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UNCG CENTENNIAL ORAL HISTORY PROJECT COLLECTION
INTERVIEWEE: Frances Ferguson Brinkley
INTERVIEWER: Missy Foy
DATE: February 19, 1990
[Begin Side A]
MF: If you could start just by telling me a little bit about your education and what you've been
doing since you were at the Woman's College [of the University of North Carolina].
FB: Well, after I was at Woman's College, then I went on to get a master’s degree at the
University of North Carolina [at Chapel Hill]. And I was doing that at the same time that I
was teaching. I taught first grade for a few years in Winston-Salem, and then I taught fifth
grade and sixth grade for a number of years here in Durham. And then for a little while I
wasn't doing that, and actually for a couple of years I was a Welcome Wagon Hostess. But
then I got to doing real estate, and I had my own real estate company for about fourteen
years and I have been with Fonville Morrissey for a little over three years.
And those are the professional things I've done, and then by way of other things,
feel that the—my experiences at Woman’s College prepared me for—I have been in the
Junior League here and have had several offices and have been on a number of
community boards. Well, as you can see, some of them—I was on the United Way board
and the beauty thing in Durham board, and I got a certificate of appreciation from the
governor. All of these were just the—I feel, a result of the training, the leadership
training that I had when I was in college.
MF: Okay. Could you tell me a little bit about student life when you were at Woman’s
College?
FB: I feel that it may have been closer than it is now, partly because it was not coeducational
and our dorms were much smaller. And we felt really close, the girls in our dorm, and, as
I said, I felt really close to my roommate. And we've kept up with each other all through
the years. I guess so close that I cried all the way through my graduation. [laughs] My
father was embarrassed because I cried walking down the aisle, but, at any rate, I really
had a good close feeling to UNCG [The University of North Carolina at Greensboro].
And we had faculty advisors then to whom we also were very close. And our—my
faculty advisor, as a matter of fact, came to our wedding and was really close to his girls
all the time that we were in college and really served as an advisor to help us get through
the rough spots and change direction when we needed to change direction.
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MF: During a typical day on campus, what kinds of things can you tell me about that typical
day that would give us some idea about how life usually went on campus?
FB: Well you signed up for as few eight o'clock classes as possible. [laughs]
MF: I'm sure.
FB: But often you weren't that fortunate and the very classes that you wanted most were
going to be eight o'clock classes. And Mr. [Dr. James W.] Painter was my faculty
advisor, and he also was my English teacher and he wanted to get everybody wide awake
in the mornings. And I can see him right now, when it was an eight o'clock class and
everybody was a little naughty, then he would just hop right up on top of his desk.
[laughs]
But I guess we sort of, we—usually there was a student activity center there, and
we often met people there during the morning as we needed a snack or something, and
we—most of us ate in the dining room then. And I was a member of the Baptist student
union, and I spent some time at the Baptist student union building. And, of course, I did
practice teaching while I was there. And when I was doing that, that took a good deal of
time.
MF: What about dorm life? Was there anything special in particular that you can tell us?
FB: Well, again we were very close to the people in our dorm. And my roommate was the
(I've forgotten now exactly what to call it), but anyway she went back junior year to be
head of the freshman dorm that we had been in—Cotton, when we were freshmen. And
so we were close to our group of freshmen.
There was a kitchen in each dorm, and we did cook and do that kind of thing at
night in the dorm. We had meetings in our dorms, and I feel that my life there may well
have prepared me, as I mentioned, not only for leadership things that I've been able to do,
but I really think that I developed a more liberal outlook on life than I—for the real
world—than I later found people who went to other types of schools had. I welcomed
people. It didn't matter what their financial status might have been or—then, as it came
along, it really didn't seem to matter about people because that was the kind of
background training we had at UNCG, I think.
MF: Weren't there a lot of rules and regulations to follow living in the dorm?
FB: Well, there were, so far as you had to be in at a certain time and all that, but nothing to
compare with Greensboro College or—. I had come from Raleigh, and the girls' school
there was so—like you could only go out if you had a double date, and you could only go
out wearing gloves and all that kind of—you can imagine. Well, we didn't have any of
that at UNCG.
MF: But did you have to sign in and out?
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FB: We did have to sign in and out.
MF: How did that work?
FB: Well, you just, as I recall—I may not recall this correctly, but there was just a book at the
front desk, and you signed out when you were going out and you signed in when you
came in. And it was explained to us—and I think it was probably a very good thing—that
this was really, as much as anything, in case of an emergency and they needed to reach
you. Like if something happened to a parent or something and they really needed to get
you in a hurry—where are you?
MF: Uh huh. And what about with the classrooms and the academic side of being a student at
UNC—well at Woman's College? What were the classes like?
FB: Not so different I think than they are now. I've been back a few times, and I think they
are not. There are a few classes that are much improved now. Buildings are improved,
and, of course, the gym is much improved. [laughs] But basically I don't think they're
very different.
MF: Okay. What about the range of classes offered? Do you remember?
FB: There was a very good range of classes offered, which is one of the things I meant with
my somewhat very liberal education. I—my history teacher and sociology teachers were
way ahead of their time. When—you know, I would speak to people from other colleges
and universities about it, they would look like, "What!"Or you'd go home to your parents
even, and you're saying these things—and now I realize that they are the very things that
flow right in to what is new today, but they were way ahead of their time.
MF: So they stayed on top of—?
FB: Very much on top of.
MF: Okay.
FB: They had an excellent—like my German teacher was from Germany. And there— which
I thought was excellent, that they could get somebody of that caliber. And the teachers by
and large were of a superior quality.
MF: Okay. What department—what was your major?
FB: My major was elementary education.
MF: Oh so you were in the education department most of the time?
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FB: Uh huh.
MF: And I know the education department has changed a lot over the years. How do you
remember it?
FB: Well I started off—and so my freshman year was mostly spent that way—I started off
being a music major. It turned out that really wasn't my favorite thing, and that was
where my faculty advisor came in. There one time, and he said "Frances, it just doesn't
really look like this is where you're happiest. Why don't you—you're doing very well in
the education part and you're doing—. Why don't you consider how you can sort of flow
these things together?" And so I did.
And, well, Dr. [Eugenia McIver] Hunter was head of the elementary education,
and she was wonderful. And I think she remained there a number of years after we were
gone. And she was just such a wonderful person to look up to and yet be very close to,
that I think she's been a great example for all of us. And I truly came out of there
enjoying every single day that I taught.
MF: Yeah, that's good. How was the program set up? I know—you know, I realize it's hard to
remember like—you know I'm not asking what all courses did you take and all that, but
do you remember basically how that program was set up for the elementary ed[ucation]?
FB: Oh, um. I don't remember that much about it I guess—in exact courses.
MF: All right, but—. So I guess there were probably a set of courses you had to take first?
FB: Right. Right.
MF: And then do your student teaching?
FB: I do remember that after I did my student teaching, I thought, “Hmm, I wish I'd done my
student teaching before I took some of those courses because then I would have done
better with the course or gotten more out of them.” After you have the real world
experience.
MF: Oh, I'm sure. Do you remember about—? Well, I know you were saying you were very
close to your faculty advisor, what about in general the relationship with students to
faculty?
FB: I think it was very good because I've heard some of the other people say that they had a
very good relationship with their faculty advisor and felt very close, and there was a great
mutual admiration and respect.
MF: So even with faculty that weren't necessarily your advisor, but just maybe a professor—
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FB: Right.
MF: Okay, so people would feel very comfortable going for advice perhaps?
FB: Right. Right. My German professor, who really spoke very broken English, I still felt
very close to.
MF: And what about traditions? There were a lot of traditions at Woman’s College. There
was the Daisy Chain—
FB: The Daisy Chain. And when we got our blue coats, uh, that was sort of the highlight of
my life. I felt like I had arrived on campus when I got my [laughs] blue coat.
MF: Yeah, and that went along with the class you were in?
FB: Right. Right. Some of the coats—classes had green coats, and some had red coats. Ours
happened to be blue.
MF: Okay. I know other people have talked about the tradition of getting coats, and some
have said that they—that the class designed some part of the jacket. Do you remember,
did your—? What was your jacket? How was it unique?
FB: Well, I wore it for years. It was navy blue and had white piping around the collar and on
the pockets, and then there was the UNCG crest on the pocket right here.
MF: Okay. What about Daisy Chain? Could you tell me about Daisy Chain?
FB: Um, well, it was quite an honor to be part of Daisy Chain. And it was sort of—as I
remember it, this was something that the underclassmen did for the upperclassmen to
walk through the Daisy Chain.
MF: Where did the daisies come from?
FB: They grew close around campus. And so you spent the whole day before making the
chain, going out and picking daisies. [laughs]
MF: Who usually were the ones involved with getting the daisies and making the daisy chain?
FB: Campus leaders.
MF: Oh. Okay. So they were selected?
FB: Right.
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MF: And what about the war going on? You started in what '45?
FB: Right.
MF: How did the war affect campus life?
FB: Well, the war was just over then.
MF: Right.
FB: But there were a number of—and I don't know exactly what army base they would have
been, but I know there must have been army base people near there because they would
come on weekends an— like looking for dates or something.
MF: Uh huh. Did it seem like there were still a lot—even during the years that you were in
school—that there was still a lot of carryover, a lot of effects from the war having been
going on?
FB: Everybody was just so relieved that it was over. Because we'd come through the time
from '41 to '45 when you felt it might last forever. And I do remember the happiest time
of my life, D-Day [landing of 160,000 Allied troops in Normandy, France, on June 6,
1944], when, you know, the tears really just—. I can cry now just to think about it, just
roll down my face, just to think that, "Oh, the war's over."
MF: Yeah. So I know some people had talked about who'd been in school during the war, at
Woman’s College, and talked about a little bit of rationing in the cafeteria?
FB: Oh yes. There was that.
MF: That was still there?
FB: A little of that. And people said, and I don't ever know whether it was true or not, that we
were still getting the powdered eggs [both laugh] and all that.
MF: I think they still say that now, so—
FB: Lots of moaning and groaning about the cafeteria food, but, as you say, I understand
there was everywhere, so—
MF: How did it work out being a women's campus as far as male visitors? Was that an
important part of campus life?
FB: Very important part of campus life. [laughs] There’s no mistake about that. But they
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certainly—there was much more restriction in the dorms. They could visit with you in the
parlor only or in the downstairs kitchen if you were cooking down there. And any time
they were going to need to come to your room to bring a suitcase or heavy boxes for you,
you went down the hall screaming, "Man on the hall!" [laughs]
MF: What about—I know that there were the so-called parietal rules. How did people seem to
react to those? Did it just seem like a part of life? Or did some students dislike the
regulations placed on them or did some actually like them? What was the feeling among
the students there for all that? Like the signing in and out of the dorms and—?
FB: Well most of these students came from homes where they told their parents where they
were going and when they'd be in. I mean, it was sort of more of the norm for that period
of time. I'd always been brought up that way, and it wouldn't have occurred to me to do
otherwise. So it didn't seem that different to me. I mean, I don't know, it may have for
other people, but I never heard any great resentment about signing in and signing out.
MF: What about, there was this required chapel on Tuesdays?
FB: Yes.
MF: Tell me about that.
FB: Well, it was called chapel, but it really was more a time of meeting in a central place
where important announcements were given, and they usually had a speaker who might
be important or something. It wasn't chapel as you think of a church chapel now because
it was an interfaith, always, kind of thing. And it was not addressed as a religious
meeting. It was addressed as a person who had maybe outstanding things to say. And I
can't right this minute recall any particular speakers we had, but sometimes excellent,
sometimes not, who had excellent things to say to us about living life. But then also at
that particular time, any announcements that were important to us were given.
Kind of like we have a staff meeting here one day a week, and as much as
anything, it is time for our manager to tell us, "These announcements are important."
MF: Yeah. What else can you tell me about student life? What are some of the high points,
some of the most important things you remember, that really give a feel for student life
on campus in Greensboro?
FB: Well, as I mentioned, I was a part of the Baptist student union, and I enjoyed the things
that we did there, the parties and all that we had from there. And—
MF: Did they still have societies that you went to and—?
FB: Oh yes, and I was an Adelphian, and I guess that was kind of a high point, you know,
when you were—. What difference it made, I don't know, because everybody was going
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to be invited to one of the four societies, but I guess you were hoping that you'd be in the
society with your best friend or something of the sort. And so you waited for that slip to
come under your door [laughter] that was going to tell you what society you were in. And
if you were in the one with your good friends, you were thrilled. And if you were not,
you were very disappointed.
The first year I was there, my roommate was a girl from home, and then Cookie
[Clara Cooke Griffin, class of 1949], who was later my roommate, roomed with
somebody that she had not known prior to coming there. And then she and I became very
good friends during our freshman year and decided we'd room together after that. And
so, with no hard feelings to anybody involved, we just decided that, and so we roomed
together from then on.
MF: What about—was there a particular dorm perhaps that was really the dorm to be in?
FB: Well, of course, since we were in Cotton we thought that was the freshman dorm.
[laughs] And then, yes you did put down first choices and that kind of thing, but you
almost never, if you were going into your Sophomore year, got your first choice. And I
remember putting down Weil and knowing there was no chance, so then my next choice I
guess was Mary Foust, and I was in Mary Foust my sophomore year, and then I was in
Weil junior and senior years.
MF: Okay, so usually it was just—
FB: No, not junior and senior year because junior year we went back to Cotton [Dormitory]
with what Cookie was doing there, so it was actually senior year before we got to Weil.
MF: Okay. So was Weil a good dorm to get in?
FB: It was down at the end—you know the freshman dorms are along here, and it was down
there at the end. And it was just considered a real good dorm to be in, and I don't know
why. It was one of the newer dorms, maybe that was it. But there were girls who were a
class behind me living right across the hall, so it wasn't an all- senior floor or anything
like that. And they—we and they became real good friends. Some of them are still my
friends today.
MF: Oh, I'm sure. Do you remain active with alumni affairs at all?
FB: Only moderately. I went to our last meeting here, and there was only one girl from our
class there. You know when it gets to be a bigger and bigger, it's kind of like the drop in
the lake of water. It gets to be a bigger and bigger group and you only see a tiny ripple
there, then somehow or other you don't feel very closely associated in that.
MF: Do you know anything about the controversy going on with Chancellor [William E.]
Moran?
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FB: No I'd like to know more about that. I mean I know only—I do see some of the people
occasionally who were very active when I was there and have been very active and—
Martha Fowler [McNair, class of 1949] was very active and has been very active in
alumni things, and I know she's been very upset about what's taken place.
MF: What do you know about what's taking place?
FB: Only that it seems that I get the feeling that alumni are not seeming quite so important to
him as big business. Am I right?
MF: I'm not sure. That's why I'm asking.
FB: And I know that this is a direction that many of the universities and colleges are taking.
For their contributions, they're going after—courting big business because more big
bucks will come from there. But there still has to be a real feeling of cultivating alumni
feelings, I believe. And certainly, if you were to do away with Alumni House, it would be
a terrible mistake, I feel.
MF: Yea, I'm sure. I think someone else had mentioned the issue of something to do with the
Alumni House. Do you know—is there—are people afraid that there is some plan to do
away with the Alumni House?
FB: Well, I guess I've just heard that rumor from some of the meetings, that this was part of
the plan and that, you know, in the expansion things—that it really—or to use it for other
purposes and not as an alumni house.
MF: Right. What about out-of-state students? I'm sure there were some out-of-state students,
and I'm sure about this time, probably even a few students from out of the country?
FB: Right. Right. Although I'm sure not nearly so many as are there now. For one thing it was
very much harder for people from out of the country to get in this country partly again as
a result of the war, I'm sure. It would have been well nigh impossible for an oriental to
get here. And, of course, now there are Orientals everywhere. But they were still pretty
much looked askance at on the West coast because people weren't sure what was going to
happen. I mean not we people, I mean the government itself felt that a period of trying
out had to take place before we were going to take in Orientals.
And even, I guess to some extent, people from Europe, there was—it just wasn't
as free and easy as it is now. But people from other parts of the country, there were a
number of them. Although there again I expect, as there are at Duke [University] and
[The University of North] Carolina [at Chapel Hill] and all these other places, there are
many more now than there were then.
MF: So did you have a feel for the presence of out-of-state students, or did it feel more like a
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local campus?
FB: I guess on the whole it felt more like a local, although some of my good friends were
from out of state, but there were more people from in state, I'm sure, partly economically.
It was, of course—the tuition was less for people to go there who were coming from in
state. And if you were coming from out of state, the tuition is right much more. And it's
that way in most states, and so just for pure economics people tended, I guess, more to go
to their own state universities.
MF: And what about the type of student? What was the average type of student at UNC?
Well, at Woman’s College, excuse me. What's the typical student? Really was this
someone who was very integrated into the academic life of campus, or was the social life
more important? What was the typical student like?
FB: That's very hard to say because they—. There—
MF: Oh I'm sure it is.
FB: —was such a variety. And I guess some of the people would have appealed to me so
much more than others that I tended to see more the people that might—Cookie and
Martha and all of those people who were always into student leadership activities. And
they were the people that I saw more of, and I am aware that there were some students
that probably never met anybody outside their own little hall.
MF: Yeah.
FB: And you said, “hello, hi,” and that was about it.
MF: What about student government?
FB: Well, I felt it was very important and a really good training ground for the kind of things
you would be doing later on.
MF: Were you involved in the student government?
FB: Yes, through the Y[WCA].
MF: Through the Y.
FB: Which was a very important organization then. I don't know what it is now, but I was
president of the Y.
MF: Okay. And how was it involved in—on the campus?
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FB: Well, we had, of course, leadership training things, and you were part of the student
government meetings that made decisions about what was to take place. And a part of the
interfaith council, and, during, between my junior year and senior year, one of the things,
as president of the Y, I went to what was called president's school, and the one I went to
was at Columbia University. And I was there for six weeks, and that was wonderful—just
a really rewarding experience for me, which, I guess, is one of my liberalization
experiences because there were people there who were of all races. And I think not
everybody had that opportunity at that time in their lives.
MF: So compared to other universities that you knew of, you felt like UNCG was a very
liberal and open environment?
FB: Yes. And for the most part, really, some way ahead of its time. Good preparation.
MF: Okay. And are there other things you'd like to make sure you mention?
FB: Well this will give you a clue then. One of the things I was involved in—there was the
international relations Committee and the social science forum committee. And so, I
mean, you don't even think about a school having international—you asked something
about. But we were really, I think, striving to understand more about international affairs
and international people.
MF: Do you think that had anything to do with the war that had just been going on?
FB: It may have. I don't know whether it was something that had been done in the past or not.
And I don't know anything else particularly to tell you, except that I really just—as I said,
I loved my experience there. I wasn't so crazy about it freshman year because I had been
a real homebody before. And so I somewhat hated to leave home. But then I very quickly
became involved in things and enjoyed it thoroughly.
MF: Okay.
[End of Interview]
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