Oral history interview with Harriet M. Poe, 2015 [text/print transcript]

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THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT GREENSBORO
INSTITUTIONAL MEMORY COLLECTION
INTERVIEWEE: Harriet M. Poe
INTERVIEWER: Lisa Withers
DATE: June 24, 2015
[Begin CD 1]
LW: Today is Wednesday, June 24, 2015. My name is Lisa Withers and I am in the Jackson Library at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro [Greensboro, North Carolina] with Ms. Harriet Poe, Class of 1971. We are here to conduct an oral history interview for the African American Institutional Memory Project. Thank you, Ms. Poe, for participating in this project and for sharing with me your experiences today. I'd like to start the interview by asking about your background. If you would be willing to please share when and where you were born. A little bit about your family.
HP: I was born in Salisbury, North Carolina, about forty-five miles south of Greensboro. I have five—there are five children in the family. I'm the youngest of five. My—I grew up in a small town called East Spencer [North Carolina]. It's right out from Salisbury. My parents—my mother was a high school English teacher. My father worked with the Southern Railroad. I went to Dunbar High School, elementary and high school, a completely segregated school. So did my brothers and sisters. My oldest sister—do you want information about them?
LW: If you care to share.
HP: Okay, alright. My oldest sister went to Barber-Scotia College [Concord, North Carolina], an HBCU [history black college and universities] as you know. Finished Barber-Scotia. Got her degree, her graduate degree, at UNC Charlotte [The University of North Carolina at Charlotte, Charlotte, North Carolina] at the time, taught English in the Charlotte school system, and then her doctorate at Miami of Ohio [Miami University, Oxford, Ohio]. My next sister finished Livingstone College [Salisbury, North Carolina], another HBCU. My mother finished Livingstone College as well. So that's a little history that I wanted to point out. That sister taught in the school system in Charlotte and then married and moved to Hampton, Virginia, where she taught—she lived and taught until she retired and she still lives there. 2
My brother, the next oldest, started at Livingstone, stayed there two years, and was asked to transfer to Carolina during the time that they were trying to integrate [The] University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill [Chapel Hill, North Carolina]. So, at the request of the President at Livingstone, he agreed to transfer. So, that brother finished UNC Chapel Hill with a degree in zoology. He—after graduation, he—it was, you know, during the Civil—during the Vietnam era so he was going to be drafted so he chose instead to enlist and enlisted in the Navy, as an officer candidate in the Navy. He stayed in the Navy retired really in 2000—I think it was 2004, 2006 maybe, after reaching the rank of admiral in the Navy. And during his private time, he worked, he was a senior level officer with the CIA [Central Intelligence Agency].
My next brother went to Livingstone and graduated from Livingstone College, of course, and he too faced going into the military, or being drafted into the military or signing up, volunteering. So he volunteered and went Air Force. And he went to Vietnam. In fact, both brothers were in Vietnam and thank goodness made it home safely. But my youngest brother, who is older than I am, went in as a B-52 [Boeing B-52 Stratofortress, military plane], well became a B-52 pilot and flew bombing missions over Vietnam. After which and then ran his own businesses. Flew for Eastern [Air Lines] for a while and then had his own private company flying and is currently still working but he’s, now he’s into technology so he’s enjoying that.
So, I'm the youngest of the five. So I was slated to go to a HBCU obviously. But my experiences at Livingstone, well not at Livingstone, but at Howard [University, Washington, District of Columbia], I did a summer internship at Howard when I was in high school. Just kind of getting a feel for where I wanted to go. Didn't really like the city life, it was a little fast for a country girl. So, I opted to say, "Okay, I'm going to go to Hampton [University, Hampton, Virginia] since I have a sister right there in Hampton." Well, started the early program at Hampton after my—after graduating from high school. Started that summer, had a scholarship to Hampton. Got to Hampton, it was too far away from home. Loved the campus. The water was beautiful but it was just too far away. So, I told my mother, I said, "You know what, I'm coming back home and I'm going to Livingstone. Had not turned down my scholarship to Livingstone," so. But, when I got back and had made the decision I was going to go to Livingstone, found out that my scholarship had been given to somebody else and I had not, in fact, turned it down but the guidance counselor had turned it down for me. At any rate, my next decision was, "Okay, where am I going?" And I had applied to UNCG. Had been accepted but had not turned in any responses, had not accepted, had not done anything. So, she said, "Well, let's see about UNCG." I called. My mother had already started school and my sister, who at that time was still in Charlotte and was working at Barber-Scotia College, brought me to UNCG, sat down in the admissions office, and I don't remember the gentleman's name, but within forty-five minutes, if that long, I had money, I had a room, I had books, I had classes, everything that quickly. So, it was UNCG. And you know things work in a mysterious way and you wonder why, why things happen. But it was probably one of the best things that could have happened to me to come to 3
UNCG at that point in my life. After having been in a totally black environment in, you know, the sixties in high school. So, that's how I wound up at UNCG. Not sure if that's enough background information for you or not.
LW: No, that is great. I already have several follow up questions from that.
HP: [Chuckles] Okay.
LW: Yes, so do you have any—I find interesting that both you and your brother were part of a desegregation of two different institutions if you will.
HP: Didn't really think about it at the time. I was just thinking about going to school because the thing at my house was, you know, you're going to school, it's just a matter of where. UNCG was next on my list so that's where I was going. Now, I had chosen UNCG, had put it on my list originally because I had a cousin who was here, Karen Parker. And Karen had stayed at UNCG for two years. At that time, women could not go to the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill as a freshman. You had to start somewhere else and transfer. So she had come to UNCG for those two year and transferred to Chapel Hill. So she and my brother, who of course were both cousins, were and Chapel Hill at the same time and were more involved in the desegregation of that environment more so than I guess I felt like I was here. There were blacks here already but I guess I really wasn't looking at it in terms of, you know, I was coming to desegregate UNCG, which had, of course, been Women's College [Woman's College of the University of North Carolina] previously.
LW: Okay, so I was—you just—you made a comment in your introduction about, you know, it was good for you to experience the different environment of UNCG. So, I wanted to ask what was it like for you to go to Dunbar High School or what was your experience?
HP: It was nurturing. It was the type of nurturing that you received that made you feel as if you could do anything, you could go anywhere and compete. And that was something that my mother would always preach and my father as well. That, during that time, children were beginning to transfer to predominately white schools in the area and a lot of times my parents were asked, "Well why don't you go on and send your children to Salisbury High School," Boyden High School at that time which was predominately white, or was white, and my mother's response to them would be, “That if they learned—if my children learn everything that’s being taught here at Dunbar, they can go anywhere in the world and compete.” And that was true. That was true. You know, if you really learned everything that was being taught and all the nurturing that you were getting and people who were boosting your morale and your—feeling that you can do anything, it made all the difference in the world.
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LW: Wow, awesome. I don't know. I'm just sitting here just thinking just trying to imagine like the—being in that kind of environment especially in your formative years. Very inspiring.
HP: Yes and you know—all kinds of activities, you know, band, student council, all those activities that made you feel important and that you could function anywhere and do anything. So that was, student council was very big for me.
LW: Okay.
HP: And I always enjoyed band. Didn't play any—I wasn't an athlete but, you know, the band was really what I enjoyed.
LW: Okay, and so I know you mentioned you tried out several different institutions before coming to UNCG. So I just wanted to clarify what was the year you entered into the university.
HP: UNCG?
LW: Yes ma'am.
HP: The fall of my—that would have been '67. I finished high school in '67.
LW: Okay, fall of 1967.
HP: Because it was the summer after my junior year that I was at Howard—.
LW: Okay.
HP: For the summer science institute.
LW: Okay.
HP: And then the summer after graduating from high school that I was at Hampton, thinking that I was going to continue on and get that early start and finish—it was a program where you would finished early.
LW: Okay.
HP: So that's why I was in Hampton during the summer after my graduation.
LW: Okay, so you spent all four years at UNCG.
HP: Yes.
LW: And graduated in '71. 5
HP: Yes, yes.
LW: Okay, graduated in ‘71. Okay, so what was it like to grow up during the 1960s? I know you talked about, you know, your experiences at Dunbar High School. But anything else you would like to add to, you know, what it was like to grow up in that time period?
HP: Well, you know, I guess one of the most important things for me growing up during that time period—and you mean in my community?
LW: Yes.
HP: Was that you had the whole community behind you. You had the whole community raising you. You had the whole community encouraging you, people looking out for you. I think that's what I really, really appreciated most about that period. Didn't feel like I was being deprived of anything. You felt like everybody was pretty much in the same boat. You know, nobody was wealthy in my community. We were—we were the county school so, you know, everybody was struggling but nobody knew they didn't have everything that they needed because we felt like we did have the things that we needed, you know. No cars. You didn't get a car. Lucky if you got a bicycle. With my parents, the story was, well we can't buy five bicycles so nobody's getting one. Plus, we don't want you riding it in the street. But, you know, it was just the sense of community, neighborhood. Everybody looked out for you. I think that's what I enjoyed and appreciated the most. You know, and then you had the church, the people in the church were proud of you, so you had a whole circle of people who felt like you could do it and wanted to see you do well.
LW: Yeah, I can definitely relate to that.
HP: Yes, coming from a small town.
LW: Very small community. I'm from a small community as well and you do have that community feel.
HP: Exactly.
LW: Nurturing.
HP: Exactly.
LW: So I know you described what it was like growing up so can you describe what you feel your transition was like coming to UNCG once you made the decision to come and in that forty-five minutes [laughter].
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HP: I know right.
LW: That is amazing.
HP: That was amazing. You know I tell people all the time. I couldn't believe it. I did not get up out of the chair.
LW: Whew.
HP: We were in that same chair at that same desk with the gentleman and I cannot—I don't recall his name—and had everything I needed, didn't move out of that one chair. But, it was a culture shock and I'm sure you knew I was going to say that probably after being in that nice, nurturing environment where everybody wanted to see you do well, everybody looked out for you and you felt safe to—and even going to Hampton and Howard, I still felt like I was still in a nurturing environment.
Coming to UNCG was a culture shock, of course. My first experience in an integrated situation except for some high school committees I had been on with and they were bringing representatives from each school together to talk over the issues and what have you and a few oratorical contests I had been in where competition was mixed. It was integrated competition. Coming to UNCG was a culture shock. I think I was prepared. I wasn't going to be any different from what I had been all along.
My freshman year I was Coit [Residence Hall]. My roommate was white. She was from New Jersey. It seemed as if they put each—put one of us in each dorm because I was the only black in the dorm and I knew the friend I made in Cotten [Residence Hall], she was the only black in her dorm. So, they kind of scattered us out in seemed. You know you felt somewhat isolated and of course the tendency was to, alright, see who else is around, you know. Am I the only one? My roommate was great. No problems with that. Friendly, like I said from New Jersey. I think—I can't remember what her father did but, you could tell, upper income, upper income. But, we didn't have any problems. She didn't leave. That’s unlike the experiences my brother had at Chapel Hill. I think his freshman year, he probably went through three roommates and wound up by himself so he had a private room but that didn't happen, didn't experience any of that. Everybody seemed to be nice, I must admit.
The only thing that I experienced that really was a surprise to me, somewhat shocked me was that my roommate didn't go to class one day and she cut class, I don't know if she was sick or what was going on. Well anyway she didn't go to class and the dorm mother came in with her pass key. Didn't—thinking we both had left and gone to class. My roommate awakened, she wanted to know why she was using the pass key to come into the room. And she said she was just checking to make sure the colored girl was being clean. So, you know, that was a shocker when in fact it was my roommate who always kept a junky room and messy so you know, I thought that was ironic. You know somebody checking to see if I was clean, that took me by surprise. But other than that, no 7
real issues. Not that I was looking for them or even paying any attention as to whether or not any—there was anything going on.
Freshman year was fine. Sophomore year, my roommate again was from New Jersey. Different roommate. That was a little rough. That year was a little rough. Roommate was a little cutting edge so, little more than—country girl, I was used to all of that you know. Again, upper income family, in fact, her father was a Dean of Admissions at one of the schools up in that—one of the Ivy League schools. So I'm saying, "Why you're down here, why aren't you up there?" But anyways, she was at UNCG. She was nice enough but you know we really didn't have anything in common so she had her friends; I had mine, all of whom were black by that time. We, not, you didn't talk to people or mingle or sit at the table in the cafeteria sometimes with them but by that time, you know, my friend in Cotten was in Winfield [Residence Hall]. I was in Weil [Residence Hall] and then by the—by my junior year, a friend—a friend from Rocky Mount [North Carolina] and I decided to room together, a black friend from Rocky Mount. So, we roomed together for my junior and senior years.
Classroom experiences didn't really have any problems. Really didn't have any problems. You know the thing we always heard was, “Okay, don't be alarmed. You're going to have to go to summer school. All freshman wind up having to go to summer school nine times out of ten to take biology because usually they fail because it's the same biology that the nursing students take.” So that's, you know, they tell all freshman that. And when I say "they," other students would say that to us because the biology class and all was supposed to be so hard. So, I'm going, "Okay, well, whatever, I'm not going to summer school." You know, my mama and daddy aren't going to send me to summer school. I'm going to get it this time and, no, I'm not going to summer school. So, that's something I was proud of. I never went to summer school at UNCG. The biology that they taught was the same biology that I had in high school. My biology teacher made us come to class on Saturdays. So, they had started the new biology during that time. It was an experimental biology that they were going to teach. She was one of the teachers in the state who had—was qualified to teach that. So a lot of it was the same biology that she had taught. So, I didn't really find it that challenging. Goofed off a lot because you know, your freshman year, you just say, "Oh," you know, a lot of freedom so you do have to sort of pace yourself and realize, "Hey, this—," you know. Nobody tells you when to come in, nobody tells you to study. You just know that you can't flunk out. You can't go—be sent home because there are certain expectations and I wasn't going to be the one out of five who messed up so the pressure was on. But, you know, you learn to regulate yourself and you move on.
LW: Yes. So, I know you mentioned, you know, UNCG was already on your list when you were deciding on colleges.
HP: Yes.
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LW: So being that most of your family went to HBCUs was there any reaction from them at your decision to not go to one?
HP: No, because by that time integration—.
LW: Okay.
HP: Was playing such an important part and, you know, the realization was, you know, this is who your competition is, this is what the world is going to be looking like so you no longer are going to be in this segregated environment. That's not who your competition is going to be any more in the real world and especially after my brother left and went to Chapel Hill. So, nobody was alarmed that I had chosen UNCG. It was just time for me to do it. I had not done it in high school so it was time for me to go on and do it—.
LW: Okay.
HP: In college.
LW: So, what did you decide to major in and why while you were at UNCG?
HP: Well, originally I wanted to major in biology.
LW: Okay.
HP: I really loved biology and that's why I was at Howard that summer. But that summer also made me aware that I didn't want to be inside all day looking through a microscope. So, I loved it but it was like I don't want to do this. You know everybody was out having fun and I'm in there going back and forth to the lab, all times of day and night to determine the effect of light on the sexual reproduction of Vorticella microstoma. And it's like, you know what, I don't want to do this. I’m a—I think I'm a very people oriented person, you know, so. I know you don't even know how to spell it. Vorticella microstoma. I don't even know if I could spell it at this point in time [laughter].
LW: Yes I—we'll handle that afterwards [laughter].
HP: But I knew that's not what I wanted to do. So that was a good experience for me, you know, if you don't like it, don't do it. I decided on sociology, really social work. I had found that that was my knack. That’s really what I enjoyed. I enjoyed people. I enjoyed the helping profession really. So I decided to major in sociology with a concentration in social work and that's what I did.
LW: Yes, was there some sort of—I guess when you say you decided on sociology, that's what you enjoyed, was that just something you realized throughout your life that was something that you enjoyed, being around people and helping? 9
HP: Well, I did realize it but I thought I liked biology more.
LW: Okay.
HP: And then in the summers, what I would do, because I didn't have to go to summer school [chuckles], I—the first summer I had signed up for a position at the VA [Veteran’s Affairs] Hospital at home in Salisbury because the VA is there and I had signed up for an internship, a paying internship. However, it did not pay that summer, it did not get funded. And, I knew the social worker there. It was a young black lady who was first black social worker they had at the VA in Salisbury. So, she had told me about the program and I had decided to sign up for it. Well, it wasn't funded and when the director of social work called and said, well he was sorry it wasn't funded and he couldn't offer me the position, you know. I kind of said, "Oh, alright then thank you." And you know and then I told my mother and she said, "Then you call him back and you tell him you want to volunteer." I said, "Volunteer is not paying." She said, "You call him back and tell him you want to volunteer." She said, "Who do you think he'll call next year when it is funded?" So, I called Mr. McGuire, I remember his name, called him back and told him if it was alright I would like to volunteer my time and he was just as shocked as you appeared to be when I said that. He said, "Volunteer? There's no money." I said, "I know," I said, "I know but I would like to volunteer my time," and that's what I did. So, I got to work with the social worker doing social histories, interviewing patients, interviewing family members, making long range plans for patients. A lot of the patients at that time were returning Vietnam veterans. So, that year, I was actually in the geriatric ward, the surgical ward, and found out that I really, really enjoyed that type of work. The social worker realized that I had this thing with death and dying. That I just—and she assigned me all these cases where the men were dying and you know just having to work through that with them and affect their families. It was an experience; it really was, very, very invaluable. I just—well, she knew how much she had helped me because I had made her aware but she even required me to observe an autopsy. That type of training. So she—how are you going to talk about it if you can't, you know, or work with somebody who is going through this if you can't deal with it yourself. So, she helped me to overcome a lot of my issues.
LW: She helped you get comfortable.
HP: Very comfortable, [chuckles] very comfortable. And then that second year, when it was funded, guess who they called?
LW: They called you.
HP: They called me. Exactly. So, I wasn't with that same social worker the next year. I was with another social worker, another black female social worker. Ironically, the first social worker who had helped me through all of these died. She had 10
asthma and would have very serious attacks from time to time. So my biggest thing was I was able to go to the funeral home and sit there with, you know, with her and it's almost like, okay, you see I'm sitting here. I'm going to sit here with you for a while. I'm going to show you it's not bothering me. But yes, and she liked to crochet. She had crocheted a poncho at that time for me to go back—to bring back to UNCG. I still have it, I still have it. I don't even know if I ever wore it but I still have that poncho that she crocheted for me. So that next year I was with another social worker and I was working on the locked ward at the VA.
LW: On the locked?
HP: On the locked ward.
LW: Okay.
HP: These were really—really were the patients who were coming back from Vietnam who had all types of mental issues, medical and mental, but so they had to be locked on the ward and so you know I'm sitting in with the doctors, the social worker you know trying to interview them and you know chart their progress and just planning what, you know, in terms of what could be done, if anything, with these patients. So that was my summer at the VA. But those are the types of experiences that made me realize that I—that I really wanted to stick to social work.
LW: And so in your decision to major in it here at UNCG.
HP: Exactly, exactly.
LW: Awesome, awesome. And so you've already mentioned several residence halls. And so, did you live in a different residence hall each year or—?
HP: Just, you know, the fresh—the requirement was, you know, that you lived in the Freshman Quad and after you left the Freshman Quad, you could go to any of the other upper classman dorms.
LW: Okay.
HP: Or, you know, move around or just stay. So I chose to stay in Weil the entire time, for three years.
LW: Okay, so you was in Coit your freshman year and then Weil for the rest of the three years.
HP: Yes.
LW: Okay. 11
HP: Right. Room 214.
LW: Oh wow, see you remember the room number. I don't even remember the—I do not remember the room numbers of where I've lived.
HP: Oh, I remember 214 Weil.
LW: Okay, and so you kind of touched on it a little bit but would you care to elaborate more on what dorm life was like or is there anything else you would like to add about that?
HP: Dorm life was interesting [chuckles] to say the least. I learned a lot about things I didn't know about having been sheltered. Surprisingly enough, the experiences, my experiences, and the experiences of a lot of the young ladies who had come were very different. So, you know, I guess I was listening more than anything else just trying to—just trying to take it all in, you know. Learning about another facet of life and how other people lived and viewed dating. You know, how they felt about dating, interracial dating. That was becoming obvious. Not as obvious as it is today but at that time some interracial dating. Not as open but some interracial dating. Just observing that, it was interesting. Didn't go out a lot. Boyfriend was at A&T [North Carolina Agricultural & Technical State University, Greensboro, North Carolina] so I was seeing him so I didn't feel like I had to be in the crowd or with the crowd so I guess in a way that was very good. One of the big things that would happen every year is that they would have what they called Spring Charlies. I don't know if anyone ever mentioned that.
LW: Someone has mentioned it but no one has been able to remember what it was.
HP: Spring Charlies was the time—in the spring time. They would get buses; they'd charter buses and take the girls from UNCG to Chapel Hill.
LW: The cattle drives.
HP: Is that what they called it?
LW: That's how I've also heard it as the cattle drives.
HP: Oh, I haven't heard that terminology.
LW: Okay.
HP: They would call it Spring Charlies and they’d go down there for Spring Charlies to—.
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LW: Okay. Yes, to Carolina, Duke [University, Durham, North Carolina], and State [North Carolina State University, Raleigh, North Carolina], to those institutions.
HP: Right, right.
LW: Okay. And they also do it—because another alumna had mentioned there were Spring Charlies and there was Fall Charlies.
HP: It may have been Fall Charlies. I just remember—.
LW: It may have happened twice a year?
HP: Probably twice a year.
LW: Okay.
HP: Yes, so girls would hang out at the frat houses and just maybe go to a game but I never went. I never went. Going down there to visit my brother was enough for me. It’s like, “I don't want to go back down there. You know, do I have to go to take you back to school?” It's like, "Oh, I did not want to go to Chapel Hill." It's like no. So, I said, “No, I don't want to go.” But, like I said, by dating someone, you know I didn't have any real reason to want to go. So, I didn't go to Spring Charlies or the cattle drive. I wasn't—and actually I don't know any—I know my three closest friends never went so, but I think we all managed to find somebody over at A&T or somebody in the area so we didn't go—we didn’t go to Charlie.
LW: Well, you know in mentioning, you know, that A&T that is a segue into another question that I have. Was there a lot of inter-institutional mixing of students especially for the African American students here at UNCG with A&T, with Bennett [College, Greensboro, North Carolina], you know being another HBCU.
HP: Very little, very little. You know, I think we were somewhat resented by the A&T students, by the Bennett students. I know the Bennett girls didn't want us dating the guys from A&T—felt a little threatened. At that time we didn't have sororities on campus. I don't know if anybody mentioned that to you or not that there were no sororities on campus so we had to pledge at Bennett or A&T and I don't even think even A&T at that time even allowed us to pledge there. But Bennett did and my roommate at the time wanted to pledge. And they were giving her such a hard way to go. I think there may have been five girls from UNCG who wanted to pledge at Bennett, one particular sorority, I'm not going to call the name.
LW: I understand.
HP: At that time and they gave them such a hard time till my roommate called her mother and I don’t know if they have Grand Basileus or Presidents, but I think they have Presidents, but anyway, and her—just so happened the President of the 13
National Chapter was my roommate's godmother [laughter]. So she called over and told every last one of the girls from A&—from UNCG who wanted to pledge had better be allowed to go over. And my thinking was you know why even do it if you got—got to be forced to be accepted. But I think it was a tradition in my roommate's family that they all pledged the same sorority. So she just wanted to get that over with. So it wasn't that she was trying to be sisters with or sorors with the girls at Bennett. But, yes, it was a real resentment seemingly.
LW: Okay, okay, and so not a lot of back and forth with A&T either? Even for parties—I know some people have mentioned parties and going over to their—.
HP: Well, private parties, yes, usually a lot of house parties.
LW: Okay.
HP: But to just be on A&T's campus, I wasn't there, no, because if I wasn't here on campus I usually went home. Wasn't a lot of time for hanging out and that type thing. Remember I was on a mission [chuckles]. I was on a mission so.
LW: Yes ma'am, four years or less.
HP: That is exactly, exactly right. But, you know A&T did offer the outlet of, you know, football, basketball games, and like you said house parties. If you knew somebody and my boyfriend had pledged so you know I could do some of the things that he was doing that his frat [fraternity] was involved in so, you know, that was helpful. That was helpful.
LW: Okay, so what do you remember about the—with the individuals that you would spend time with on campus, what you would—what ya'll would do when you're not studying for classes or in class?
HP: Well, by that time everybody had a date, had somebody they were dating. So a lot of things happened at Elliott Hall during that time. A lot of things were going on at Aycock [Auditorium], a lot of concerts. You know it was, it was, I guess the best thing about it was that we were able to be exposed to some of the entertainment that we had never been able to be exposed to, people like Stevie Wonder came and all the different bands and, oh my goodness, 5th Dimension at that point, at that time. You don't even remember.
LW: Are you saying 5th Dimension?
HP: The 5th Dimension, the group.
LW: Oh, the fifth, oh okay.
HP: You don't know anything about them. 14
LW: No.
HP: They were here. So you know, there was a lot going on on campus. There were a lot of lectures going on that, you know, you were able to take part in or have people to come. A lot of art exhibits. There was always something going on on campus and you really felt like you really needed to take in that cultural part as well so we'd do that. Go downtown a lot. At that point in time downtown was bustling, you know, it was a lot going on. You know, you could catch the bus and go or just walk. It really wasn't that far. Other than that and I know probably were some who were more into campus activities and groups and clubs. I had joined the Neo-Black Society, so you know you had meetings with them and then I was, had become student counselor with the—and I'm not sure if it was for incoming black students so everybody was assigned a mentor so I was sort of a mentor for some of the black students coming in. So you spent your time doing that and, like I said, a lot of times I just went home. You know, it's like, I'm headed to the bus station or if you can catch a ride with somebody you just catch a ride and go home.
LW: Yes. So you mentioned the Neo-Black Society. Could you elaborate more on what the organization was like or maybe what it meant to you or some of the activities the organization—?
HP: Well, they would have speakers in. They would have exhibits as well. Discussions on various topics, heated at times. Just sort of keeping your feet on the ground in terms of trying to keep you aware of, you know, what's going on. You know, demonstrations, planning those. I know there was a demonstration where the cafeteria workers were protesting because they weren’t being paid. I don't know if anybody mentioned that or not.
LW: Yes, I know about it from research done on the institutional history but you're the first person to actually bring it up.
HP: So, you know, the group kind of spear headed that in terms of help, you know, in marching with some of the cafeteria workers for higher wages.
LW: Okay, so the students joined in with the workers to march, okay.
HP: Yes, so they were helping with that. Of course one of the big things was when—I guess was when Martin Luther King [Jr.] was killed. Of course, you know what that did. But there were times when some of the riots were going on that, you know, they had, and I don't know if anybody mentioned this, when the tanks were placed on each end of the campus to—the National Guard.
LW: For UNCG or A&T because I knew A&T had National Guard come in.
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HP: They had National Guards posted at the entrances on UNCG's campus.
LW: Oh, no one has mentioned that.
HP: Yes, because my boyfriend tried to come over and he was saying, you know, there were tanks there blocking the entrance, National Guard troops blocking the entrances and trucks blocking the entrance, and that's so people I guess could not get on UNCG's campus as well. Because you know nothing was going on over here. Nobody was rioting over here but I think they just wanted to make sure it didn't happen over here. So that was a frightening time. It's you know, it's kind of been mixed emotions. Good times, depressing times, sad times, and I think the Neo-Black Society sort of kept you grounded to remind you of what the real world was like out there. And, you know, you had to stay focused. You really had to stay focused or you get lost into this pseudo environment that you were living in that really wasn't a real picture of the real world. Because you felt safe, you felt okay. You know, one of the—we had everything we needed and wanted. The food was good unlike the food at A&T and other places. You know because the guys would come over here and want to have, you know, want to eat because the food was good. You know, our parlors, as we called them back then, you know, were beautiful. Nobody's ever mentioned how—.
LW: Oh parlors.
HP: We called them parlors.
LW: Okay, I thought you said Apollo at first. I was like—.
HP: No, no, no, parlors, I'm sorry.
LW: Okay.
HP: Waiting rooms.
LW: Gotcha. A parlor.
HP: But the term they referred to them as the parlor. You know, beautiful, traditional furniture, baby grand pianos, French Aubusson rugs [wool rugs] on the floor. So, that's the environment we were in over here. But you go across town, go to A&T's dorms, and sit downstairs in their waiting areas and it was just terrible. So you know, we had to realize this wasn't the real world for us, but you know, while we were here, I guess, we enjoyed it. But we had to realize it just wasn't equal, it wasn't the same. Don't know if that tells you anything at all.
LW: It did, it did.
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HP: We had—of course we had maids in each dorm. I think there were maybe two for—one for each floor in the dorm I believe. You know, with uniforms and you're going like—that was surprising. It was just—it was not the real world for me and for a lot of us but it was the world that we were exposed to while we were here.
LW: Wow, you kind of already touched on my next question so I'm not sure if I need to ask it.
HP: Well, what was that question?
LW: Well, I was going to say, you know, UNCG in the 1960s saw the increase of African American students on campus so what was the relationship was like between those students and also with white students? But you already mentioned with the Neo-Black Society kind of kept everyone together.
HP: You know I—I think everybody's experience was different and I think, I think it depended on what you came here for. If you came here to be a black student leader, you could be that if that's what you wanted to be. If you wanted to come here to study and do what you're going to do and not participate in anything, you could do that. Nobody pressured you to do anything. Sometimes you might feel a little pressure because you opted to do something else as opposed to participating in something that, you know, the group felt like you should have been participating in. But, you know what, that's what's we were here for, to become individuals and stand and say, you know, this is what I'm going to do or not going do, so [chuckles].
LW: Alright, and so I know when you came to UNCG—well, when you came to the university, it recently became, you know, UNCG. It just became co-educational so I wanted to ask kind of what was your—what are your memories or maybe the impression you got of the university as it was becoming known as from a woman's college to becoming a co-educational institution?
HP: You know I didn't give it much thought because, like I said, I was dating somebody.
LW: [Laughter].
HP: But very few men, very few black men. The ones that were here were very smart seemingly, you know, just very nice. I remember Chuck Edington [Charles Arthur Edington, Class of 1971]. I think Chuck was in admissions for a while. After he finished I think he came back as, I don't know if he was admissions director but in admissions with UNCG for a while. I think we had one co-ed dorm. That was the big thing, the co-ed dorm and co-ed visitation. All that was big. I don't know if anybody mentioned that but, you know, you had to get your parents to sign that you could have co-ed visitation. If you were under a certain age, then you had to 17
sign. You know I guess I did not really feel that we didn't have enough guys around because, you know, there were guys in and out. A lot of them were day students so, off-campus students. I can't really say that I can give you an honest opinion about, about that. I think I would have liked it if there had been more young men on campus but at least we were beginning to see the young men come.
LW: Okay. So how would you describe the interactions with the students on campus with the administration or if you had any interaction with the administration?
HP: I tried not to.
LW: Okay.
HP: I tried not to, and I'm very serious. I didn't feel the need to; maybe that is what I should say. And I know there were some who liked to stay and talk to the professors and this and that. You know what? Let me just hear what you got to say, let me go study, and let me try to do what it is I need to be doing. I don't want to come back and talk to you. That's, that was just me and that was just my take on it. I didn't feel the need. If I had an issue, yes, I would come back and ask if there was a problem with the course or something, yes I would, but I did not have any bad experiences with my professors. I will be perfectly honest with you and the bad experience that I guess I had, or if you want to call it bad, was the same one everybody had. You know, the professor was extremely difficult. First day in he said, "I'll tell you two things about this class. It’s going to be hard as hell and everybody is going to flunk." So, everybody had that same problem. The next day, half the class was gone and I'm saying, "I'm not going anywhere. He can't flunk everybody." So it was just that type of thing because the professors were very serious. They, you know, they expected you to get your work; you get your work, that's all they wanted you to do. Do the best you can do and some of the classes, all you wanted do was pass and get out of there and not take it over, especially if it wasn't a requirement. So I think that's what a lot of us did. But no, I—you know I didn't go back and talk to them. I didn't feel the need to and I didn't want to. I just wanted to get the work done and get out of there.
LW: [Chuckles] Okay.
HP: So I may not be your typical interviewee. I don’t know.
LW: Oh no, no. But that is good information because it helps for my generation and you know for future generations hearing the interview understand the very wide, varied experiences that different students had here on campus, not monolithic.
HP: Yes. Exactly, exactly, it just depended on why you came and what you wanted to get out of the experience and I think mine was just the exposure, the exposure. Didn't think I couldn't do the work. I just—I needed the exposure to an integrated situation and that's what I felt like UNCG was doing for me to perfectly honest. 18
LW: [Laughter] Alright, well, what were some of the things you did after you graduated from UNCG?
HP: After I finished UNCG, I accepted a position in Salisbury as a social worker. My field placement while I was here at UNCG was not the best but thank goodness I had those experiences at the VA Hospital that sort of supplemented my educational background and hands-on experience. So, I accepted a job with social services in Salisbury as a social worker, as a Social Worker 1, may I may say. Because during that time, unless the program was accredited or something, a certain course work had to be taught, you could not go, could not take a state job as a Social Worker 1. You'd have to come in as a social worker trainee and I do know that although A&T had one of the best social work programs on the East Coast and their field placements had been excellent and the majority of those social work students went on the graduate school, they came out having to do be social worker trainees as opposed to being Social Worker 1 and getting paid at a higher rate. So, but you know because I had gone to UNCG, it was viewed as a program that met all that criteria.
So, I did that, then went to grad school because the social worker from the VA had decided that I was going to grad school so I hadn’t decided that but they had decided that. So I went to the University of Georgia [Athens, Georgia] for a semester. Decided I did not like Commerce—Athens, Georgia, and that whole area and it's like, “No, I don't want to be a social worker. That's okay.” Came back, came to Greensboro, took a social worker job with Guilford County and came back to UNCG and did graduate work. Did not—I did all my classwork but did not do my comps [comprehensive exams] but continued on in social work and took a position with the state as a, back to the biology now, took a position with the state as a health counselor. I counseled people with hemoglobinopathies and different types of blood-related diseases, particularly working with the Sickle Cell Program and other hemoglobinopathies. So I did that in the western part of the state in North Carolina.
And I did that for, actually had applied for that job and a job in the federal government and I said whichever one comes open first is where I'm going. That one came open first and I took it. I made a commitment to the director that, “Okay, I plan to stay two years.” Six months, the position came open with the federal government and I explained to them I just had to take that opportunity because that really sounded like something I really, really, really wanted to do. And, she agreed that—was not upset with me because you know, you hate to leave a job in a fashion that—you know, you always want to be able to go back to it if you have to. But anyway, took a job with the federal government with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission as an investigator. So for the past thirty-five years that's what I have done. I have investigated and fought employment discrimination based on race, sex, religion, national origin, gender, you name it. So that's what I've done for the past thirty-five years in Charlotte, North Carolina.
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LW: So I'm guessing they have branches all over. I guess when you say federal I kind of assumed everyone goes to D.C. [Washington, District of Columbia].
HP: No, you go to D.C. for your training but, yes, we have offices throughout the United States, twenty-six offices and they may have combined one or two of them. But Charlotte was the district office for North and South Carolina. So, you know, I had cases in North and South Carolina and some even when we took over the Baltimore [Maryland] office region out of—I had cases in Virginia as well, so Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina.
LW: Okay, and so have you been involved with the university since you've graduated?
HP: Actually I have not.
LW: Okay.
HP: I have not. I really didn't have time, truth be known. Honestly I really, really didn't have time. And I must admit that I am involved with HBCUs, Livingstone College. I've been very involved because it just feels like home. You know everybody—my family is there, has been there, so it's like I'm there anyway and I have volunteered time there and I’ve worked with them on some projects and alumni association, but not with UNCG. I honestly have not and I got married during that period of time and so I was living in Charlotte and after I divorced, my mother became ill. I moved back to Salisbury to help take care of my parents. And so after my mother passed, I continued to stay there with my father until he passed in 2002. At that point in time I said there was no need in moving to Charlotte, I'm not going down there. So, I drove back and forth from Charlotte from 1985 until I retired in 2014. So I really didn't have a lot of time to volunteer anywhere, as much time as I spent on the road going back and forth to work and traveling and doing my investigations.
LW: So, I know you've mentioned several times, you know, one thing that UNCG did for you was help provide that integrated experience which prepared you for life. I just wanted to ask if there was anything else or was that the main thing you would like people to know about how UNCG impacted you?
HP: I think that's the biggest impact it had—I think that's what I needed from UNCG. And I think each one of us came to UNCG needing something. And I like to look at it as the total picture or the whole ball. And that was the part I had missing I think. I think everything else my family had provided for me. My school had provided for me. My community had provided. You know my parents had provided. I think that was that little sliver that I had not had exposure to that I really needed to be able to do the job that I was able to do for thirty-five years and be able to recognize it when I saw it, you know. Because it just prepared me to be able to sit at a table like this, at the head of the table, with people from all walks of life, from all corporations, attorneys from all across the country and be able to 20
say to them, you know, you've discriminated against this person and you've got to make them whole. You know, the evidence does not show that this person was, you know, just—had made this up. The evidence shows that this person was discriminated against and the law says that, you know, you have to right this situation. So, just being able to have my mind open, I was opened I guess, an open book in terms of okay, let's just see what this environment is like and even though I can't say that I specifically recall events, I think the one that sticks out most in my mind is the fact that, you know, the dorm mother had to check to see if I was being clean. So, there were other things and I can't be able to recall them but you know I know they were there and, you know, constantly your eyes were being opened to something else that didn't feel right or you knew it was happening for some reason, you know, so what was the reason other than. So, I think everybody—all of us came here needing something and wanting to get something but we just didn't even know ourselves what it was UNCG was going to do for us.
LW: It wasn't until years later you could connect the dots.
HP: Exactly, you could connect the dots and being able to stand your ground because people will challenge you here. People will challenge you in some shape, form, or fashion and you had to learn to stand up. You really, really did. If not, you'd get pushed to the side and, you know, like my mother would always say, you know, “People will walk over you and back back over you if you don't stand your ground.” And that's true, you know, be it in the dorm, pushing an issue, or an opinion, or what have you. You have to learn to stand your ground.
LW: Yes. Well—
HP: So I don't know if any of this has provided any information.
LW: No, this was a great interview [chuckles]. You provided so much information. That is all of my formal questions. Is there anything else you would like to add to the interview? Any memories or—?
HP: You know I can say that I have lifelong friendships.
LW: Okay.
HP: You know, now, there are two people I may not talk to them for six months, maybe a year. But we can pick up the phone and pick up where we left off as if nothing ever happened and that's because of the bond we had developed sort of look out for each other. You know money was running short, you know, well I’ve got some, well you can use some. Well my mama is going to send me some money. Or my mother sent a care package so let's just, let’s eat that. You know, those types of things and just a shoulder to cry on or somebody to just say hey, you know I don't know if I can take it any longer but—so, two great friends, Beverly [M.] Armstrong [Class of 1970] and Gwendolyn Carter [Class of 1972], 21
both graduates. Bev finished a semester before I did. Because she was taking some extra courses, she was a speech pathologist in Cleveland County—Cleveland, Ohio, and Gwendolyn Carter. Now Gwen dropped out and had to—she came back to summer school and then finished I think. She was head of an AIDS project in Brooklyn, New York.
LW: Are you saying age?
HP: AIDS.
LW: Oh, AIDS, A-I-D-S.
HP: AIDS Project in Brooklyn, so life-long friend, life-long friends.
LW: And then, with Ms. Carter, do you know which year she graduated?
HP: You know what? It was probably '72.
LW: '72.
HP: It was probably '72 when she finished.
LW: Alright, well thank you so very much.
HP: My pleasure.
LW: I've appreciated and I have enjoyed hearing your stories. Thank you so very much.
HP: Well, you're more than welcome. Don't know if it was a real story or just, you know a stream of incidents along the way but certainly I feel like I was supposed to be at UNCG.
LW: That's good.
HP: I really do.
LW: That's awesome. Well, I'm going to turn the recorder off.
HP: That’s great.
[End of interview]