but also she was reporting to Chancellor Graham, so she had to
have a certain degree of loyalty there. She was caught in the middle, I think.
AT: She announced her resignation in the summer or fall of '55, and steps were taken toward
forming a search committee to find a successor. Then as it turned out, he left in the spring of
'56, and she stayed on as dean.
JH: Yes, I vaguely remember that. She was still here when he left.
AT: It must have been very tense, particularly in the winter and spring of 1955-56. There were
investigating committees. There was one that met off campus in the Church of the Covenant,
I think, and another one that came and met someplace on campus: the [Acting President of
the Consolidated University of North Carolina System William D.] Carmichael Committee.
JH: I'm vaguely aware of that now that you remind me, but I really don't remember those two
committees and the church.
AT: That was the earlier one, and it was in that academic year.
JH: But that term Carmichael Committee rings a bell. Again, I'm very naïve—
AT: You were not in any sense a counselor to or advisor to Graham. You were strictly his
secretary?
JH: No, I was strictly his secretary. But at the same time a personal friend, I thought, on a non-professional
basis. I would do anything for him. I would stay late and work, if necessary.
AT: Was it necessary, often?
JH: Yes, because it was just my way of working. I couldn't get a lot done through the day.
AT: You were used to long hours already? [laughs]
JH: Yes. I was used to long hours, so I didn't mind staying and working, and I lived right across
the Spring Garden Street from the office. So it was easy for me to scoot across the street and
still work at night time. He had ordinarily left earlier.
[Interviewer’s Note: After the tape recorder was turned off, I remembered belatedly to ask
about rumors that Chancellor Graham had engaged in extramarital affairs on and off campus,
and that he was a heavy drinker if not an alcoholic. Mrs. Honeycutt put no credence in these
reports, attributing them to the hostilities that had developed on campus. Nor did she think
him a heavy drinker, and especially not an alcoholic. She said she would have seen evidence
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of alcoholism at work, but did not. ]
AT: You worked for a few months for Acting Chancellor [William Whatley] Pierson. As I recall,
you left in the fall of '56. What was your impression there?
JH: Oh, he was another grandfatherly figure. I kept telling him that I'd be happy to stay on, just
because I loved the Woman's College. I would have stayed and swept floors if he wanted me
to. [laughs] He was—I just got the impression he was "kind of a caretaker" until they found a
successor.
AT: As you know, he served two separate one-year terms, before and after Chancellor [Gordon]
Blackwell.
JH: Right. Now, I didn't know the chancellors after that, except by name. Chancellor Blackwell
came to an alumnae meeting in New York when I lived there. That's the only opportunity
I've had to get to know chancellors, other than through the Alumni News because I wasn't as
active on the campus then.
AT: You, then, went to New York City after that? You had a job offer there?
JH: Yes. I went looking for this particular job. I was impressed with the person at graduation that
interviewed from the Eastman Chemical Products. I'm trying to think who came over to the
Woman's College to interview, probably every year, for secretarial science. They always
reported to Kingsport, Tennessee, which was the home office. A number of our graduates
before our class were employed by them. I just thought it would be nice to go over there
because I knew some girls from the College. They sent me a plane ticket to go to New York
City. They needed a secretary up there. That's how I ended up there. Again, my father said,
"You don't want to go to that big city by yourself." I guess by that time I was twenty-eight
years old. [laughs]
AT: You were still his little girl.
JH: I was still his little girl.
AT: Helen Yoder took your place. She served for a long time.
JH: I'm happy to report that I recommended Helen.
AT: Is that right? How did you happen to know her?
JH: I got to know some of the younger faculty as the chancellor's secretary and would be
invited—that was kind of a heady experience too—the faculty whom I had sat in awe of in
class, and now they invited me to their homes, particularly some from the physical education
department. They were very nice to me. And Helen was secretary to Dr. [Katherine] Roberts
of the School of Home Economics.
14
AT: Yes, dean of home economics.
JH: I don't think she had been on campus that long.
AT: She had not. Neither had Dean Roberts.
JH: Right. Dean Roberts probably was brought here by Dr. Graham.
AT: She was. And she left abruptly at the time he did.
JH: Exactly. I think several of them did, didn't they?
AT: [Dr. Michael] Casey in drama did. Those are the two that I remember particularly.
JH: In my estimation, Helen Yoder was the person for that job. I was happy to recommend her.
AT: She served until 1980, I think.
JH: I was very proud of the job she did. The office was in disrepair, so to speak. And you wanted
to get someone who could at least help to bring things back together again. We're still
friends.
AT: What were your impressions about the admitting of the first black students in 1956. This
would have been just as you were leaving, and so you may not have very many memories of
it.
JH: That's true. I really don't have any memory of an upheaval. I personally thought they
belonged here, and I'm happy to see that we do have a student body in which they're well
represented. I was very pleased to see that the nice lady who won an award today. I can't
remember her name.
AT: JoAnne Smart Drane [Class of 1960], one of the first two black students in 1956, is now a
member of the Board of Trustees.
JH: Good. I wasn't aware of that.
AT: The other black student who came with her in '56 died not too many years after graduation
[Bettye Tillman Davis Sanders, Class of 1960].
JH: Do I remember that they were in one dorm?
AT: Yes, Shaw Dorm. Segregated in one wing or at least one floor of one wing by themselves.
That was the plan for the first two or three years, I think.
JH: I don't remember that there was any real big problem. You could tell me.
15
AT: There were none.
JH: I think that's testimony to the pride that people have in the Woman's College.
AT: It was written up in the Greensboro newspapers, but it was not written up in either The
Carolinian or the Alumnae News [Alumni Association magazine] for years.
JH: Oh, is that true?
AT: What was your attitude at the time and what is it today about coeducation—the transition to
university status?
JH: Well, I wish I had Dr. Richard Bardolph's [history professor] letter to me. That should go into
the archives. I have it at home. Lo and behold, in 1995—forty-three years after 1952—I was
very happy to receive a two-page letter telling me of Chancellor [Patricia] Sullivan calling
him into her office and asking him just what was it that made the Woman's College what it
was? He was retired. He tried to share with her that we were a small liberal arts college, the
pride of the state as a women's college. He confided to me in this letter that we lost a lot
when we became coed. He probably won't like it this, but in talking to her, he suddenly
remembered my story. He said he went to the university library and found the write-up in
Time magazine. Then, he said, he went back to her and told her, "This is what I was talking
about Woman's College. This kind of thing doesn't happen anymore."
AT: I know that's his view of coeducation. What's yours? [laughs]
JH: I was one of those alumnae who hated to see the college go—to bring in the men. It was just
a pride that we had as a women's college.
AT: Did you ever have the feeling that you, collectively, were being discriminated against
because you were a women's college? There were people then and earlier who had the
opinion that the institution was definitely the third leg—
JH: Oh, yes, yes. We did feel that we were discriminated against—that we weren't getting what
we deserved because we were the women over here among the three schools. But we still
had that pride, and we wanted to stay. But we wanted our share also. [laughs]
AT: Were you aware of the circumstances that existed when the decision was made? [The
University of North Carolina at] Chapel Hill and [North Carolina] State [University, Raleigh,
North Carolina] were going coeducational?
JH: They weren't coeducational before that?
AT: They were allowing women in only if they were in the upper classes majoring in fields that
weren't available here. But they were opening up the gates by the early '60s.
16
JH: Yes, I was one of those who was very disappointed that men were coming in. I guess it's that
love and pride about being Woman's College. But today I can say I'm especially proud
of the University of North Carolina at Greensboro. [unclear ] [laughs] And the joys and
goals that we met when we were WC [Woman’s College].
At the same time, I can report to you from our class at its forty-fifth reunion—I have
never seen our girls so excited over anyone as they are over Chancellor Sullivan. When she
spoke today at the alumni meeting—I've got chill bumps telling about it. This was her first
introduction to most of our alumni. She hasn’t been here too long.
AT: January 1995.
JH: She got up and spoke, and you could hear a pin drop. She had us mesmerized. She did not
have one note in front of her. She made us feel all over again that pride in the Woman's
College because most of the audience today were Woman's College graduates, not UNCG
[The University of North Carolina at Greensboro].
AT: I only saw one male all day yesterday on campus.
JH: You don't expect the forty-fifth reunion to be heavily attended compared with the 50th. But,
lo and behold, we had almost seventy people back for our forty-fifth. We were so pleased
with that. When she got up and spoke to us, that just gave us the pride of the Woman's
College all over again—that we did have this dynamic person, and she was a lady to
represent us. [laughs]
AT: This is your first reunion since she became chancellor?
JH: Exactly. For most of them in there, it was their first introduction to her.
To go back to what it was that made the Woman's College what it was—those
reunioning classes, the Class of 1950, they were very strong. Of course, we have our fiftieth
coming up. They had the president of the Alumni Association called out all the classes
present to recognize us, and the closer she got beyond to about 1982 or 1987, the smaller
they got in numbers represented. To me there's something that's just not right in the student
body. Why aren't they coming back strong like we did? And like the fiftieth reunion class?
AT: Do you know how that would have stood in, say, the 1950s? How many five- and ten-year
people were coming back then?
JH: I assume they were strong, although I cannot verify that. I can tell you everything about the
Class of 1952. Our first one would have been 1957. [laughs]
BC: You were a unique group. I met just a few of you, and they were just excited about
everything.
JH: We were. As I told my classmates, they're my second family.
AT: What was your attitude toward the big controversy a few years ago between the Alumni
17
Association and Chancellor [William] Moran, the administration at that time? Was this
something you were involved in directly?
JH: No, Allen, and I wish I had been because I did not understand a lot that was going on. It just
seemed a controversy that should not have been happening at UNCG. I'm an idealist, I guess,
and I just think that things should keep going on an even keel, getting greater and greater.
Then when you have these controversies, I just feel, personally, you're hitting at my college.
I can't report that I was that involved in the alumni affairs. I was in Delaware at that time and
my girls were still in school at that time, and I couldn't get back down here and be as active
as I can be now that they're grown. I wasn't involved enough to be knowledgeable about it.
AT: Is it your impression that alumni are reasonably happy now with the status as it stands now?
JH: Yes, I think so. I think it's going to be even stronger the more they hear Chancellor Sullivan.
I've never seen our class so mesmerized by a person. I feel so strong that she's going to put us
back on the map where we should be. And we're going to get our share of that money in
Raleigh. [laughs]
AT: She certainly wants to do that.
JH: If she stays with us, that's what we're going to do. I'm contemplating having a second
residence in North Carolina so that I can be one of those voters. [laughs]
AT: We can use a lot of additional support. Anything that you want to add, that we've missed?
JH: I don't think so, other than I'll apologize if I'm sounding so self-serving. But I hope I'm getting
across to you the pride that the Class of 1952 has in this college. There's just something
special about our class. And it shows by the number that come back for reunion.
AT: This has been pretty constant over the years?
JH: Exactly. You just wait until the year 2002. I just hope you ask me to come back in here and
talk to you again. [laughs]
AT: Thank you very much for coming in.
JH: It's been my pleasure to come back and talk. I could talk about the Woman's College and my
class until doomsday. [laughs]
[End of Interview]