Oral history interview with Grace Parker Boutwell, 1990 [text/print transcript]

              1
UNCG CENTENNIAL ORAL HISTORY PROJECT COLLECTION
INTERVIEWEE: Grace Parker Boutwell
INTERVIER: Missy Foy
DATE: April 9, 1990
[Begin Side A]
MF: I guess if you want to start by telling, like, when you were at Woman’s College [of the
University of North Carolina] and just some general stuff about your education, what you
did after Woman’s College.
GB: Well, I was a freshman at Woman’s College in 1934, and at that point in time I had only
had eleven grades of high school. There was a little empty space on some of things I
should have known.
MF: So, was that like the high school only went to eleventh grade where you were going?
GB: Yes, went to eleventh grade. A lot of the schools in North Carolina at that—
MF: Right. A few, I think, at that time went to twelfth.
GB: They did. Durham did and Charlotte.
MF: Durham High went to twelfth.
GB: Yeah, they did, and Charlotte and—
MF: But most of them only went to eleventh.
GB: So, freshman all-girls campus is a lot different? And freshman dorms and classes
certainly were much smaller than they are now. Freshman Week with teas and tea parties
and [unclear].
MF: Sort of like an orientation type thing?
GB: Yes.
MF: Oh, okay. And that was—it was called Freshman Week?
2
GB: Freshman Week. [long pause] One of the things I remember so well ’cause I had not had
any theme writing to do in high school, if you can imagine. Never an essay; never a
source theme.
MF: Actually, I can’t imagine that.
GB: I know it. Nobody could. And we had in English—we had to write an autobiography and
a source theme. And that was my agenda for my freshman year. Finally after writing two
or three times—
MF: —you got it.
GB: I got it. [laughter] But I was just kind of—I guess anybody who was accepted at the state
colleges in those days had a few placement things [unclear]. But my degree was a BS
[bachelor of science] in secretarial administration.
MF: Okay. And that was different from that one-year commercial?
GB: Yeah. They had one-year commercial that year, and I think later on they had two-year
commercial. But your first two years were—you could choose whatever—really, most
subjects that you wanted. You had to get French in there—your, I mean your foreign
language—and your science course. And then, because I didn’t try to get a teaching
certificate, I had a lot of electives which—I got some art classes and English courses.
And they you had a lot of economics and business law and business machines, which I’m
sure they’re completely passé today. And shorthand, typing (just to pass) and business
news. A lot of things I’m sure that are outdated now. No computers, of course; none of
any of those things.
MF: It still sounds pretty vigorous though.
GB: Well, it was. I enjoyed it. I really enjoyed the things like business law and economics and
that kind of thing. And then socially, you know, there were—the school had dances. All
the classes had dances, and they had parties down in the old Y[WCA] Hut, which is long
gone. It had the societies, which are long gone too. But, really, it was pretty fun.
MF: What was it like to be on an all-girl campus?
GB: It was really a relief in some ways. You didn’t have to dress for the guys. And weekends
were—was dress-up time and dates and all. There were chaperones. If—you’ve never
seen a rule book from those days, have you?
MF: Yeah, a lot of rules, yeah.
GB: I’d be glad to share. I happen to have it still.
MF: Oh, you have a rule book?
3
GB: Yes.
MF: Oh, neat. Yeah, I’d like to see that.
GB: I might even give it to you.
MF: Okay, all right. What kind of rules?
GB: You won’t believe it. We didn’t leave campus without signing out to where you were
going, daytime, nighttime. 10:30 [pm] the doors locked on the weekends. I mean on
week—during the week—believe 11:00 [pm] on Saturdays. And I’m sure you didn’t—
y’all didn’t have to live with campus checks, when they could check on everybody on
campus?
MF: Oh, actually, no.
GB: Physically checking. If you were signed out to town or to a movie or wherever you
commit to where you would be, that was on paper. If you weren’t in the library or in your
room or somebody else’s room, maybe down at the drugstore at the corner, I think you
were in trouble.
MF: Oh, so they would pick a couple names and—
GB: Yeah. There was judicial board, which I don’t know if they still have, but that was the
college—that was the student judicial board. And somebody would check all the dorms,
each dorm [unclear] a checked—your name checked off, and you—if you weren’t found,
you were in trouble.
MF: And you had to account for where you’d been? Okay, that’s kind of strict. What about
dorm life in particular?
RB: Hi, I’m Rufus Boutwell, How are you?
MF: Hi. Missy Foy, okay.
RB: I’ll be back. Anything you need downtown?
GB: Have a good time. You weren’t supposed to catch rides downtown [unclear]. You knew
that.
MF: Right. And, if you got caught catching a ride back, weren’t you in trouble?
GB: You were in trouble. One or two girls in our class caught a ride and the train hit them,
and one of them was killed.
MF: Oh, my.
4
GB: Most times one didn’t get caught if—you know.
MF: They were in an accident?
GB: Yes.
MF: Well, I’m trying to think where they would be crossing the tracks.
GB: It was down—I’ve forgotten where that track was. It was down near GC, Greensboro
College.
MF: Somewhere around Market [Street], I would imagine. Yeah, I think the tracks cross
Market and Friendly [Avenue]. And they got hit by a—the train?
GB: Yes.
MF: Do you remember who they were?
GB: Yeah, I do. Well, I think I can tell you. Let’s see. They were from Lumberton [North
Carolina], and one of the girls was—I can’t remember if that was who was killed—
McClain. The last name of the one that was riding was McClain. It escapes me the name
of the girl who was killed. [long pause] Anyway, there were ways that you didn’t—it
didn’t really seem like much fun to break the rules. I mean, you can imagine what it does
to the rest of the campus when something like that happens.
MF: Oh yeah, I bet. What—how did the rest of the campus react to that?
GB: Well, pretty glum, and I’m sure none of us caught rides for at least a month.
MF: Yeah, I’m sure. Wow, I didn’t realize that. Nobody ever mentioned that to me.
GB: I think that might have been our sophomore so that might have been ’35, ’36. I hadn’t
thought about that, but there were buses near campus, and it really wasn’t that far to
walk. And really, see none of us had any money in those years.
MF: Right, because of the Depression [economic depression preceding decade before World
War II]?
GB: And so, you could catch the bus. I think that was probably a nickel. It wasn’t any
[unclear].
MF: Yeah. What did most of the girls go downtown for?
GB: Well, to the movie. Or there were certain days you could bowl—on Thursdays for a
nickel a game. Or you might just decide you wanted to go down and get [unclear].
5
MF: Yeah, just to walk around. Because—see now, around the campus where the students go
is either to Spring Garden Street or Tate Street, and very few people will go downtown.
GB: No? Well, there was—there really were—down at the corner there—of course, was the
bakery and the drugstore, and that was about it in the way of shops or anything. And this
was before the era of shopping malls or any—well, just everything. Everything to look at
was downtown.
MF: It was all located down there. I guess the people over at Greensboro College didn’t have
as far to walk.
GB: That’s right. They didn’t have as far to walk.
MF: Did many of the girls from Woman’s College have anything to do with the people over at
Greensboro College?
GB: If you knew—personally, if you knew them. I expect that Greensboro College was really
more all North Carolina girls. At least it was at that day. WC [Woman’s College] had lots
of girls from out of state. [unclear] the out of state students.
MF: Did it seem like most of the out-of-state girls came from—?
GB: New Jersey, Connecticut. Mostly, I think, New Jersey. New Jersey, I think, didn’t have
girls’ schools—didn’t at that time.
MF: Well, they’re very expensive. I know still that’s a trend at a lot of North Carolina schools
is there’s a large population of New Jersey students. To back up just a little bit, we’d
started talking about dorm life.
GB: Oh, yeah. Well, freshman year you stayed in your rooms till 10:30 [pm]—7:30 [pm] to
10:30 [pm].
MF: Study? Was that like a study hall?
GB: Yes. And quiet hour. I mean you could sort of make noise, mind you. 10:30 [pm] to 11
[pm]—but then lights were out. That was all our freshman year. And it was fair. You
know, it was really pretty nice. I mean—I don’t know—I think maybe freshmen really
need that much discipline. I certainly did. I had good roommates and good friends. And
who should—one of the things you never—people weren’t having parties that much—
certainly weren’t having parties of our own then. [laughter]. So there wasn’t any—I
mean, one thing I see about it—I think you pretty—it was a pretty good way to learn
about all the different kinds of females in the world because no—everybody’s pretty
natural when there’s no males around.
MF: Oh yeah, yeah. I see what you mean.
6
GB: Then you could catch the other side when the fellas [sic] would come on the weekend.
You always got some out to get somebody else’s guy, so people really haven’t changed
much. But I think it did kind of—I felt like after I finished I really had had an education
on females too.
MF: So not just an academic education but a social one too?
GB: And then, I think you learned a lot about different parts of North Carolina. I did about
people and names and areas and where those places in the state were.
MF: And where were you from when you—?
GB: My home was in Raeford, which was south—down below Fayetteville [North Carolina],
about ninety miles from here. Are you from North Carolina?
MF: Well, I guess I sort of am now, but actually I’m from New Jersey.
GB: [laughs] Speaking of New Jersey.
MF: I just thought of that when I said that. [laughs]
GB: I was trying to get you—pick up your accent, but you—.
MF: I’ve got quite a southern accent.
GB: Yeah, you have.
MF: Whenever I go back up North, my family lets me know that.
GB: I know they would. They surely would.
MF: But people who are natives of the South and North Carolina tell me I don’t sound like
I’m from the South.
GB: Well, I think you do. My accent—my husband was in the [United States] Air Force, and
we moved all over. So I can’t clearly say that anybody’s from anywhere ’cause [unclear].
MF: Right, yeah.
GB: Accents, not so much.
MF: With the time you were at Woman’s College from ’34 to ’38, with the Depression going
on and all, what were some of the visible things on campus that sort of reminded
everybody about the Depression?
GB: I’m not sure that there was anything that was particularly noticeable to us as students.
One thing I think most of us were very careful about was the cost of books and lab fees
7
and all those things that we had in addition. And one of the kind of wonderful things
about [unclear] about it was nobody really had any more money than the others. And you
didn’t have to compete. It isn’t that you didn’t have whatever clothes you needed or food
of any of those things, but you didn’t feel—if you didn’t have any money to go to the
show, there was nothing bad about saying—there was nothing different about saying,
“Well, I can’t afford it, don’t have it,” you know. Sometimes you wouldn’t have any
money in your pockets. It was great fun if you had enough for something at the bakery.
You know, it really made life quite simple.
MF: Yeah, less class struggle. So you feel like the women on the campus there were a little bit
isolated from the effects of the Depression?
GB: No, I think maybe the women on campus were a little isolated from the rest of the world,
you know. I’m not—
MF: Just in general?
GB: Yeah, in general. I’m not—I think there’s some things about it that isn’t—maybe wasn’t
all good, but in other ways it certainly gave us time to grow up with some restrictions.
And it didn’t mean that when you had the opportunity you wanted to go crazy—you
know, wild or—you don’t see any of that change with people out—when they were out
of—after they graduated.
MF: Yeah. During the time you were at Woman’s College, I’m not sure—were there a couple
of dorms that were closed down because some people couldn’t afford to go to school?
GB: I think maybe at that time all the dorms were still open to students. Three freshman
dorms, Spencer and Guilford and Mary Foust and Cotten, Shaw—I can’t—I just think
they were all open.
MF: Okay. Was—I think Jamison [Residence Hall] was the one that was that one.
GB: That was Spencer, yes.
MF: Jamison on the quad was another?
GB: Jamison. No, that old—the old building—the one that’s—. Miss [Minnie Lou] Jamison
[joined the Domestic Science Department and remained with the institution in various
capacities for more than fifty years] was the counselor in Spencer.
MF: Right, okay. So Jamison was built later?
GB: Jamison’s a new building.
MF: Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. It was built after—.
8
GB: Well, the oldest dorm is the one I’m calling Spencer.
MF: Yeah.
GB: Right, yeah. Jamison were the—there was Jamison, Mary Foust, New Guilford. I’ve got a
map; I’ll show you.
MF: Okay. I’m just trying to get a picture of which dorms were there.
GB: And Kirkland. That’s one that’s maybe not there. It’s right where the—where the dining
room [unclear].
MF: I think it’s called South Spencer now.
GB: Maybe.
MF: Was it attached to Spencer, sort of?
GB: At the back.
MF: Yeah, okay. I think that’s South Spencer, and then Spencer is North Spencer, or vice
versa.
GB: And there was Cotten and Bailey. No, let me think—Women’s. There was Bailey and the
other two—that other one out by the tennis court and Shaw.
MF: Yeah, okay. I know which ones you’re talking about, the ones on the quad there.
GB: So I had one child that was graduated over, and one went two years. But I think those
people think that we don’t have copy problems. They should go in the—
MF: In the archives?
GB: Somewhere, yes.
MF: Okay, I could put these in the archives under your name.
GB: Right. And this came out later. This is a map of the campus. I think it was on the back of
an Alumni [News] journal.
MF: Oh, right. This was when—
GB: And that’s early ones.
MF: —Walker [Avenue] still went through campus.
GB: But that—I just thought that those were things that I’m really finished with.
9
MF: Yeah. I’ve never seen this particular map. I remember people telling me when Walker
went through the campus.
GB: Yeah.
MF: Okay. Here we go on with that. Shaw—let’s see, this one’s Cotten. Bailey west, east,
okay.
GB: And see, these—this was, that was—and this is—. What’s that? Kirkland? This was it,
you know.
MF: What’s this little note over here that says, “Cats Beware?”
GB: Must’ve been the lad—some of that I didn’t catch. Anyway, I thought that’s a kind of fun
map. But I—
MF: Yeah, that’s a neat thing. Yeah. WCUNC. So it was already called Woman’s College of
the University of North Carolina?
GB: Yeah. And Dr. [Walter Clinton] Jackson [faculty, third chancellor of the college] lived on
campus at that point.
MF: Oh, yeah. Tell me about Dr. Jackson. I’ve got little bits and pieces about him. Mostly
people say, well—
GB: He’s got a daughter living in Greensboro.
MF: Right, and—
GB: He was a nice, gentle, quiet man. And his daughter—my roommate in college was an art
major, his daughter, Lil [Lilian Jackson, class of 1938]. And Lily was somebody who was
supposed to [unclear]. I never had Dr. Jackson for a teacher, and I think that people who
had him for a professor really, really liked him. He was wonderful. I think that the family
—this is what I picked up—I think they were very disappointed that he wasn’t made
chancellor of the whole university system at that point—I think Frank Graham [also
United States senator] was the one.
MF: Yeah, Frank Porter Graham.
GB: Yes. And Lil—in fact we went back—we had our problems. [unclear] ’88. And Lil—then
I think she—we had my Lil, my roommate, and I were all roommates, and I had gotten
back over there at one time, I think. She never had anything to do with the college for
years. We did get Lil to come to the reunion. And all of our class members really praised
Dr. Jackson. Having just seen him as her father in the—I mean, in the home—I didn’t
know that much about him, but I think he was really a very special person from all the
things that everybody else said about him and real [unclear]. But there was some, you
10
know, as to some little problem there between the way the family felt about the campus
when he left.
MF: Because he was only chancellor the Woman’s College campus and never made like
president of the university?
GB: At that time, it was [North Carolina] State [College], [University of North Carolina at]
Chapel Hill and in Greensboro, those three. And I think maybe—
MF: So a little bit of animosity there?
GB: Yes, Maybe not from him, but from his—
MF: From his family?
GB: Yes.
MF: I know Frank Porter Graham’s nephew or something [who] eventually became chancellor
of Woman’s College—Ed[ward Kidder] Graham [Jr.]. Apparently, he was quite a
character.
GB: [unclear] We were doctors when they [unclear], I think.
MF: Right, right, yeah. What do you know about Miss Elliott—Harriet Elliott [history and
political science professor, dean of women]?
GB: She taught. I had political science class under her, and she was a wonderful—alive,
interesting person, and she’d come in here doing some of this. I guess it would be the
Democratic Convention since she’d told us about it. She was really neat as was Dr.
[Louise Brevard] Alexander [taught from 1936-57, Greensboro’s first female attorney]
[unclear].
MF: And, I think—was Katherine Taylor [class of 1928, dean of women, dean of students,
dean of students, director of Elliott Hall] one of the counselors at that time?
GB: Yes. She was counselor in a dorm. And she was a lovely, unassuming—really a neat
person. I did have—was also teaching French at that time.
MF: Yeah, I talked to a lot of people who knew her as a counselor who didn’t know her as a
teacher.
GB: Right [unclear].
MF: And I think it was—I’m trying—I’ve been trying to figure out—I’ve gotten a couple of
people who remember a little bit vaguely about this. Either in ’38 or ’39 there was some
incident where the girls demanded to be allowed to smoke?
11
GB: Well, I’m not sure it wasn’t before that. Well, when I was there, students could smoke in
their rooms. You’d find it in those little books. One could smoke in one’s room, but one
could not smoke in restrooms or in a public place.
MF: Not around on campus?
GB: I think maybe one could smoke in the drugstore then. I got the—I should’ve looked at
that. The main thing I remember is one could smoke in one’s room.
MF: Okay. You could in your own room?
GB: Yes, I think they were lifted up the rules, but I don’t remember that much about it.
MF: I just—I met somebody who told me that it was some time in the late ’30s that some of
the girls got together, and they were going to go light their cigarettes up in Aycock
Auditorium, demanding to be allowed to smoke. And I’ve been trying to figure out what
year that was.
GB: It was—it probably was ’39, ’40.
MF: Okay.
GB: ’Cause I’m exactly not sure about the right—
MF: Yeah, right, because somebody—one person thought it was the winter of ’38, and
someone else thought it was the winter of ’39. And I’ve been trying to figure out what
year that was.
GB: I—it was—I certainly don’t—I remember nothing about it—we all had the privilege of
smoking in our rooms—all, not everybody. But that was your wild thing.
MF: Yeah. So a lot of the girls smoked in their rooms, yeah. Something they could do.
GB: If you could afford cigarettes. [laughter]
MF: What about the classes? We talked a little bit briefly about that. What about the classes
and the faculty and all?
GB: Well, there’s one thing I’d like to say in speaking about English. Dr. [James W.] Painter
[associate professor of English] was my English teacher, and I’ll never forget what he
said to me when he read my autobiography. He said, “I don’t smell anything cooking on
the stove. I don’t even know what was going on in your house.” And he was trying to
catch us—jump up and down about all these things, you know. And he brought on some
expert teachers. I started out with [unclear]. And I can’t remember—think I had him two
years. But by the end of that time, the best thing was, whatever else I wanted to write, I
12
was getting “Bs.” And he really worked with you till you had some respect for yourself
and what you could do. I think I’ve got the excellent [unclear]. Dr. Elliott was and Dr.
Alexander and the other person was Dr. [Albert] Keister, who taught economics. I don’t
care much for science, really. And business law I enjoyed. We had to brief all the cases,
but I’ve purposely forgotten the professor’s name because he talked and spit all during
the class. Oh, wasn’t that terrible? I can see him, but I can’t remember his name.
MF: What did the relationship between students and faculty seem to be like?
GB: I think it was—my feeling is that it was really kind of personal. That you could, like, they
knew who you were and you knew who they were and you did have a faculty advisor.
And a lot of those—the freshman/sophomore years—they would bring—they would
invite you over to their homes. I mean, do they do that kind of thing now?
MF: I think it depends on the—
GB: On the—but it was pretty—I think it was pretty close, you know. Some of the professors
didn’t much want to deal with you, you know. They were—they weren’t really the best.
MF: Then you had some that were—?
GB: I think, all in all, they were very good.
MF: What do you feel—like do you feel like there was anything special or anything in
particular that the women at WC got out of being at a women’s college—something that
maybe they wouldn’t have gotten at a coeducational—?
GB: [pause] I think—one thing, and I think probably it was the influence of maybe—of Miss
Elliott or others—it never occurred to you that you had to be [unclear]—that you couldn’t
lead in whatever little group you wanted to—you know, if you so desired. I think there is
a confidence that most of us perceived that we could handle whatever problems we had,
whatever jobs we had.
MF: So you don’t feel limited because you were a woman?
GB: No. And I think I’ve—kind of seeing that among—because you weren’t competing for
males at that particular time, I think. That’s my feeling. And I really had a kind of—
several of my friends could have [unclear]. And I do think that we got an excellent
education for that day and time.
MF: Yeah. Yeah. I think around that time—but I’m not sure how accurate it is, but I’ve been
told that WC was considered one of the top three women’s institutions in the country.
And one of the thoughts that comes to mind for me now is—as a university, as a
coeducational university—while UNCG [The University of North Carolina at
Greensboro] is a well-respected school in the state, it’s—there aren’t many people in the
country who have ever heard of it. And so, what comes to mind is, “What happened?”
13
Was it the transition from a women’s institution to a coeducational, or was it the
transition from college to university? What happened to make it appear to lose something
in its stature?
GB: Well, I think that the—because I’ve had some connection—the son [David Boutwell] that
was graduated in ’76—I might know a little bit about it. And I’ve also heard from Kevin
Johnson [?] and the chief counsel [unclear] for the last few years. And I don’t think this is
actually—is any more true, less true or more true about that college than any others. I
think in the ’70s, early ’70s, and activists in the ’60s, late ’60s. I think that, not only did
the high schools kind of—all the schools I found—when they were moving around with
the integration problem. So many people were frightened to death with integration; I
mean school administrators. And I’ve also heard them say at UNCG, and I think this is
true—the administration kind of gave in to the will of the students, which never should
have happened. They started throwing in classes that were not really important and
[unclear] for the university to be teaching. And I think they lowered their standard in
some ways just to let everybody come that wanted. And people became undisciplined as
far as studying. It didn’t start in colleges all the way. It started in high schools and all the
way down with it.
MF: So it became sort of—less elite, kind of?
GB: Less expected of the student than had been previously.
MF: And less control on the part of the administration?
GB: Less control.
MF: So you feel that it had something to do with all the turmoil of the ’60s?
GB: Yes, and other things.
MF: And, well, I guess, yeah, other things too.
GB: I think—I’m sure that a great many—that all colleges did not bow to the demands. But I
suppose the whole university system, the state schools. I lived in Ohio at that particular
time, with all the turmoil they had in Ohio.
MF: Yeah, that’s quite a bit.
GB: I lived in Virginia when the schools were integrated, and a lot of the white administrators
did not know how to [unclear] blacks. They didn’t know them. They were fighting, and
teachers were too, which was so foolish, you know.
MF: And so, being scared and frightened, they treated them more as a problem than as other
students?
14
GB: That might be a weird statement. I really had never voiced that too much, but I’ve
thought about it because that’s so—. And I did hear ’em [sic] say it at Woman’s College
in Greensboro in the last two or three years—stand up and say that this happened. And
they didn’t say it like that, but they said that we did give in to the students in some of the
departments—the demands for classes—and we’re getting that straightened out. And they
really shouldn’t have.
MF: Students shouldn’t have controlled the curriculum then?
GB: Yes. Parietal rules.
MF: Yeah, ’cause a lot of the so-called parietal rules went out the window in the late ’60s and
early ’70s at UNCG. What about—one topic that I’ve forgotten to mention so far is some
of the traditions that they had on campus at Woman’s College.
GB: Well, they had—of course, you know we all—we each and every one went to the
auditorium for chapel, and people checked by row every—twice a week, I think.
MF: Yeah, and then some time later it changed to just once a week. I haven’t figured out
exactly when that change was.
GB: And at that point—I think that was one of the last years—this was one of the last years
they had the May Day exercises [clock chimes, unclear]. And last dances that we had
cards to fill in for our dances.
MF: Cards—I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
GB: Well, you didn’t—see there were going to be—there was a dance, and there would be ten
pieces or twelve pieces, and you went around to your friends and wrote their names and
their dates’ names and [unclear].
MF: So you had to already have planned out who you were going to dance with?
GB: Yes.
MF: Little structured, isn’t it? [laughter]
GB: Little structured, yeah. It didn’t always guarantee you were going to have a good partner
either.
MF: So, if you met somebody at one dance, you’d to put them on your card for the next one?
GB: Yeah.
MF: Okay, what did—what about class jackets? Did you have class jackets?
15
GB: There were such things. I didn’t buy one. One of my sisters who—let’s see here—they
were leather jackets [unclear].
MF: Yeah, I’ve never seen one.
GB: I wonder—I’ll look in the [unclear] for you. I think my—I know that it’s not mine. My
sister graduated two years before [Caroline Parker, class of 1936], and that leather was so
good that one of my daughters wore it as a vest and [unclear].
MF: Wow. So it lasted for a while?
GB: Yes. I know it was around here for years.
MF: What about class rings—you know, class rings?
GB: I had a class ring. We had—I don’t know whether the—somebody in my class who was
an art major had the seal on—the seal—made the plan for our class ring. And I did get
one of those. I’ve never really worn it very much, and I gave it to my son who has not
particularly worn it. I just said, “I’m not going to wear it. Keep it; that’s yours.”
MF: Yeah.
GB: It’s black with the seal on it.
MF: I know some people have told me that they’ll recognize other people’s class rings.
GB: Yes. I think the ring would—I think that before our class, if I’m not mistaken, that the
class rings used to have a set—I mean a stone in it, like if you’re green—
MF: For the color of your class?
GB: Class color. I think that’s right.
MF: Okay. I’m not sure.
GB: [unclear] The art course began while I was there—the art department as a department.
My roommate was a home ec[onomics] major, and when Mr. [Gregory] Ivy [first chair of
the art department] came. I believe that was maybe our junior year. And then that became
another department, and a number of people said they were art majors.
MF: Something new, huh?
GB: Right. So one of my classmates was an art major designed our class ring, black onyx.
And maybe they’ve stayed that way; I don’t know.
MF: I didn’t get a class ring when I was there, so I don’t know. I didn’t get one.
16
GB: What do they look like?
MF: I don’t know; it’s too much money for me.
GB: I know. Well, it wasn’t that much, but I’d never gotten a high school ring; I’d never
gotten anything.
MF: I never got a high school ring either.
GB: And I didn’t get invitations because I thought this was stupid to send them out. I couldn’t
come anyway if somebody had sent me, so I don’t have any of that. Or jackets.
MF: Yeah, I didn’t have the money when I was in school.
GB: We didn’t either.
MF: Are there any—is there anything else about Woman’s College that you want to make sure
that doesn’t get missed here?
GB: The only think I know—
[End Side A—Begin Side B]
MF: You were encouraged to go to church?
GB: Yes.
MF: Were there several churches nearby?
GB: Yeah. We could—several places you could go, and the churches in Greensboro all—I
went to Covenant Presbyterian Church, which was close by. And the churches were
really kind of a home place for you. Dr. Murphy Williams [pastor] had there been a long
time and his family would invite us all over for things at his home. And that made, kind
of made up for it being away from home.
MF: Yeah. I just remembered another thing that I wanted to ask you as far as about chapel and
some of the programs they would have for chapel. Do you recall them having about once
a year something called Sedalia Singers or something?
GB: I certainly do.
MF: Can you tell me about that?
17
GB: Well, that was—they were wonderful musicians and singers. I really couldn’t—one could
not name them. [unclear] main happening at chapel.
MF: Yeah, they—weren’t they a black group?
GB: Yeah, they’re a black group, and Sedalia College [Palmer Memorial Institute, preparatory
school for African-American students] is still out there.
MF: Okay, so what kind of music—?
GB: Gospel music.
MF: Gospel?
GB: Pretty much. Another thing is the programs—the dance groups and the speakers that used
to come were wonderful. Has anybody mentioned that to you?
MF: Yeah, some people have said that.
GB: They were.
MF: They were very, very good. Not just like—people that would come for chapel, but for
some of the programs they had.
GB: Right. I really can’t think. I don’t know if Bennett College [historically-black liberal arts
college for women] also, which was a black college, had a singing group. And I can’t—
you know, I don’t remember too much about that except the Sedalia Singers. [unclear]
MF: How did they seem to be received at—in an all-white girls’ school?
GB: Very well. In fact, I have a friend here, a black friend who went to Bennett College at the
same time—well, maybe a little behind. She has told me—her father was a musician, and
I guess she was—she said that Dr. Jackson and whoever the president was at Bennett at
that time—I have heard her mention, but I can’t [unclear] were very good friends and that
they would get together and discuss the curriculum. I’m not sure whether Bennett was a
junior college or a private college. I see the signs still when I’m in Greensboro.
MF: I’m pretty sure it’s a four-year school now, but I’m trying to think—in the late ’30s, I’m
not sure if it was or not.
GB: Maybe it might have been there in the early ’40s—she might’ve been in the ’40s. But I’m
not sure when that [unclear]. But anyway, I thought that was—I wish for the [unclear] to
know that—you know, that they were friends and acquaintances.
MF: That they could clear the hurdles?
GB: Yes.
18
MF: And have a professional relationship. Yeah, that is interesting. I want to make sure that I
don’t miss anything else that will really characterize the atmosphere of Woman’s
College. You’ll probably think of a million things tonight. That really seems to be how it
works.
GB: Not—I don’t—I can’t think of anything brilliant. I think that it was certainly a growing-up
time for me because I was barely sixteen when I got there.
MF: Oh, wow, yeah ‘cause that’s right ’cause you went up to eleventh—
GB: Yes, and I had—I started in second grade really so it was important for that—to grow up.
[End of Interview]