Oral history interview with Elisabeth Bowles, 1990 [text/print transcript]

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UNCG CENTENNIAL ORAL HISTORY PROJECT COLLECTION
INTERVIEWEE: Elisabeth Bowles
INTERVIEWER: Linda Danford
DATE: December 4, 1990
[Begin Side A]
LD: Dr. Bowles, can you tell me when you came to UNCG [The University of North Carolina at
Greensboro] and in what capacity?
EB: I came here as a student in 1945.
LD: Oh, I didn't know that. Well, let's talk about that. That must have been the year the war
ended. What was UNCG like then? Woman's College [of the University of North Carolina]?
EB: Yeah, it was Woman's College. It was very small, and we were, I think, very well behaved.
Very strict in many respects. I enjoyed it a great deal—had some very good classes. Didn't
study as much as I should have, but I valued my education I got here.
LD: What was your major?
EB: English.
LD: And who were the professors in the English department at that time?
EB: Well, my favorite was James Painter [English professor], and Doris Betts [class of 1954 (did
not graduate), honorary degree 1989, North Carolina author] mentioned him in a tape that
she did recently about his influence on her writing. He didn't influence my writing like that.
And Leonard Hurley was head of the English department. I remember he invited the English
majors to his house for dinner. And May Bush [English professor] was another one of my
favorites. And Jane Summerell [class of 1910, English professor], who was here almost
forever, she was a marshal when they laid the cornerstone for the first McIver Building, and
she was on the faculty when they opened it—took out the things that she had put in, I think,
in 1970, something like that.
LD: Was it—it doesn't sound like it was all women in the department either.
EB: No. No. There were a lot of men in the department. [Dr.] Anna Reardon was one of my—
she was not in English, but she was one of my favorite professors because she passed me in
physics.
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LD: I interviewed Anna Joyce about two months ago. She told me about the courses that she
taught and flying during the war, and it was very interesting.
EB: She also taught photography.
LD: And was in charge of all the audio-visual equipment on campus.
EB: And through the years, I saw lots of good movies because she brought them to campus—
even, in fact, after I came back as a faculty member.
LD: So you graduated—let's see, you came in 1945, and you graduated in—?
EB: I graduated in '50, because I had polio in '49, no '48, and was out of school the entire year.
LD: Did you go home at that time? Where were you from?
EB: Greensboro.
LD: You were from here. Someone was telling me about the polio epidemic in Greensboro, and
I'd like to know something about that. Didn't they have a special hospital?
EB: Yes, and it was—a lot of people volunteered and gave materials, and I've forgotten how
many days it took to build it, but it wasn't very long. It seemed long waiting for it because
we were in the second floor of a newspaper building downtown, one tremendous room with
panel down the middle separating the boys from the girls and I was one of the older patients.
Most of them—some of them were very small babies and teenagers and such.
LD: This was for the purpose of quarantine?
EB: Yes, and treatment.
LD: What kind of treatment did you get? Did they know what they were doing?
EB: They had. It was based on Sister [Elizabeth] Kenny [developed clinical method of treating
polio]. And the worst thing I remember is they brought in these round things that steamed
wool blankets. And we had to lie with the wool, wet wool blanket, on top of us and another
blanket on top of that. And we did the front, and then we turned over and did the back. And
then, another thing, they had—what's it called? Hubbard Tubs. They were shaped so that
you could swing your arms out, and it lowers into this water that was so hot it would turn us
red. You would have to exercise. And I don't think that was accepted treatment after that.
But the nurses were very nice. They came from all over the country to help out. I guess a lot
of people were, they supposed, were afraid of polio. But I had polio—I first found out I had
it in the middle of July. And I was the two hundred fifty-first person admitted to the hospital
that year.
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LD: Was it an unusually large epidemic here in Greensboro?
EB: Uh, huh. Well, they came from all over the state.
LD: Oh, I see. So this was a center, then, of treatment at the time. So that delayed your education
for two years?
EB: Just one.
LD: One year.
EB: [When] I came back, I had to live in North Spencer [Dormitory] because I had a long leg
brace, and it was more convenient for my classes. And I took a—I think I just took twelve
hours because they didn't know what I was capable of. I did my student teaching in this
building with Mary Hunter [class of 1936], who taught on the [School of Education] faculty
for a long time and died about a dozen years ago.
LD: Now that was something I wanted to ask you about, the Curry School [laboratory school on
campus], because I know you were very active in the school. Did you start teaching
immediately then, after you graduated at Curry?
EB: No. I was very fortunate to be selected to win what was called a Consolidated University
Scholarship. Every year, one girl was selected from the Woman's College to go to
[University of North Carolina at] Chapel Hill to school, and so the English department
called me up and said they were recommending me. And I've forgotten how much it paid,
but it was a very good scholarship. So I went to Chapel Hill and did everything for my
master's except my thesis. And then I got a job teaching in Randleman and taught there for
two years, then went to Reidsville for a year and Burlington two years. And then one
summer, I was in summer school here. And I met the principal [of Curry], Herbert Vaughn,
who's still living, and he said, "What are you going to do next year?" And I said, "Well, I
guess I'll teach at Williams." And he said, "How would you like to teach at Curry?" So I
got my job teaching high school at Curry. And I loved that. The kids were so good. I mean,
they were mischievous, but it was funny-type things they did. And then I started— kept
taking courses, and someone said, "Why don't you get a degree if you're going to keep
taking courses?" So I got my PhD from Chapel Hill, and then, when there was a vacancy
here in English methods and student teaching, I got the job. And I held it until January 1,
1991.
LD: When you will retire?
EB: Uh, huh.
LD: Did you always have students that you were supervising while you were teaching? Is that
how they did it? Was it one student per class, or did you have more than one?
EB: We had—like I taught eleventh- and twelfth-grade English, two sections of each, and ended
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up one for eleventh and one for twelfth. They just taught two hours a day at that time.
LD: How big were your classes? How many students?
EB: They were small. Maybe twenty.
LD: And how were they selected?
EB: They weren't selected.
LD: Well, I mean, it was a limited enrollment.
EB: Well, they chose to come here. But we didn't have the social activities that they had at
Greensboro High School. And so there were a limited number who wanted to come. Now in
the grades, they may have given some kind of test and taken the better students, but in high
school, we gave them a test, but we took everybody.
LD: Oh, really?
EB: I think we took everybody. I don't remember turning anybody down.
LD: When did the—where did the school start out? Did you start out in this building teaching?
EB: Yes.
LD: But it had been somewhere before.
EB: Well, the first—they called it Practice School—was in the basement of a wooden dormitory,
which is where the Alumni House is. And then they built the Curry Building, I think, in
1902 or 1906, which would have been where—in front of where Stone Building is. And
then that got to be an old building, and they needed more space, so they started this building.
And the cornerstone for this one is '26, and the Curry Building down there burned that year
and so it's been in this building since. And the junior high school closed in '68, and the high
school closed in '70 and they closed the elementary school in '71.
LD: What were some of the reasons why they decided to close the school?
EB: Well, it was so small, they felt it really wasn't a good experience, and they—
LD: For the student teachers?
EB: Uh, huh. And they felt—some people felt we weren't innovative enough for a laboratory
school, which was probably true. We thought we were good, but we weren't innovative, and
they wanted the money to spend on other things.
LD: Was there—were there objections to closing the school?
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EB: Oh, yes. Yes. In fact, at one Curry graduation, the students hanged the dean of the School of
Education in effigy out on the flag pole. And they had called the television station and the
newspapers and told they were going to do it.
LD: Who was the dean of the School of Education at that time?
EB: Howell [Ed. Note: Kenneth Howe was dean of School of Education 1958-67].
LD: Howell.
EB: Kenneth Howell. That was embarrassing.
LD: Were you embarrassed?
EB: Yeah, but then I got angry because I went to him to apologize, and he said, “Either I knew
about it, or I was incompetent.”
LD: Neither of which was the case.
EB: Right. They just didn't circulate the petition in my class.
LD: I'm sure they wouldn't have. So you then took up—when did you take up full-time teaching
in the School of Education?
EB: I guess when they closed the Curry School. I mean, they closed the high school, in '69. But I
had been teaching methods for a few years before that.
LD: And then what other courses did you teach?
EB: At that time, I taught the methods. And then when they closed the Curry School, it was a
full-time job to teach the methods and supervise the student teachers. In fact, it was more
than a full time job because one semester, I had fifty in the methods class, so there were lots
of people to supervise. And then I taught the 381s, as you know. And then I picked up
elementary and middle school language arts.
LD: Can you say something about the education curriculum and how it's changed over the years,
and some of the trends that you observed in the training of teachers?
EB: Well, I would say in the secondary programs, basically, they’re the same. The only course
that's been added to the education part of it is a course in reading in secondary school.
They've added some English courses in teaching writing and teaching grammar. They
always had a grammar course, but, anyway, the writing is the main emphasis. In the
elementary, one thing we did was to go from an AB degree to a BS degree. And then we
started requiring more education courses. And I think our students have a weaker
background in content than they did maybe fifteen years ago.
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LD: Do you think that's something that should be changed?
EB: Well, it's being changed, in that the state had mandated a second major so the students can't
just come through with a language arts or a history major. They have to have two majors.
LD: So they have to be language arts and education?
EB: Language arts and history or science and math.
LD: Oh, I see. Two content area majors. I see. What about the number of courses that they take
within the specific content area? Are they increasing the requirements there?
EB: I don't think so.
LD: What about the grade point average?
EB: It's gone up. There was one time—for student teaching we required a 2.0, and then they
went to 2.5, and now it's 2.75 and they're talking about going to a grade point average of 3.0.
LD: Which would be a B average?
EB: Uh, huh.
LD: What about the numbers of students going into education? How has that fluctuated over the
years?
EB: I think it's gradually growing. We're going to have more next semester than we've ever had.
This is in elementary and middle school. And there are more in English this year than we've
had in several years, but they're not sure that isn't a fluke.
LD: You don’t think that this is a result of a lot of publicity that it's been getting? The issue of
teachers—
EB: Well, the English department doesn't know. Of course, there was a time a few years ago
when it was easier to get a job than it is now. We have another change I've noticed. We have
a lot of older students. I had—I think it's about—I have twenty students this semester, and
seven of them were married and had children. And in 1984, I had only one who was married
with children.
LD: I think that's a trend that the university is seeing all across campus. I have a number of older
students, and I've taken a number of courses here over the years, so I fall into that category.
Do you get a lot of—does the School of Education get a lot of direction in terms of
curriculum and requirements from the state, or is it very independent?
EB: No, it's not independent at all. It's from the state and from NCATE, which is the National
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Council for the Accreditation of Teacher Education, and we're undergoing a study now.
They're coming for a visit. And we spent hours and hours doing reports for them. And we
sent them to them, and they sent it back and say, "This is what's wrong with your program."
And we try to correct it and send it back. And that's the point where we are now. We just
sent it back.
LD: And then they come for an on-site inspection or visitation, or whatever they call it. Will that
be in the spring?
EB: No. It will be next year.
LD: Next year. How often do they accredit a department like this?
EB: I think it's changed, but it was every seven years. I think it's going to go to ten. I'm not sure.
LD: And this, you said, is a national, or is this—?
EB: It's national. Of course, we also have the Southern Association of Schools and Colleges, but
if we meet NCATE standards, we sort of automatically meet Southern Association
standards.
LD: What happened if you don't pass an accreditation like that? What are the consequences?
EB: Well, if you're accredited, there's more reciprocity for your students to get certain
certification in other places. And one state had said that if you don't have NCATE
accreditation, you don't get certified, period.
LD: Which state is that?
EB: I think it—I thought it was New Jersey, but now New Jersey has this policy similar to ours
for lateral entry that you can come into the teaching without the education background and
get it on the job.
LD: I had a question I was going to ask you. Now I've forgotten what it was. What about some of
the changes that have taken place on the campus since you came? For instance, coeducation.
How did that affect life on campus, and what kind of a change was it? Was it gradual, or
was it abrupt?
EB: Well, I would say it was gradual because there weren't many men in the beginning. I was
told that the average SAT [Scholastic Aptitude Test and Scholastic Assessment Test] score
dropped.
LD: Did you not notice that yourself?
EB: I didn't have many men for a while. And, let's see, last year I wouldn't have said there was a
difference. This year the women I have are stronger than the men. But, you know, those
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things vary from semester to semester.
LD: Did the School of Education make any changes in its program to attract men or to —?
EB: No. I don't think so.
LD: That didn't make any difference. What about integration?
EB: I didn't have many black students. Out of the twenty I have this semester, I have one. A
principal told me that he needed a minority teacher, K through 4, and I checked, and of all of
the student teachers we have in elementary this semester, there were only three black
students.
LD: Well, there are a lot of elementary—black elementary school teachers out there. Were they
not educated at UNCG, or does this represent a decline in the number of minority students?
EB: I think it's a decline.
LD: Because they're going into other types of—?
EB: It's just like—at one time, teaching was the best job a woman could go into, and so
consequently, it was the best job for a black woman. And now there are other possibilities.
LD: Better-paying?
EB: Uh, huh.
LD: What was going on on campus in the late '60s and '70s?
EB: It was funny that you asked that, because I read [history professor Dr. Robert] Calhoon's
article in the Alumni News about Chancellor [James S.] Ferguson and the problems he had.
And in '69 there was a strike, and student government was trying to help out.
LD: Who struck? You know, a lot of people know that something went on, but an awful lot of
people on campus did not have any idea of what the details were.
EB: Well, it was the cafeteria workers on strike, and some students supporting them and there
was going to be conflict.
LD: Was it wages or racial issues?
EB: Wages. And Calhoon said something about SGA [student government association]
president, Randy Stratton, spoke to the group "manfully." And Randy Stratton's a woman.
And I think that's sort of sexist. He assumed that because it was a SGA president, and he
was called Randy. And so I sent it to her. I told her I thought she'd like to see it. Her name
was Miranda.
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But our students were not as militant as students in some other places. I was that
time—but one time, one of the mills was on strike, or some of the workers were on strike.
And one of our students went over and support—and she was on television as a UNCG
student supporting the strike. And some wealthy woman called up and said, “We needn't
expect any more money from her.” Someone well connected here. “If that's the kind of
students we were producing—.“ I don't know how long—I don't know who she was now,
though. I don't know whether she held to that or not.
LD: Was the student disciplined, do you remember?
EB: No. No. I'm sure she wasn't. She was one of my student teachers, so I would have known.
LD: And now, was this under Ferguson's tenure?
EB: I'm not sure about that. It was under Ferguson they had the cafeteria workers' strike, but I
don't know about the mill strike.
LD: How was Ferguson at handling that kind of situation?
EB: Calmly. I had great respect for Chancellor Ferguson. And not just because he likes cats.
LD: Why else?
EB: Well, I think he had compassion for the students, [and] concern for the faculty. He had a
very kindly manner about him. He could make decisions and things like that, but you always
felt that he weighed them very carefully.
LD: What direction do you think he led the university in?
EB: I think he tried to develop a stronger academic program and bring in more qualified
teachers. He didn't push the research and grant business as much as we now have it pushed.
He was—he had a reputation for being a very fine teacher himself and respected good
teaching. I can remember when the university was so small, that the chancellor's Christmas
party was held at the Chancellor's House. And now when you go to the Christmas thing at
the Alumni House, you can hardly get in, it's so crowded.
LD: And people just sort of revolve through and out the door. What about—I've had people say
things about how nice it was when the faculty was smaller and could socialize some.
Weren't there get-togethers at the beginning and the end of the year? I think a luncheon.
Didn't Mereb Mossman [dean of the College, later vice chancellor for academic affairs]—
EB: We always had a dinner at the beginning of the year. It was small enough we could meet in
say, Spencer Dining Hall. They've changed all that now, so—or one of the other dining
halls—preceded dinner, and we always had fried chicken or, at least, almost always had
fried chicken. And every department chairman got up and introduced his new faculty. And
you knew lots of people.
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LD: And wasn't there a get together out at Piney Lake in the spring?
EB: Uh, huh. I don't remember those as well as the dinner.
LD: It must have made a difference in terms of people getting to know people outside the
department. I think that's probably less—happens less now than it did then.
EB: Well, within the department, in a sense. We used to have, I think, once a year, something for
the School of Education with families, like out at Piney Lake. And the last one I remember
was—well, maybe twelve years ago. We had a covered dish supper, and people brought
games and they went to the gym and played volleyball. And then the next year, the social
committee tried to find time and people to go, and there was not much interest. So now
they're—just the other day, I learned the name of one our faculty members. I'd heard it, of
course, when he was introduced at the School of Education, but I hadn't heard it again
because he's in another department.
LD: Do you feel like the School of Education has—well, I know it's grown. But this dividing up
of the departments—that has to have made things a little bit more channeled and less—
EB: Yes. That's true. And there are a lot more of us. There was a time when we had divisions
instead of departments. And within a division you might have people from different areas.
Like administration might be with curriculum. And we got to know them better because we
fought all the time. So we were just as glad when got rid of divisions because we put this
group on one side and this group on the other, and they didn't have to make decisions
together.
LD: What sorts of things did you fight about?
EB: I don't even remember [unclear] when we fought. I think it was power more than anything
else.
LD: Was it a question of administrative point of view versus teaching point of view?
EB: Well, it was really a matter of people who wanted control who didn't have it. I guess I
shouldn't talk about living people. But there was a lot of conflict. A lot of ugly things said.
LD: Who were some of the outstanding—who were the outstanding deans of the School of
Education, in your opinion?
EB: Well, that's hard to answer, too, because there's been a lot of division there. Paul [?] was
dean when I first came to Curry School. This place was—the university, the college—I told
you it was small enough that we could all eat in the cafeteria. Eight of our courses offices—
downstairs was the office of the dean of the school of education, and he had one secretary.
And Venus Pinnix's [staff member] office was the graduate school. And Dr. [Franklin H.]
McNutt [head of the School of Education and dean of Graduate School] was in there, and he
had, I think, two secretaries. And so Howell [sic; actually Howe] was the next dean, and I
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didn't like him even before he accused me of being either incompetent or contributing to his
being hanged in effigy. Then [Robert M.] O'Kane came and then Dave Reilly, and that's
when we had the conflict because there were some of us who liked Dave Reilly and thought
he was good, and there were some people who didn't. And then [A. Edward] Uprichard
came. And I would say, probably, overall, he's the best. He gets along with lots of people.
He has helped bring in this eighteen million dollar grant that we just got. Have you read
about that?
LD: I probably have, but—
EB: Well, it was formally announced last Friday morning. But they're bringing the regional
center of education from Research Triangle [Park] to UNCG. So we think that's pretty good.
And he gets along well with people. Everybody gets a written greeting on his or her birthday
from the dean. Handwritten. And he invites all the staff—he and his wife invite all the staff
to dinner at some time or other.
LD: That’s a nice touch. I think that socializing within the department is affected tremendously
by the sociability of the chairman or the dean, in this case. It seems to me that in the
schools—I've noticed teachers a good bit more disillusioned and unhappy with the
administration, the central administration, of various school districts than even ten years ago.
EB: Well, that may be changing a little bit because they're giving teachers a little more power
than they've ever had. The teacher I saw at Eastern [Guilford High School] this morning was
saying that she had to write up the school improvement program at a committee to decide
how they were going to improve their school. They have incentives, monetary incentives for
teachers to work on such special projects. And that's causing conflict between teachers,
instead of between administration and teachers.
LD: I think any kind of recognition like that, subjective as it has to be, is going to create some
problems.
EB: One thing that I hear teachers complain about is discipline and the lack of respect from
students and the lack of cooperation from parents. And these are people who have been
teaching twenty, twenty-five years.
LD: Do you think that's responsible for a number of the problems that we're seeing in the
schools? Lack of achievement and—
EB: Oh, probably. There are just some kids who are in school because they want to see their
friends, and they don't care whether they learn anything or not. And they're often very rude
to their teachers. They use the "F" word sometimes talking to teachers.
LD: I imagine it's fairly frequently in high school. Do you have any courses in the department
that help teachers deal with stress or discipline management or—
EB: Well, we talk about discipline, I guess, in all the classes. I have a graduate assistant who
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supervises the student teachers who's taught twenty-some years, and I asked her to do the
discipline part of the methods course because she's been at it recently. It's been four or five
years since I've taught a high school class, and then I didn't teach it every day, for a year. I
just taught the classes for two weeks. But—and then they get help from their cooperating
teachers when they go out. And in psych [ology], they talk about discipline, or classroom
management as they like to call it.
LD: I know, as I recall it, the ed[ucation] psych class I took tended to talk a lot about reward
systems, but they tended to be somewhat more applicable to younger children. And I think
it's when you get into the high school that it becomes difficult because they're very
sophisticated about various, you know, reward systems.
EB: Yeah. [Dr.] Dave Strahan [curriculum and instruction faculty] teaches a lot of our secondary
ed psych, and he has a high school background, so he's not so bent toward elementary as
some of our people have been. And, in the past, some of our people had the idea that if you
do everything right, they're going to behave, and that's simply not true.
LD: Well, sometimes what they imply is that if you're interesting enough and entertaining
enough that they will pay attention. And so if you do have a discipline problem, that tends to
make you feel very inadequate. It's because you're not interesting. And I do believe that
bored students do get into mischief, but—
EB: Well, I agree with you.
LD: And I also think that preparation, advanced preparation, has a lot to do with effective
classroom management. But I think there's a lot of pressure on teachers to be entertaining. I
find that somewhat unrealistic and a very big order.
EB: Well, I think you can be very entertaining and have students who don't learn anything.
LD: What about the emphasis that we're seeing now on making teachers accountable for what
their students learn?
EB: That worries me a great deal. I have a friend who has taught twenty-four years, and I know
she's an excellent teacher because I've had student teachers with her, and I've seen how they
grow. I've seen her—helped by her. And every time we talk about school this year, she
complains she has a tenth grade basic class—or she has more than one, but she has one in
particular—that the students are very uncooperative. And she talks about what she can do
when she's had her thirty years in because of that. But last year, she had twelfth grade basic,
and she likes them because they didn't have to be at school. They wanted to graduate, and so
they worked.
LD: But tenth graders are still young enough that they're in school mandatorily?
EB: Uh, huh.
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LD: Another thing that bothers me—concerns me—is to see so many good teachers leaving the
classroom to go into administration, and some of them come here and teach. I can see why
one would pursue that direction in one's career, particularly when the monetary rewards are
so much greater, but I think that there’s— it's unfortunate that people sort of think if you're
really good that you'll probably be moving on. I mean, it's true. I think—when you get a
good principal—we had a Shirley Morrison [2008 EdD] was the principal at Lindley, which
is our elementary school for the last four or five years, which is not a short amount of time
to be at a school, by any means, but she was really a very, very effective principal. Now
she's doing administrative business downtown.
EB: Well, that's true of Karen Gerringer [1972 BS, 1979 Med, 1986 EdD] who was at Bessemer
[Elementary]. And she's downtown.
LD: I mean—I have real doubts about whether these people are—their potential is really being
adequately utilized in downtown positions, but—
EB: Another thing that bothers me about current education: the state is mandating end of the
year testing, and so teachers are teaching for the multiple choice that their kids are going to
have to take at the end of the year. We've discussed this in the department, and it seems it's
more true right now in social studies because they have more end of the year testing. And so
they don't test for concepts. They test for facts, and so the teachers feel compelled to teach
the facts. Now in English it's a little different in that, say for short stories, you're supposed to
be able to talk about tone and setting. The kids [unclear] these things.
LD: Some analytical—
EB: And figures of speech. But you can teach the literature for appreciation and still teach those
things. But I don't know. I bet when they get to the American and British literature, they'll be
testing for facts.
LD: What about the multiple choice format? Don't you think that's, you know, somewhat
superficial form of testing?
EB: Oh, yes.
LD: I've been disappointed to see that multiple choice testing is used so heavily in schools and
even in academically-gifted programs, where you might think that they would range away
from it a little bit. And I think that it's—there are techniques in answering these types of
tests that the children, bright children, do learn very quickly. And I don't think that they're
really demonstrating their knowledge on multiple choice tests.
EB: But as long as a teacher can have a machine grade a multiple choice, or put the—
LD: With a machine, it's a whole lot faster to grade with, you know. UNCG has a system for
mechanical grading of multiple choice tests. What are some—has the administrative
department of this school grown a great deal? Were you training administrators in the '60s?
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That's basically unchanged?
EB: They've changed their program in some way, but I don't know what it is.
LD: Do they have more students—more people going into administration?
EB: I don't know. We never talk about it. You see, I'm in pedagogical studies and supervision,
and I know that counseling has grown a lot. And special education is growing. But I don't
know what they did in administration. Should find out.
LD: Well, what else would you like to talk about in your experience? You've been here a long
time.
EB: Yeah. Longer than anybody else. I think Jean Buchert [English professor] came a year after
I did, so after December, she will have been here longer than anybody else. And then she's
retiring.
LD: In April? In May? That's what I heard. What have you found rewarding in your years
teaching here?
EB: I have enjoyed the students. I’ve enjoyed seeing them develop. Like one I saw today. First
class I saw. It was better. And today, she had almost complete control, and when she didn't
have control, they were arguing over a short story. And then, I keep up with some of my
students. I get to see, like, Karen Gerringer, whom I taught, now downtown in the office.
When I taught her, she was such a shy little person. I would never have dreamed she'd be a
school principal. And I think—even though I don't think—I don't like UNCG as much as I
used to, I still think it's a pretty nice place to work.
LD: But what are the things that you don't like as well?
EB: Well, we talked about the size.
LD: Just impersonal quality.
EB: And we don't feel that we're rewarded for good teaching. I mean, I don't think anybody
wants to tolerate bad teaching by any means, but I don't feel as valued now as I did earlier
because I don't do quantitative research, and I don't get grants. And I sometimes think there
are too many grants. I read about a woman who got two hundred and twenty thousand
dollars to study blue butterflies in South America. And I can't believe that blue butterflies in
South America are worth two hundred and twenty thousand dollars. And even if that's not
federal money, whoever gave it to her took it off as a tax deduction.
LD: Well, I think I agree with you about that. What do you see as the connection between
research and teaching?
EB: Well, I think a lot of people do research which makes them better teachers, and I think there
15
are other people who do research because they have particular interests. And sometimes
people find problems that need solutions, and they do research to help find solutions.
Incidentally, Eastern Guilford [High School] needs a Latin teacher. I'm not sure if you know
about it.
LD: Thank you. I'll tuck that away for future reference.
EB: Jane [?] has one Latin student teacher. We'll have to find out when she's graduating.
LD: Latin has been, actually, somewhat easier to get a job in the last four or five years. There's
been a lot of—all the county schools have opened up and are providing Latin on, you know,
on not sharing teachers quite so much, having teachers in house, and they are beginning to
fill the middle schools, so it's really blossomed.
EB: Yeah, I enjoyed studying Latin. And I can still—I mean, it helps so much with vocabulary.
LD: Did you take Latin in high school or in college?
EB: In high school. Went through Virgil. Now I might refresh my memory when I retire.
LD: That's a good idea. Come over and take—you can come over and take a refresher course.
EB: I'm going to take Southern writers first.
LD: Oh. Who's teaching it?
EB: [Dr. Robert] Bob Stephens [English professor]. Of course, I hear Charles Davis [English
associate professor] is very good at it, too. And I had planned to audit Jean Buchert's
Shakespeare, but somebody else is teaching Shakespeare this spring.
LD: I have found the courses that I've taken in the last few years very enjoyable. I think it is a
real advantage to be able to—
EB: But I'm only going to audit.
LD: That's probably a good policy.
EB: And I think I'm going down to Lindley Elementary School, which is my neighborhood
school, and volunteer. But I'm going to tell them, I'm not volunteering to grade papers—that
I've graded papers for thirty eight and a half years and I—
LD: I'm sure they can find something else for you to do.
EB: Well, I thought, like, in the primary grades, they have aides to help with the children. Fourth
and fifth grade they don't have anybody. And I know there are children with reading
problems there that could use some extra help.
16
LD: Well, we'd love to have you. I'm delighted to hear that.
EB: The little girls on either side of me go to Lindley.
LD: Where do you live?
EB: I live on the dead end section of Wright Avenue that's off Northridge. You know,
Northridge goes beside the school, and, if you go up the hill, Wright Avenue is there.
LD: It doesn't connect, then, with the Wright, the earlier section?
EB: No. Where do you live?
LD: On West End, down by College Park right across from the golf course. I think that's
probably the boundary of the Lindley district on that side of Aycock.
EB: But I'm going to clean up my house first. My basement is such a mess that I'm embarrassed
when the man comes to work on the boiler.
LD: Well, I wouldn't be embarrassed these days. I want to ask you about something I remember
you saying when I took that Education 381 from you, about teachers' unions. I think you—
didn't you say you belonged once, or you—
EB: Well, I used to belong to the NEA [National Education Association].
LD: And then you quit.
EB: Well, one reason I quit, it got so expensive.
LD: How expensive is it to belong to a teachers' union?
EB: Well, the NEA doesn't like to be called a union, but it is.
LD: Well, all right. Excuse me.
EB: The AFT [American Federation of Teachers] is—
LD: They don't mind being called a union?
EB: No. They are a union. They're affiliated with AFL-CIO [federation of American labor
unions], and when they first began to grow, the NEA said, "Oh, no, no. We don't strike. We
don't do things like that." And now they do. That's not the reason I'm not in it. It's just I
didn't feel it was promoting education very much. Because I help with the SNCAE [Student-
North Carolina Association of Educators], which is the student branch. The publications
don't have as many articles on how to teach or how to be effective, really. They talk about
17
what their chapters do and how good they are. And I think, really, two hundred and fifty
dollars is a lot of money for just a few publications that they get. Some people say that the
NCAE will support you if you get in trouble, but they investigate, and sometimes support.
LD: That was actually my impression of why—what their major activity was.
EB: But you remember reading about the trouble at Page [High School, Greensboro, NC] last
year?
LD: Uh, huh.
EB: A teacher was suspended, and it's my understanding that the NCAE investigated and chose
not to support her.
LD: I wonder if that was for political reasons?
EB: I don't know. But the AFT is not as strong around here as it used—it was never strong here,
but I feel obligated to tell my classes that there's a NEA and the AFT. And one of my
students came and said that some teacher in her school wanted some information on the
AFT, and they no longer have a phone number. They used to have a phone number. So I
relied on the good old reference room in Jackson Library to get the address for her.
LD: I learned a lot about AFT when I—the first year I taught was at East Forsyth [High School,
Kernersville, NC], and the woman that I was replacing was taking a leave of absence to be a
some sort of administrator for AFT, and then she never came back. She just went into it full
time, so quite a few teachers in that particular school belong to AFT. And I didn't realize
until later that it was not a rival, really, for the NCAE in most places. I think just because she
was active in that school, she had recruited a lot of members, but I think, generally, it's
frowned upon. This is not a very receptive area to union organizing.
EB: No. It's very strong in New York.
LD: That's where it started, isn't it, with Albert Shanker [president of AFT], I think.
EB: Uh, huh. I couldn't think of his name.
LD: Yeah, I'm from New Jersey, and Albert Shanker was always big in the news. What do you
think about strikes, teacher strikes?
EB: Well, it depends on why they're striking. I think they have to have a very good reason
because students suffer from strikes. When I was teaching at Burlington, we hadn't had a
raise recently, and the students at the Canton branch of the NCAE wrote to all the other
branches, and said, "Before the legislature meets this year,"—they just met every other
year—"let's tell them that we're not going back to work if they don't vote us a raise." And so
this came up at a city-wide meeting in Burlington, and these people got up, "Oh, we can't do
that—you know, unions." And I finally got real tired of hearing this sort of sanctimonious
18
talk, so I got up and I said, "I think we need to remember when we talk about unions that the
people who pay our salaries, some of them belong to unions." And I said, "I think we
should give this serious consideration." And I sat down, and the superintendent got up, and
he says, "I'm so proud that I have a school system in which a teacher can get up and say
what she thinks, even when she's wrong." [they laugh]
LD: You're always getting yourself in trouble.
EB: Yeah. Well, to tell you what teachers are like, when they voted, there were only three of us
who voted for the Canton proposal. Yet when they elected the president of the Classroom
Teacher's Association, I was elected.
LD: Oh, yeah, well, that's typical. People want someone to say something, but they don't want to
do it themselves. I think that's typical. Have you served on some campus-wide committees?
You must have served on some. What kinds of committees have you been on?
EB: Well, let's see.
LD: Which ones have you enjoyed, if any?
EB: Well, I'm on one of the committees for the Centennial [celebration]. And I enjoy that. Just
the other day, Alan Trelease [history professor] brought his copy for the pictorial history of
the university, and I enjoyed going through that and making a few suggestions. Probably the
worst I've ever been on was the commencement [committee], not commencement—
[End Tape 1, Side A—Begin Tape 1, Side B]
LD: Tell me again why curriculum [committee] was so bad. Arguments?
EB: No. Bringing in all these courses—that we had to decide whether or not we were going
build these courses. And back then—it's easier. I think it's easier now. People come in—they
have to come and present their courses. And it met on the second and fourth Friday
afternoon and usually lasted two hours to discuss these courses. And some people are such
nitpickers.
LD: On what basis were these courses being evaluated?
EB: Well, on whether they were needed—whether they crossed over some other subject.
LD: Is that always done when a new course is suggested?
EB: Well, the people don't have to present them now. But when we have a new course in our
department, it has to go to the School of Education. From the School of Education it goes to
the curriculum committee. And I think, in your department, if you have a new course, it
19
goes to the College of Arts and Sciences, and then it goes to the curriculum committee. But
the thing that was—I said I enjoy promotion and tenure [committee] the most because you
learn so much, and you felt you were doing something important. But it's frustrating for the
committee to recommend somebody for promotion and for the chancellor to turn it down.
And he never has to say why he did it.
LD: How often does that happen?
EB: Well, the one I remember in particular, was—oh, the Robbins, Louise Robbins
{anthropology professor]. We recommended her for full professor, and he turned her down
because her book hadn't been published. He did explain that. And she was already dying of
cancer. But fortunately she lived long enough to see her book published and get promoted.
But more often than not, he goes along with the decision. But that was the one that bothered
me most.
LD: And what other committees did you say you were on?
EB: Well, I can't remember. I've been on several. The one I'm on now is due process. And we
had only one meeting. And that was when a person was appealing an administrative
decision and decided not to pursue it, I guess, because we haven't had it again.
LD: Does it have to do with due process with regard to students or faculty?
EB: Faculty.
LD: Faculty. Do you find that the UNCG faculty is an agreeable group to confer with?
EB: Usually.
LD: Do people behave themselves in mature academic fashion?
EB: I remember there were a couple once—who didn't—and they were talking about limiting
enrollment because we didn't have dormitory space. And one of them got up and made this
speech about we ought to pitch tents down at Peabody Park, so we could take in anybody
who wants to go to school. And they were always trying to upset things. But most people
don't. Let's see. It's funny how when you go to a meeting, like a School of Education
meeting, you say, "I know that these two people are going to say something—regardless of
what the topic is, they’re going to say something." And I don't go to the university
committee—the university whole meetings any more, but used to be you could always count
on certain people having something to say. But generally people are reasonable.
LD: Somebody told me that the all-university meetings used to be very well attended, and they're
not—no one ever goes anymore.
EB: I haven't been in several years. I was on the—I represented the School of Education on that
at one time.
20
LD: What kind of—I don't know how to put this. What kind of power does the faculty have here
at UNCG? How much does it contribute to the running of the University? Where is the real
power?
EB: The chancellor.
LD: Not the legislature?
EB: You mean Raleigh? Well, the Board of Trustees and the Board of Governors, and the
legislature has something to say, too, but it's—
LD: It's the chancellor?
EB: Uh, huh.
LD: And his rather large administration?
EB: Uh, huh.
LD: Well, maybe the faculty feel like they've—certainly in the last thirty years that has changed.
The faculty must have had more direct input into policy thirty years ago.
EB: For the six years that I was not here, Edward Kidder Graham, [Jr.] was the chancellor. And
before he came, the faculty had more power, and there was a real power struggle for those
six years.
LD: Between the faculty and Graham?
EB: And the administration. Between Graham—now, this building is not named for that
chancellor. This is Frank Porter Graham, his uncle. And people talked about it for years after
I came here, and, in fact, they were always trying to get rid of him. And they finally got a
little scandal that was bad enough that—
LD: But the real issue was wrenching power away from the faculty. Do you think he was sent
here to do that?
EB: I wouldn't know that.
LD: With the blessing of, you know, the powers in Chapel Hill, perhaps?
EB: Perhaps.
LD: Did that bitterness last a long time?
EB: Uh, huh.
21
LD: It must have because I've heard people talk about it who came here years after he left. When
was he—
EB: He was here from '50 to '56.
LD: '56. Did it split the campus?
EB: I don't think so. I don't think—I think the majority of the people were opposed to him.
LD: What position did Mereb Mossman take? She must have been somewhat in the middle. Did
she become dean under Graham, or was she dean before he came?
EB: No. I don't know. She was on the faculty when I was a student. I don't know when she
became dean.
LD: I think she was dean by the time he left. She was already the dean.
EB: She was my anthropology teacher.
LD: What was her specific field of interest in anthropology?
EB: I don't remember. This was just general anthropology. We were required to take, I think,
sociology one semester and anthropology the next.
LD: People probably didn't have specialties quite as much in those—specific specialties, as they
do now. Do you remember her vividly as a dean and vice chancellor?
EB: Well, there was some opposition to her too. I remember when they were thinking about
[naming] this building Mossman, a couple of people called me up and said, "Let's don't let
them name that building for her. She doesn't support the women on this campus."
LD: How ironic. Since she has such a reputation for being a powerful administrator. In what
ways did she not support women?
EB: I think in hiring policies.
LD: Did she deliberately replace women with men?
EB: Uh, huh. Now that's a rumor. I don't know that at all.
LD: But that's not something that you would, from experience, look around and say—
EB: No, I wouldn’t know that. I know one of the ones who was most adamant was Amy Charles
[professor of English literature].
LD: I did not know Amy Charles, but—
22
EB: Well, she was a very strong character.
LD: Now that I did know. [they laugh]
EB: She's a strange person. She seemed so hard and yet do such kind things.
LD: Are you talking about Mereb Mossman?
EB: No. Amy.
LD: Amy Charles. Because the same thing I've heard said of Mereb Mossman—that she was
very gracious in private, but that she was very iron fisted in campus politics. Was Amy
Charles ever the head of the English department?
EB: No. I think they've probably always been men.
LD: Wasn't Jane Summerell the—? Never?
EB: I don't think so.
LD: But many departments were chaired by women.
EB: Oh, yes. But I don't think English.
LD: But not English. At least, not in your recollection.
EB: Jane didn't have a doctorate. I think they wouldn't let her chair.
LD: I have heard her name mentioned before, but I don't remember exactly in what connection.
EB: Let's see. She had some position with the faculty. We called it the faculty assembly when
the whole faculty meets. It's faculty assembly when [unclear]. I think she was chairman of
that. Are you interviewing—you're going to interview Jean Buchert, or have?
LD: I believe she has been. She was not on my list, but I believe she has been. I'm sure she has
been.
EB: She would know more about power plays than I would because I'm not inclined to be
involved in things like that.
LD: No, I'm sure she's been interviewed. Is there anything else you'd like to add for the record?
EB: I can't think of anything.
LD: To put down for posterity?
23
EB: I can't think of anything.
LD: Well, I've enjoyed the interview.
EB: Well, I've enjoyed being interviewed. I didn't know quite what to expect.
[End of Interview]