Oral history interview with David Boutwell, 1991 [text/print transcript]

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UNCG CENTENNIAL ORAL HISTORY PROJECT COLLECTION
INTERVIEWEE: David Boutwell
INTERVIEWER: Missy Foy
DATE: May 16, 1991
[Begin Side A]
MF: And if you could start with some general information, like where you're from and when you
went to UNCG [The University of North Carolina at Greensboro] and what your major was
and that kind of—sort of general information first.
DB: I'm now from Durham, North Carolina. At the time I went to UNCG, I was from Bidwell,
Ohio. I went to UNCG from '72 to '76 and got a BA in English.
MF: And while you were at UNCG, I mean—you know, in the early seventies it was—still had
that tradition of being a women's school and how did that seem to affect student life?
DB: It was a suitcase college. Most of the students there would pack up and go on weekends.
MF: Yeah.
DB: And the women's dorms generally invited frats from Duke [University] and [University of
North] Carolina [at Chapel Hill], [North Carolina] State [University].
MF: Yeah.
DB: Probably pretty much the same now.
MF: Yeah, for like their dances and—
DB: Yeah, yeah. The UNCG guys couldn't get in, but the guys from the other schools could. It
was okay.
MF: Were you saying earlier that you were in Residential College?
DB: Yeah, that's why I went there.
MF: Oh, okay.
DB: Yeah, I was accepted at like Duke or Wake Forest [University], but the R[esidential]
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C[ollege] was at that time brand new and [unclear]. That was neat.
MF: Yeah.
DB: I lived in a dorm that had student talent that had been in the courses. It was a revolutionary
idea.
MF: Your mother [Grace Parker Boutwell, class of 1938] had gone to Woman's College [of the
University of North Carolina]?
DB: Right, right. I heard my mother and all her sisters—there were four of them.
MF: Yeah, I've interviewed your mother.
DB: Yeah.
MF: That's not where I got your name, but—
DB: Yeah.
MF: Actually I got your name from Margaret [Cox] Griffin, class of 1977.
DB: Margaret Griffin?
MF: Yeah, because—
DB: That's Lib's [Lib Uzzell Griffin, class of 1937] daughter-in-law?
MF: Yeah.
DB: I talked to her this past weekend too.
MF: She had gone to Residential College.
DB: Yeah, that's where I know her from.
MF: Oh, okay, yeah. So what else about Residential College? I mean, it was really a unique
college experience.
DB: Yeah, it was—the students tend to have extremely left leanings politically, and I fit right in.
MF: Yeah, yeah, I think they still do, yeah.
DB: Yeah, I talked to the dorm father this past weekend at reunion, and apparently if you're not
politically correct they hound you.
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MF: Yeah.
DB: And sign nasty notes, that sort of thing.
MF: It's strange how left wing's become politically correct.
DB: Yeah, it's too bad. It's too bad.
MF: Yeah. Because now you are going to see people going the opposite way just to be different.
[laughs]
DB: [laughs]
MF: How was Residential College set up? It was still a relatively new idea—well very new.
DB: We were required to take nine hours in the RC [Residential College]. There was one three-hour
course called the core course which was taught by Dr. [Eugene] Pfaff of the history
department, and it was—I think its intent was to move understanding to the cultural
meaning of the twentieth century.
MF: Yeah.
DB: The movements, the great ideas, the movements that shaped Western civilization for all to
testify.
MF: Yeah, the gurus.
DB: Yeah, and you had your mandatory black education. You had [Dr.] Linda Bragg teaching
black literature or black studies. Everybody had to get one course in that.
MF: Oh, okay. I didn't realize that they had that course there.
DB: Oh, yeah, Linda Bragg is still associated I think, although not involved so much.
MF: Yeah. Were there any black students in RC while you were there?
DB: Oh yeah, yeah, I don't know that there were very many as a percentage, but we had a dozen
or so because of the focus on black studies. It was supposed to help to get the black students
involved.
MF: And I guess they also really could be involved on a more equal basis, I would imagine.
DB: Oh yeah, yeah, as good liberals—
MF: Yeah.
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DB: —you couldn't look down your nose at anybody.
MF: Right. I know that someone I had interviewed who was a black student in the early
seventies, I guess, she had said that rather than any really overt racism it was more
exclusion than anything else. But that, she was telling me, was sometimes the fault of the
student themselves because they wouldn't go the extra mile to get themselves involved. But
I imagine if you were living in the RC, that wasn't quite the same problem.
DB: You had a lot of black students got more involved in the RC than the college [inaudible].
But black students at UNCG then tended to socialize at [North Carolina] A[gricultural]
&T[echnical State University].
MF: Yeah.
DB: I mean you had a lot of A&T visitors. I suppose they felt more at home at A&T than
[unclear]. I don’t know.
MF: How were race relations other than at—in RC? How were race relations on the campus,
more generally? How do you remember it? There was, I think, at that time some
controversy with student government funding Neo-Black Society.
DB: There was a sit-in. I forget what it was over. And out on the steps of—the back steps of the
Foust administration building.
MF: Yeah.
DB: That was before they moved into the new one.
MF: Yeah.
DB: And I sat in. I remember a lot of RCers that did. I don’t know that it was real popular. I
think what had happened was some white people tried to join the Neo-Black Society and
they weren't allowed and, of course, that was discrimination, so the student government
said [unclear-train whistle]. You’re talking ancient history. It became a nasty business.
[unclear]. I think that's the way it went.
MF: Yeah, that sounds sort of like what I've heard, and I think then they did allow one white
student to join.
DB: I know they're still there in the same place in Elliott Hall.
MF: Yeah, that's prime space now.
DB: Yeah.
MF: They're really having to fight to keep that space now. A lot of people want it.
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DB: That’s too bad. I hope this new student activity center on the far side of the golf course will
probably offer some more club space.
MF: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure it would, yeah. I'm not exactly sure what's going on with this other
group's wanting the Neo-Black Society—some of their space—but it's something that I
heard someone mention recently that that was going on.
DB: Yeah, I had heard that from somebody—I want to say [Dr. Robert] Calhoon [history
professor] that there had been an incident in the last four or five years that almost exploded
race relations on campus. That kind of surprised me.
MF: Oh yeah, yeah. There was an incident where a black student (I may have the facts wrong on
this but I remember the gist of what happened.)—a black student was arrested by campus
police. I don't remember what for, but for some reason I think it had something to do with
an assault. I don't remember but the newspaper, the student newspaper, had started running
a little column about police report for the week or whatever, and they were listing, “A
student, 22, was arrested for such and such, blah, blah, this student, that student,” and then
they said, "A student, Joe Smith, black, 19 or whatever." And so there was a big to do
about—if you were listing all the other students, why did you not specify white for them?
Why did you specify black for this particular student? Which, if you think about it, you
would immediately say, "Yeah, why did you do that?" But when you were just reading the
people, it didn't strike me, I guess because I'm white. It didn't really strike out. It didn't
stand out to me, but it stood out very distinctly to black students on campus. And after I
heard about that incident, then I could understand what the point they were making was, but
I don't remember whatever came of it. It seems like that was about three or four years ago.
DB: There was a—one thing, I think, that Dr. Calhoon mentioned was that there was a film,
videotape on [philosophy professor] Warren Ashby [editor’s note-Residential College
subsequently named for him.] that was shown that might have popped up in there.
MF: Yeah. Yeah. But I just vaguely remember the general—yeah, the gist of that. I can't
remember exactly how long it was either. Yeah, it did create a stir.
DB: You must have been hanging around UNCG a long time.
MF: Too long, too long, yeah. [laughs] Were you very active or did you know very much about
student government?
DB: I was a town student senator after I moved out of Mary Foust [Residence Hall]—
MF: Yeah.
DB: —for a year.
MF: How much influence did student government really have at that time?
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DB: In the student body at large? Oh, almost none. They organized dances, or you know—
whatever student government did. The only thing that I ever got involved in was raising the
money for a burn center.
MF: Oh, okay.
DB: I wasn't terribly impressed with student government. After I got elected, I couldn't back out
after I saw what I was dealing with.
MF: Yeah. So what were you dealing with?
DB: With—
MF: With student government?
DB: With a bunch of preppie jerks essentially—
MF: Yeah.
DB: —playing little political games.
MF: Yeah.
DB: Mostly ego tripping. It was, you know, like high school student council.
MF: Yeah, I was in graduate student council this year. [laughs]
DB: [laughs]
MF: Not for long. I gave up so—. Was the student judicial board still very active because when
it was a women's college, for example, they pretty much decided the outcome of just about
all the little infractions and stuff like that.
DB: I never heard anything. Nothing pops to mind. I think that they may have had some input if
a student got caught cheating, but I don't think that there were too many rules other than
that. I mean, you know, there were no hours except for freshman girls.
MF: Oh yeah. [laughs] Well, I think the dorms still locked at a certain time, but you had a key.
DB: Yeah.
MF: And that's interesting because at the time the school still advertised that there were no coed
dorms, but Mary Foust was, as Residential College, was really coed.
DB: Yeah, it was coed. It was—the closest thing to it was Phillips-Hawkins [Residence Hall]
which—
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MF: Which was in the same building but—
DB: —had a common lobby.
MF: —yeah, separated by a lobby.
DB: Yeah, we had—I guess, the first floor was men and women although separated by all the
offices, and third floor there was a door they'd lock at midnight or—I guess on weekends
one o’clock [in the morning].
MF: But otherwise—like one half of the hall was—
DB: Yeah, they opened it, I guess, eight or nine o’clock in the morning. The hall was, you know,
women on one side, men on the other and then at night they'd lock the door.
MF: Yeah, I think Margaret Griffin had told me that about halfway through the first semester
they gave up on that because somebody would invariably every night open the door and set
off some fire alarms or something.
DB: Yeah, yeah, it had a fire alarm on it.
MF: And people would get tired of hearing it in the middle of the night, so they'd just leave it
open.
DB: It really didn't make much difference in the RC. I mean, if you were going from one side to
the other, you could use the gutter on the third floor outside over balcony [or] patio or just
have someone on the other side let you in.
MF: Yeah. Always a way around. In the English department, what kinds of—excuse me about
my eye, I've got something that keeps itching, so that's why I'm scratching it.
DB: That's okay.
MF: What was the English department like while you were there? What kinds of professors
stood out for you?
DB: I think my favorite courses were in the English department. [English professor] Murray
Arndt in his Greek mythology course—he'd been teaching it for twenty years now, and it
was the best course I've ever had. Steven Lowdermilk, who taught transitional grammar,
was excellent. And he’s sort of evolved in poetry. I guess he had a show at the Elliott
Center this year. He's good.
MF: Yeah.
DB: Real heavy on southern writers.
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MF: Oh yeah.
DB: You read a lot of [William] Faulkner. Basic literature-type courses.
MF: Yeah. What about some of the other departments? Because—well, getting a bachelor's in
English, of course, you had that good, general liberal arts education.
DB: I guess, math I took for the minimum. I don't know much about the math department. I took
problem stat, intro to math, that sort of thing.
MF: Yeah. Which were probably taught by graduate students.
DB: Yeah, they were. Sociology was pretty good. There was a fellow named Connor who I
believe had a commune off campus. A big white guy with silver hair and dashiki.
MF: Yeah.
DB: At least, he was sort of a louse personally, but his course was pretty good. I had him for
society of—what, sociology of deviant behavior and something else like that.
MF: Yeah, they still have that course there although, I mean, it's not taught by him. That course
is still there.
DB: Yeah, you know, French, the obligatory language courses.
MF: Oh sure. I know I'm jumping around a little bit but—well, during the time that you were on
campus, of course, Vietnam was winding down and getting to school, closing up and
everybody coming home, so I suppose, there were some Vietnam vets coming back to
school at the time you were there. Do you remember any of them being in any of your
classes?
DB: None who were actually in Vietnam. I remember sharing a house with a guy on Trogdon
Street who had been a Vietnam era vet, but he had been an ambulance driver in Germany.
MF: Oh yeah. What do you remember about—I mean, it was a pretty—I'm searching for the
right word—well, it was an era of a lot of protests and so forth, a lot of political action of
students. What do you remember about UNCG's campus?
DB: UNCG was not really politically active.
MF: Yeah.
DB: Having come off military bases all my life, I was more in tune with Vietnam before I got to
UNCG.
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MF: Yeah.
DB: After I got there—once I got there, it was just another story in the newspapers.
MF: Yeah.
DB: And, you know, it was winding down. I guess I got there in '72, and we started pulling out
in '73 though it was just sort of a general feeling of relief that it was over.
MF: Yeah. Also in '72 when you got there that was the year that a lot of the traditions that had
gone along with Woman's College sort of went out the window. They did away with like
the class officers and May day and class jackets and all this sort of—
DB: They had all this stuff before I got there?
MF: Yeah, the year before.
DB: Wow.
MF: [laughs] The class of '72 did away with it all.
DB: I didn't know that.
MF: So, it was really gone then when you got there?
DB: There was no evidence of it at all. I never—I mean class jackets, heck, that might be fun to
have.
MF: Yeah. I think they started out leather a long time ago and then they turned wool and so—
DB: I'll have to ask my mom to see hers.
MF: Yeah, I think.
DB: She's probably got one somewhere.
MF: I'm sure she does, yeah. Because when it was Woman's College everyone got their class
jacket, their class ring.
DB: Yeah, I knew a guy who had it.
MF: Boy, excellent student models here, right? What about Tate Street? I've heard a lot of
people tell me that more than the classroom that Tate Street had sort of became the focus of
their UNCG experience.
DB: It was known as Tate Ashbury [editor’s note: reference to Haight Ashbury area of San
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Francisco, California].
MF: Yeah.
DB: I worked on Tate Street for three and a half years. I cooked burgers down at a restaurant
called Friday's.
MF: Oh yeah.
DB: And that was how I paid my last three years’ tuition.
MF: Yeah. Was Friday's having bands and all coming in at that time?
DB: No, I hear it went to punk rock there in the late seventies and early eighties. We had a few
bands. As a matter of fact, I guess they started when I was there. They were more the sort of
thing that you would have heard across the street at Apple Brothers or Elise’s.
MF: Yeah.
DB: Tate Street was a cool place to hang out. You have Jokers 3 up on the corner where there's
still a club. I don't know what it's called now.
MF: The Edge, I think now.
DB: Yeah, the Edge. I guess for a while it was called Mr. Rosewater back in—
MF: Oh yeah, yeah. That was Mr. Rosewater's as well at that time.
DB: Yeah, Jokers was big for happy hour. $1.00 a pitcher time.
MF: [laughs] Yeah. Was New York Pizza there at that time?
DB: No, New York Pizza wasn't there. I'm not even sure what was in that location. Maybe a
bank—there was a bank in there. It was a Northwestern Bank.
MF: Oh yes, somebody's told me that. Yeah, that's right.
DB: Yeah, I think it was Northwestern.
MF: Yeah, come to think of it, I remember someone told me that, yeah. What kinds of things—
how would you characterize Tate Street for, say, someone who didn't know anything about
it? How would you describe it?
DB: [laughs] Tate Ashbury would be about saying it all. Although it wasn't San Francisco by
any stretch of the imagination, but it was hip. You know, you had your hippies and, of
course, your drug dealers kind of hanging out on the corner. Not everywhere, you know. It's
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a very small street, but if you were inclined in that direction, you could find what you
wanted on Tate Street.
MF: Yeah.
DB: It was a place to go to grab a burger or a beer. That's really the only place within walking
distance of campus. Anybody went there. It was the UNCG equivalent of Franklin Street
[near University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill], but much smaller.
MF: Yeah. I know that a lot of people said that—a lot of people who grew up in Greensboro and
then went to UNCG have said that Tate Street had this really infamous reputation and that
they were warned to stay away from Tate Street.
DB: Well, all the bushes that are planted there—like if the roses, were planted to keep people
from sitting there.
MF: Yeah, the thorny bushes.
DB: Yeah.
MF: As a matter of fact, just recently—just this past year they pulled those bushes out.
DB: Oh really?
MF: Yeah, or they're going to. I can't remember which but, yeah, I think they have. I think
they've pulled them up now.
DB: I liked Tate Street. It provided me with income for school. I couldn't have gone to UNCG
without working at Tate Street.
MF: [laughs] Yeah, I've heard some other people say that too. Somebody was telling me that—I
think it was in '74 maybe—that there was a black guy who hung out on Tate Street. I think
they said his name was Psyche or something like—
DB: Yeah, the name rings a bell.
MF: And that he got married on Tate Street in ’72.
DB: I wasn't invited to his wedding but, yeah, I've heard the name—Psyche.
MF: Yeah. And apparently he and this young white girl got married and instead of exchanging
rings they exchanged nose rings or something.
DB: [laughs] Sorry I missed the ceremony.
MF: Yeah, I —
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DB: It was— it's kind of funny when I was on Tate Street this past weekend, there were two—
we call them homeless people now—sitting there on the steps of the guitar shop. And as I
walked past them, I looked at them and caught eyes with one of them and I knew his name
from somewhere. He'd been there fifteen years ago and never left the street—guy named
Steve.
MF: Wow. Yeah, there are still some who've been there quite a while, yeah. They kind of hang
out. Also, somebody was telling me—and this I thought was real interesting—that if you
hung out on Tate Street that you definitely knew who the different type people were by
things like how they dressed and what they talked about and where they hung out and—
DB: [laughs] Yeah, yeah, I don't know about Tate Street doing that. I mean you could do that
just by looking at somebody on campus.
MF: Right.
DB: It was a pretty well-marked line between a rural college student and a hippie.
MF: Yeah, I'm sure. There still is that sort of uniform that people wear.
DB: Yeah.
MF: To delineate who they are, I guess. I don't know how active you've stayed with the alumni
association, but have you been aware at all of some of the controversy going on between
the alumni association and [Chancellor William] Moran?
DB: Yeah, I know they recently had their—they've become an autonomous organization that
they have to raise their own money. I've been giving money ever since I graduated. I was a
proud member of the century club.
MF: Oh, I can't remember which dollar denomination that was.
DB: [laughs] That's like a hundred bucks—not much. I was happy enough to graduate that I'll
give them that much. I sit on the Aubrey Lee Brooks scholarship committee for Durham
County, and I do a few things like that.
MF: Okay. So you did know a little bit about the controversy that was going on?
DB: Sure. I get the Alumni News.
MF: What did you think of that?
DB: I'm sorry it's happening.
MF: Yeah.
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DB: That's about all I can say. I have no control over it.
MF: Well, I've heard some people say that they are afraid the alumni association has bitten off a
little more than they can chew as far as having to raise their own money.
DB: They haven't bitten off more than they can chew, but it may prove to be like that.
MF: Yeah.
DB: I don't know how strong the organization is at each school, if people who can actually work
in Greensboro. I mean if I—I know my money will now be earmarked for specific things.
MF: Yeah, yeah, I can see that that might get complicated, but I'm not sure—only time will tell.
What do you see for the future of UNCG? There are a lot of changes going on right now—
building and Division I athletics coming up next year. What do you see for the future?
DB: I think that it will continue to grow as a state organization. They’re going to keep growing
outward, you know, block by block. I think the baseball field is going to be over
somewhere on Sterling Street where there are now houses.
MF: Yeah, I'm not sure. That sounds about right. Yeah, that sounds about right.
DB: Yeah, they've increased, I believe, in students about 50 percent since I graduated in '76.
They're just under twelve thousand now.
MF: Yeah.
DB: I think they were between eight [thousand] and nine [thousand] at that time. I'm not really
sure. That represents a growth of about 50 percent. They will continue to grow. I hope it
continues to grow. I'd hate to see it collapse.
MF: Oh sure, yeah. What about with the Division I athletics? Do you think that's a good move
or—?
DB: Not particularly good news. It may help draw students in and if it does, more power to it. I
am not real big on college athletics.
MF: Yeah.
DB: I'm a big fan but I don't think that it's a necessary or even desirable for a university
atmosphere or activity.
MF: One other thing—talking about sort of this growth and future issue with UNCG, something
that has come to mind. You said you had gone to the residential college reunion. How has
residential college changing or growing?
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DB: Number wise, it's not growing. For the past five years, I've been in touch a number of times
with Murray Arndt, who’s the head of it, his wife, Fran [English professor] and Dr.
Calhoon. Apparently the students—although on the surface, they still sort of lean towards
the left, they reflect a change in society as a whole where they are self oriented.
MF: Oh yeah.
DB: Yeah, they're not into it for giving; they're into it because it's the right thing to do. What the
dorm father told me in reference to their recycling program—everybody was all for
recycling, but nobody would try to recycle [unclear].
MF: Yeah, yeah. In graduate student council, we're having a problem with that.
DB: Oh really? [laughs]
MF: Yeah, we're trying to get organizations to sponsor one trash bin for aluminum cans, and
they would all say sure, they'd put their name on the bin, but then when you told them,
"Well, and that means you're responsible for getting that to the recycling thing once a
week," "Oh, really." [laughs]
DB: [laughs]
MF: And all of a sudden, people were withdrawing their names—so, yeah, that is kind of a—
DB: Yeah, I don't stay in touch enough with the RC [residential college] to know how it's
changed. I know what I've been told by some of the faculty. And they say that the students
are much tamer.
MF: Oh, sure.
DB: And that—which is a shame.
MF: I think that's true throughout the campus.
DB: Yeah. I mean, you can't drink beer on campus, which to me is amazing.
MF: Yeah. See I wasn't even aware of that.
DB: [laughs]
MF: [laughs] You could when I was in college.
DB: You could when I was too. We drank it—
MF: In fact you could use student money for kegs.
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DB: We drank it at the reunion, but we had to make sure we had it in unmarked cups.
MF: Yeah.
DB: You couldn't carry a can outside. And that's unusual with—the pendulum has swung
backwards.
MF: Yeah, it seems unusual for a college campus, yeah. Well, it was only '68 or '69 when they
were allowed to have beer in their rooms if they were old enough. I don't think that—well, I
guess, yeah—and then if you were twenty-one, you could have liquor in your room but I
don't know when it changed.
DB: No, we would have—
MF: Maybe it changed while I was there, and I just didn't know—I don't know.
DB: When they raised the drinking age, they probably—
MF: I don't know.
DB: —I mean three fourths of the students that could drink now can't because—
MF: Yeah. Yeah, well, yeah—the drinking age change never affected me so I can't remember
exactly when that was. Yeah, but that makes sense. That's probably—I could do some
checking. There was something else I wanted to ask you about, and now it's slipped my
mind. It was related to—I can't remember. Oh, well—one of those days.
DB: Oh well.
MF: Yeah [laughs] It couldn't be too important then. Is there anything that you can think of that's
—that—for instance, maybe I haven't asked you about or that you would particularly like to
say about UNCG and—
DB: [laughs] No, nothing. I don't have a real burning desire to say other than the one thing that I
would like to see at UNCG remain is the residential college.
MF: Yeah.
DB: That's one reason I keep giving them money is because I hate to see them kill the program
that brought me there.
MF: Sure. How did you find out about that program being there?
DB: My mother, as an alumni, probably, handed to me some material. I was pretty wild at the
time, and she figured it would appeal to me.
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MF: Yeah. And it did.
DB: It did, yeah.
MF: And it still appealed to you when you got there as well? It was what you expected?
DB: Oh yeah, I had—well, I had my disagreements with Warren Ashby, who was the head of
the program and was sort of a saint in the eyes of a lot of people. I think he was a very
innovative administrator and a very creative thinker, but he was, to me at that point, still
sort of old fashioned.
MF: Yeah.
DB: You could get away with a lot in the RC in those days because if the faculty or the house
parents turned us in, it made the RC look bad.
MF: Oh yeah, okay.
DB: So we could do things that probably other students couldn't.
MF: So then a lot of things were then handled inside residential college.
DB: Oh yeah.
MF: Okay. Do you remember any examples of things being handled inside?
DB: Marijuana was very popular. But no one was ever turned in.
MF: Oh sure.
DB: I mean, it never got any further than Dr. [Charles] Tisdale [associate professor of English]
or Dr. Ashby.
MF: Yeah.Well, I think that became par for the course for the university after a little while. It
was handled by the campus police, I know that.
DB: Or not handled by the campus police.
MF: Yeah, yeah. I guess, the more I think about it, it was probably exactly what you said
because it hurts the reputation and so it's handled inside. That's interesting, yeah. Oh, I'm
sure that residential college was full of people really into partying.
DB: Yeah, yeah, we would have small parties that the dorm parents would attend by coming to
the landing directly beneath that to see what was going on.
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MF: Oh yeah, yeah. Don't want to be responsible for seeing what you shouldn't condone, yeah.
[laughs]
DB: Yeah.
MF: Nothing wrong with that.
DB: No, it worked out well. Those people are now contributing members of society.
MF: Yeah, see they didn't all run out and join NORML [National Organization for the Reform of
Marijuana Laws].
DB: Yeah, they probably did, but that doesn't stop them from contributing.
MF: Actually, I think NORML is breaking up now.
DB: That's too bad. I used to fund those rascals.
MF: Yeah, yeah, I think I have a tee shirt somewhere.
DB: Yeah, I used to get weird looks as an [United States] Army officer wearing that shirt off
duty.
MF: Oh, I bet.
DB: You would see me go. [gestures]
MF: These days if you wore that, you would find yourself in there giving a urine test once a
week.
DB: Oh yeah, yeah. I'm still active with the reserves.
MF: Yeah.
DB: I'm heading down to Greenville tomorrow. I've got some work down there this weekend. I
don't think I would wear a NORML shirt.
MF: No. Are you in a Durham unit?
DB: I am in the 108th Division which covers North and South Carolina.
MF: Is that Army National Guard?
DB: No, it's Army Reserve. I had been in the Durham unit. And the one reason I—
MF: Is that the 3274 Durham unit? Oh, there must be two. That's the medical unit.
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DB: Yeah, there are a number of units stationed in Durham. I was with the 2nd Battalion, 4th
Brigade, 108th Division in Durham for about three years.
MF: Yeah. That's the one downtown now.
DB: It's over by Lakewood.
MF: Yeah, okay.
DB: The downtown one, Foster Street—that's the medical outfit.
MF: Yeah, that's right.
DB: The medical outfit.
MF: My husband is in the one out of Greensboro.
DB: He's a reservist?
MF: Yeah.
DB: What unit?
MF: 312 Evac[uation].
DB: Really?
MF: Yeah. He just got back from Saudi Arabia.
DB: Okay. Don't they have an ambulance outfit over in Winston? Supports—
MF: That supports them, yeah.
DB: Yeah, I know some people over there. I used to be in the motor pool in that division—in
their ambulance.
MF: Yeah, the 312 has their own medical unit.
DB: Okay, yeah—know some people down there.
MF: Yeah, they got activated before Thanksgiving and just got back a couple of weeks ago.
DB: That's too bad. Well, that's the way it goes.
MF: Yeah, my husband just added it up this morning: five months, twenty four days. [laughs]
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But who’s counting, right?
DB: If I had been there, I would have been.
MF: I say that tongue in cheek, yeah. [laughs] Is there anything you can think of that I'm
forgetting? I know I probably am, but—you know.
DB: Not knowing exactly what it is you're doing, no, I can't think of anything you're forgetting.
MF: I'm just trying to get a feel for student life and talking to people from different years and
so—it shows the change over time. You know, it compares them all. What were some of
the biggest changes you saw during the time you were there?
DB: The library. The library when I got through was under construction. When I first came to
campus, there was nothing there. You had the [Walter Clinton] Jackson Library, a little,
real-small brick building.
MF: Little dinky.
DB: And then before I left, they had all eleven floors. I think it had eleven floors.
MF: Nine.
DB: Nine.
MF: Someone jumped out the ninth floor.
DB: Oh, swell.
MF: Yeah. When I first got there.
DB: Really? Killed them, I guess.
MF: Yeah. [laughs]
DB: [laughs] Yeah, we used to climb on top of it.
MF: Oh, really?
DB: Yeah. When it was—before it was completed, you could go to the very top, climb up on the
scaffolding. It was really fun.
MF: I imagine that was an attraction, yeah.
DB: Yeah. And—oh then the steam tunnels—that was another thing we used to do.
20
MF: Now I've heard about that, yeah.
DB: You can pick them up in the [Stone] home ec building—that big building to the right of the
[Mary Petty] Science Building on College Avenue. Used to be able to enter them there and
you could—I think the only dorm you could come up in was North Spencer [Residence
Hall], and that was locked—but steam tunnels were fun.
MF: Yeah, that's the freshman girls' dorm now.
DB: Yeah, those were early Dungeons and Dragons-time [fantasy role-playing game] days.
MF: Oh yeah. That's interesting. And I guess a lot of people are—would go on different types of
journeys through the steam tunnels.
DB: Yup.
MF: I have heard about that. I think the administration figured it out, and then since made that
impossible to do.
DB: [laughs] That's too bad.
MF: Yeah, but I—when you said that I thought, “Yeah, I vaguely remember hearing something
about that.”
DB: There was a fair amount of traffic.
MF: [laughs] That's pretty interesting. Well, I thank you for your time.
DB: No problem.
MF: Okay.
[End of Interview]