Oral history interview with Sandra Byrd Tatum, 2011 [text/print transcript]

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THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT GREENSBORO
INSTITUTIONAL MEMORY COLLECTION
INTERVIEWEE: Sandra Byrd Tatum
INTERVIEWER: Sarah McNulty
DATE: April 13, 2011
SM: [Today is April 13, 2011 and my name is Sarah McNulty. I am at the home of Sandra
Byrd Tatum in Raleigh, North Carolina to conduct an oral history interview for the
African American Institutional Memory Project, which is part of The University of North
Carolina at Greensboro Institutional Memory Collection. Mrs. Tatum, please tell me
about your memories of the university.]
ST: What segregated us was the school. Because, we were segregated in the dormitory. But to
us, we didn’t see it as a disregard for us, for us being colored. We just thought it was fun.
I mean we had our whole hall. We had our kitchen. We had our bathroom. We had
everything. We were in Coit [Residence Hall] the first year and upper classmen we were
in Ragsdale [Residence Hall]. And, of course, we had a private room. With us it was the
best of both worlds.
SM: Well, do you think we can start—just so, for the interview that I can kind of get your time
line like just some information about you? Okay. Can you at least tell me about like
where you born and your birthday?
ST: I was born in Greensboro, 1942. L. Richardson Hospital.
SM: And you said you went to [James B.] Dudley [High School]?
ST: So, for the first through the seventh grade I was at Grace Lutheran School. And, Lincoln
Junior High, and then Dudley. [I] Graduated from Dudley.
SM: What year did you graduate?
ST: 1960.
SM: ’60. So, you are the same—you graduated the same year as Marian [Thornhill McClure]?
ST: Yes.
SM: Okay. And Janet [Harper] as well?
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ST: Janet is from Lenoir, [North Carolina].
SM: From Lenoir, oh, yes, that’s right.
ST: She graduated the same year. It was three of us: me, Marian, and Francine McAdoo
[Scott]. We all graduated [in 1960].
SM: Did you apply to any other colleges?
ST: Oh, yes.
SM: Do you remember—
ST: I applied at [North Carolina] A&T [State College], Bennett [College]. I was accepted at
all the colleges.
SM: And was there anything about Woman’s College that made you want to go there over
Bennett or A&T?
ST: I think because we knew it was a good, all women’s college. And everything that we had
read about a Woman’s College was good academically. So, I guess, what I remember
now that was the reason. I really don’t know. When thinking back, it’s hard to think back
what you did when you were a kid.
SM: Right.
ST: You know, we were seventeen, eighteen years old.
SM: And reasons change, or memory changes.
ST: So, I think it was just something that the three of us decided. I don’t know what Marian
thinks about it, or Francine for that matter, or Janet. We just felt it was the college for
women.
SM: Had either of your parents gone to college before?
ST: My mother.
SM: Did she go in Greensboro, or did she go to Bennett?
ST: To Bennett.
SM: Okay. Did they support your decision to go there?
ST: Sure.
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SM: They weren’t worried or?
ST: You know, I don’t remember. I was quite aware of segregation. How could you not be,
you know? Sometimes with us it was a novelty. It was, you know, to get away with
drinking from the water fountain. But my parents and my family, I guess, I was kind of
protected from segregation. So, I didn’t feel like I was being segregated against. You
understand what I’m saying?
SM: Yes.
ST: You know, I had a very happy childhood. At Dudley High I loved it. I loved high school.
I have no feelings about being in a segregated school. I mean I was a majorette. I was in
drama [and] in dance group. I was in all these activities and I was an A student. So, I
really enjoyed being at Dudley. Now, I have one daughter, and with her, her school year
here was entirely different from mine. So, again, I didn’t have this feeling going to
Woman’s College that I am going and integrating this school. [It] was not [the] purpose
at all. And I really think I went there because my friends were going. And, then, I
realized it really wasn’t for me.
SM: How many years did you stay?
ST: Two [years].
SM: Two.
ST: I was not going to be involved in things that I had been involved with in high school.
SM: Why is that? Why did that change once you went to Woman’s College? Were you not
allowed to be in certain groups or activities? Like could you have been in dance groups at
Woman’s College?
ST: What dance group?
SM: I mean, I don’t know—
ST: I don’t recall any such activities. I mean I know they had a big drama department, but
these were drama majors.
SM: Oh.
ST: You see? I did work there building props. I did that. That’s the only involvement I had
with the drama department.
SM: So you were a nursing major?
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ST: I’m a nurse, yes. And, of course, there were football games and basketball games and
things like that, we really enjoyed. It was good. It was what I was used to at Dudley.
SM: Why did you pick Norfolk as opposed to A&T?
ST: It was recommended. One of the counselors at Woman’s College recommended an
excellent program.
SM: In nursing?
ST: Yes. That’s why.
SM: Had you started your nursing major at all at Woman’s College?
ST: No.
SM: Just the general education.
ST: So, anyway, I don’t know what else you are interested in—
SM: Well, you were saying earlier before I turned the microphone on about your residence—
well, right when I turned it on, you talked about the residence halls, how you guys were
segregated. You had your own floor and bathroom and the halls. Did you live in staff
rooms, or were you in regular kinds of—
ST: We were in Coit Hall.
SM: Okay. Some people talk about staff, they lived in like a staff floor.
ST: That was upper classmen.
SM: Upper classmen.
ST: Freshmen, you know, they had freshmen dorms?
SM: Yes.
ST: I don’t know what it’s like now.
SM: Oh, I’m a graduate student. I didn’t go to UNCG.
ST: You don’t now. I don’t know.
SM: I assume freshmen probably lived in the same dorm.
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ST: Then there were freshmen dorms. And you had curfews. You had strict curfews as
freshmen.
SM: Now, does the other sophomore year you didn’t have curfew?
ST: Well, not as strict as the freshmen curfews. But the halls, Coit Hall, I guess all the
freshmen dorms is the parlor, the very center. When you walk in, it’s a parlor. And, then,
there were halls and rooms on each hall. So, we had an entire hall. And, you know, we
had roommates. But, then, we decided we can have our single room.
SM: So, did you have a roommate at first?
ST: Yes, Janet was my roommate.
SM: Janet was, okay.
ST: Yes.
SM: And you met, I guess, the first day when you moved in?
ST: Yes. And we’re still friends.
SM: And when you moved in did any of the girls on the white floors come and meet you? Did
you ever mingle in the dorms?
ST: But let me tell you this. I guess about two years ago there was a message on my
answering machine. This person had called, and gave me her name and number and
would I please call them. And, you know, I write down things. And I’m thinking, “I don’t
know who this is.” So, maybe a week later I happened to look. And I thought, “Let me
call and see who this is.” The name was [Carol] Koch. But Koch was her maiden name.
So, I did call her. Well, she was one of the two, I think, white girls that moved down on
our floor. I vaguely remembered that when she was telling me. And I’m thinking, “Oh,
yes, I remember.” And the reason she called me is that she was—she was doing a paper. I
don’t know if it was a theses or what. But she was interested in, I guess, the reception that
we received from the white students. And, so, I told her practically the same thing I’m
telling you. But she wanted to know if the Jewish students were more friendly than the
white students—and I said, “I don’t know. Because I didn’t know who was Jewish.”
SM: You remember her first name?
ST: No, I don’t. And I was thinking about that when you called, when I got this letter. She
lives in High Point, [North Carolina]. I do know that. She and another girl moved on our
floor. Well, she was real friendly with Diane [Oliver]. She was from Charlotte, a black
student from Charlotte. It was two students from Charlotte, Diane and Madelyn [Russell].
I lost contact with her. Madelyn was my roommate, upper classmen dorm.
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SM: What was her last name?
ST: Madelyn Russell, I think.
SM: I have.
ST: Because Janet can remember [things] better than I can. But Koch said she and Diane were
good friends. She and Diane spent a lot of time together. Diane was—let’s see. She was
kind of introvert, I guess. And, she didn’t go to the dances. Janet and I went to the
dances, because we had dates. I guess that’s why Koch and she had more time to spend
together. And I don’t know who the other girl was. She didn’t even mention her name.
But I think it was just two of them that moved down. And she said that they had to get
permission from their parents. So, I’ve always said back then the students were not the
problem. It was the adults that were the problem. But, anyway, we talked. And she gave
me her address there and called her and come to visit. She would visit me. I just lost
contact with her. But I’m sure I could find that number if I would look.
SM: Yes, I can definitely look it up for you, too. I’m sure she’s in the yearbook. We have the
yearbooks from those years.
ST: The last name was Koch. And I think she was Jewish.
SM: That helps to know last names. Well, you said that you became a nurse when you went to
Norfolk?
ST: Yes.
SM: Do you pronounce it Norfolk?
ST: Norfolk.
SM: How did you find Woman’s College academically? What was it like for you as a student?
Was it—
ST: What was it like?
SM: Yes, what was it like?
ST: Academically, it was good. It was hard work. And it was good. It prepared me. I guess to
tackle any course.
SM: Did you know you wanted to do nursing at this point?
ST: Yes.
SM: So, did you go straight from high school knowing you wanted to be a nurse?
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ST: Oh, yes.
SM: So, you were always a science person?
ST: I knew when I was a kid I was going to be a nurse.
SM: Really?
ST: It was a really good experience. I don’t remember any difficulty with the professors. I
don’t remember being treated any different from the other students.
I think I had a biology course with Janet. I didn’t have any classes with any of my
other classmates.
The only problem—the only thing—bad experience I had was swimming. I’ve
always had a fear of the water. So, then, I think we had to take freshmen [physical
education]. And I tried so hard. I was doing good until we got to diving. We had to be
able to dive in. And I was standing there saying, “I can’t do this. I can’t do this.” And she
pushed me in. And, of course, they drug me out. I didn’t flunk the course.
SM: This is part of your PE [physical education] requirement?
ST: Yes, we had to take swimming.
SM: And they made you have a swim test up to a certain point a couple of years ago.
ST: But that was my only negative experience that I can recall. [laughter]
SM: Did you feel prepared for college?
ST: Oh, yes.
SM: From high school?
ST: Sure. The courses were college-prep courses at Dudley. So, yes, we had excellent
teachers at Dudley. I remember one of our class reunions, my homeroom teacher, she was
tough. And students that had to do their student teaching under her were so afraid of her.
She really was tough. But she told me—she was a guest at our reunion. I think it was our
thirtieth reunion. She said to me, “You were lazy as hell.” She said “You should have
been a doctor instead of a nurse.”
SM: Do you remember her name?
ST: Yes, Nell Coley. I’ll never forget that name. But she was so good. And I was [in] honor
society and an A student. And she would say, “Well, you could have done better.”
Because I’m going to tell you I feel at some point integration of schools was the
worst thing that happened [at that time]. And you are not going to hear many blacks
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saying that. But I think that black students were used to kind of a negative reinforcement.
You know, “You better do this. You’re not going to get a dollar for making an A,” or
“You do this because this is what you’re supposed to do.” So, I think we worked best
under that kind of leadership.
[The Dudley High School principal was Dr.] Tarpley, T-A-R-P-L-E-Y. He was
tough. He was really tough. But he, you know, you came dressed for school. He would
tell the guys, if you only have one pair of slacks, it has to be a dress pair. No blue jeans.
No—you came to school looking like you were going on a job interview.
If you misbehaved tell your mama and daddy to come in here or whatever. I
remember my ex-husband—we dated [in] junior high, high school, and at Dudley. There
was a connection to another building, an overhang, and a little brick wall there. He was
sitting on the brick wall. I was sitting on his thigh. And I looked [up at] Dr. Tarpley—and
I thought, “Oh, my God.” I jumped up. And when I got home, they knew about it. I had
to go to his office. That’s the way we were treated in high school.
SM: Very strict.
ST: But we loved it. Nell Coley, I loved that woman, you know? She was a role model. So,
all of that was just wonderful.
SM: Well, you had kind of an interesting experience because you were from Greensboro.
ST: Yes.
SM: So, did you still—you could have lived at home, I guess, essentially, and gone to
Woman’s College. What made you decide to live on campus?
ST: Because I just wanted to. I wanted to have the experience of being away from home and
sort of growing up and being responsible. But I would come home and get my laundry
done and certain things.
SM: So, did you stayed connected to home or friends that didn’t go to Woman’s College?
ST: My granddaughter has done the exact same thing. She stayed on campus at A&T her
freshman year. Then she went back home. She graduated last year. But even if you’re in
the dorm, you’re still going to come home and have things done for you, or take food
back, or whatever. But it was good being on campus with the students, being a part of the
student body.
SM: Well, and when you were in high school I’m assuming you lived close to Dudley?
ST: No.
SM: Where did you live?
ST: No, we lived over near A&T—
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SM: Oh, okay.
ST: No, we walked to school and back. We loved it. And, especially if you were in high
school. When I was at Lutheran School, it was about a mile from where I lived. The
school is still there. The church is still there. When I come home once a month, I go to
church there. So, of course, I walked back and forth to school, junior high and high
school. Lincoln is right across the street from Dudley. It was about eight miles or so from
where I lived.
If the weather was bad, of course, somebody took us to school, probably my
grandfather. If the weather was bad, if it snowed, we weren’t out of school when it
snowed those years.
SM: And you said that your ex-husband and you dated in junior high and high school, and I’m
guessing in college?
ST: Yes.
SM: So, you obviously were connected to him through A&T. Did a lot of your other high
school classmates go to A&T?
ST: Oh, yes.
SM: Did you—
ST: The [Greensboro] Sit-ins were done—they were my classmates.
SM: Because [the] guys graduated the year before you?
ST: Yes, they were a year ahead of me.
SM: Did you know any of them personally?
ST: Yes.
SM: Friends?
ST: Sure.
SM: Really?
ST: Sure. Ezell Blair. Now, he has another name.
SM: He’s Jibreel Khazan now.
ST: Yes. His sister is my classmate, Jean Blair. But Ezell’s father taught at Dudley.
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SM: Is Ezell, Senior, right?
ST: Yes. He taught at Dudley, and he taught what they called shop [class]. And I always hung
with guys. I didn’t have many female friends that I hung around with. We would have
lunch at the shop all the time, my ex-husband, Ezell, David Richmond and a couple of
other guys. But I was the only girl there in the group. And that’s when they were talking
about integrating the lunch counters. They started talking about that before they got to
A&T. And, then, of course, the other guy there joined them. So, yes, I knew them from
high school. I kept up with David until he died.
SM: I actually interviewed his brother for a separate project about East White Oak
community—his brother, Franklin. His brother, I interviewed him a couple of months
ago.
ST: Oh, did you?
SM: Yes. So, we got to talk about that. That’s interesting. Now, when the [Greensboro] Sit-ins
happened, did you have any communication with them, or did you—
ST: Yes, I would go downtown. We gathered down there. You know, they were going, proud.
There was a bunch of them that got arrested. It was fun to them to be in jail [laughing]. I
knew I wasn’t going to be in jail, because I had to be in class. But it was a very good
experience, very safe, very organized. I don’t remember any serious problems. They were
students, and they were intelligent kids that knew what to do and what not to do and how
far to go, you know? But, yes, I knew them quite well.
SM: So, would you actually participate in the protest, or would you actually just go and see
what was happening.
ST: No, I was down in the crowd protesting. But like I said, I couldn’t go to jail.
SM: Right.
ST: I wasn’t going to take that chance. But, of course, we were—I mean, it took numbers, not
just the kids that were sitting at the counter, but it took the support from the crowds
outside.
SM: Woman’s College was pretty famous because there were white women who went down
there to protest—
ST: Sure.
SM: It got a lot of people’s attention.
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ST: My husband, now, Edward [Williams], he answered the door. That we crossed each
other’s path about the time that we were thirteen and fourteen.
SM: Really?
ST: He’s from West Virginia. And his parents moved here—his mother was the manager of
Grant Department Store, the first woman, those years ago.
SM: It’s Grants?
ST: Grant.
SM: Was this in Greensboro?
ST: Yes.
SM: Okay.
ST: She—they would send her to open stores at different places. And they happened to be in
Greensboro at that time.
We—this was before the Sit-ins. We were just teenagers then. But this is
something else that I had fun doing as a teenager. Because the Carolina Theater [was
segregated] we had to go up the stairs and sit in the balcony. Well, they had Circle K
every Saturday. That started, I don’t know, about ten o’clock [Saturday morning].
SM: Where was that?
ST: It’s downtown.
SM: Circle K, what were you saying?
ST: Circle K was the movie that they had on Saturday mornings. It was Saturday morning.
But I always say my parents didn’t know I was going there and had to sit in that balcony.
See, this is a thing, there was the colored theater, Palace Theater, that was on Market
Street.
SM: Oh, okay.
ST: That is where we were supposed to be going. Well, we did go. But we went to Circle K
first. And we walked. See, we walked everywhere we went. So, of course, we walked
downtown. We would stop by and get doughnuts. You could buy the doughnuts, Krispy
Kreme doughnuts, just walk by and get them and go on. We would get in the movie for a
quarter, get a box of popcorn, a Tootsie Roll Pop, and a Coke. Mr. Darnell was in charge
and he was a serious man.
SM: Was he white or black?
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ST: Black. Very handsome man. And we were going to act like little ladies and gentlemen
coming in there. And, see, that’s what our parents always told us, “Don’t be boisterous on
the street.” Certain things. And, so, we were going. And I was always a tomboy. And I
had the same kind of jacket the guys had, and caps then. And I had real long hair. And I
would put it up under my cap. And Mr. Darnell would say, “Boy, take that cap off.” But
he knew. And when you’re young you think they don’t know, that they forget. So, we
would go through that. But we would go there armed with raw eggs. And that’s why it
was so much fun, see? And we would go in and this door made an awful squeaking
sound. And, of course, we would go in and we would throw those eggs down on the
white kids.
SM: Was this like a children’s—
ST: Yes, Circle K.
SM: Mostly all kids there?
ST: Yes, kids, kids. And they would have a movie. And, then, they would have chapters of a
movie. And you’d get the next chapter of the movie and get the regular movie. And
sometimes it was a talent show. It was a stage and a talent show.
SM: Up to no good.
ST: [laughter] And, so, I was telling Edward’s parents about this.
SM: Edward is your husband?
ST: Yes. And he said, “Sandra was that you up there throwing down those eggs?” And he
said, “I knew to sit under the overhang.” But we never got caught, because we knew
when that door was opening. And the little halos were all out. And we were just little
angels then. See, we would leave there and go to the Palace where we were supposed to
be going. But that was so much fun. I think my parents didn’t know that I was going to
Circle K down there. And you know they did. But when you’re young, you think you’re
getting away.
SM: Because they probably gave you the money to go to two movies.
ST: Sure. I had—either I saved it or my grandparents had given me some more. You know
how that is.
SM: Did your husband go to—I don’t know if it was Greensboro [Senior] High School, then,
or was it Grimsley, or did he go—
ST: Yes, it was—yes, it was Greensboro.
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SM: They changed it. I think it was Greensboro.
ST: But they moved. He didn’t stay there.
SM: Oh, okay. They—I think she went to Greenville, [North Carolina] to open a store. Then
came here to Raleigh [North Carolina]. He went to high school here in Raleigh. I met him
at work here, in Raleigh. I met him at work, here. When I graduated I went to Richmond
[Virginia], and I worked at Medical College of Virginia in Richmond. And, then, got
married that December. And, of course, when I got married my ex-husband was in the
military. He had a commission and was at Fort Knox, [Kentucky]. And, then, he was at
Fort Knox for just a few months. And, then, he moved to Fort Bragg, [North Carolina]. I
left Richmond then and came to Fort Bragg to live. Then he got orders for Korea [and] I
came back to Greensboro.
SM: So, you actually went to Korea or—
ST: No.
SM: Or you went to Greensboro—
ST: He did. I went to Greensboro. My daughter was born while he was in Korea. And, then, I
went to work at Moses Cone [Hospital]. So, I worked at Moses Cone for almost twelve
years.
Humana Hospital [was] built brand new there. Now, it’s the Women’s Hospital.
Cone has bought everything around there. Humana Hospital was a 100-bed surgical
hospital. And, of course, they had intensive care and emergency room. So, I went there
before [it] ever opened because that hospital was built for all RN [registered nurse] staff.
And I always said, “If I was rich and I could build my own hospital, I would have an all
RN staff.” I think nurses should nurse. And I thought, this is the cat’s meow. So, of
course, I was hired. And I went there when we were still putting down carpet and
everything. It was a wonderful experience starting brand new in a hospital where you had
to put everything together pretty much.
SM: And what approximate year was this?
ST: 1977.
SM: Okay.
ST: And, so, I started there, and it was just so neat. You’d have your name of your door of
your patients. And the doctors would know. See, you got that communication with the
physicians. It was just a two-floor hospital. It was open one floor with surgical patients.
And we worked twelve-hour shifts, seven days on, seven days off. And—
SM: Wow, I bet you were tired at the end of that.
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ST: No, it really wasn’t. It was so nice.
SM: How long did you work there?
ST: I worked there three and a half years, almost four years. I guess it was three months they
decided to open the second floor. So, I went up there to run that floor. So, to make a long
story short, I ended up in management which is what I really didn’t want. See, my whole
idea was primary nursing care and I ended up in management. Then I decided I didn’t
like this. I’m going back to Cone Hospital. So, at that time they had hired a male director
of nursing. So, I went to talk to him. He said I had to meet you, because when I went to
Moses Cone to work I told them I’d work anywhere except peds [pediatrics]. I didn’t like
[sick] children. And that came from my experience in Norfolk. We did our practicum at
an all-children’s hospital. And, see, that’s why it was good, because we had good
affiliations. And you had kids there in isolation. And you didn’t know what they had,
some syndrome, and all broken out. And I’m going, “Ooh.” And, then, they want to touch
you.
But the funny thing then at State Boards everything was in either surgical or
pediatrics or whatever, or psych. And peds was my highest score. [laughing]
SM: I guess you got good training, then.
ST: But, anyway, then they would pull you from one floor to the other. And they pulled me to
go to peds. And I said, “I’m not going.” I told them when I went there that I wasn’t going
to work at peds. And I’d just go home and come back the next day. And I would do this. I
said, “I’m not doing that. I’m not going there.” And he said, “I don’t know why they
didn’t fire you.” This is what he said. I said, “Because I’m good.” I said the doctors knew
I’m good. And, so, he said, “I’ll hire you tomorrow.” He said, “But,” he said, “When you
make a change, always make sure it benefits you.” So, what he was telling me is I needed
that management experience, because it wasn’t like supervising. It was management. You
manage your budget. You managed everything. And that’s what I didn’t like about it. I
said, “I’m not an accountant. I’m a nurse.” But it was excellent experience. It really was.
My experience at Woman’s College at that Human Hospital, it was all great experience.
So, anyway, that was my experience with nursing.
I came here, [to Raleigh state government,] to work. I read an ad for nurse
consultant here and that’s how I ended up here in Raleigh in ’82. And that’s where I met
my husband.
I worked for Health and Human Services Division. Then it was called the
Division of Facility Services. They changed that name a couple of years ago. I’ve been
retired almost six years.
SM: When did you get divorced?
ST: Oh, I got divorced when my daughter was four years old.
SM: When was she born?
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ST: In ’65.
SM: Oh, okay. So, how long were you married?
ST: Four years.
SM: Four years. Did he ever serve in Vietnam?
ST: He just transported stuff to Vietnam. He was never in combat.
SM: A post-traumatic stress thing?
ST: I came here in ’82 [to] the Division of the Facility Services. They have everything to do
with healthcare facilities from inception. Then, you have the federal and state survey
teams that survey all the healthcare facilities, hospitals, nursing homes, abortion clinics,
everything that’s licensed and certified. And I was manager of complaints branch. I had
twenty-one nurses that investigated complaints.
SM: From patients or from nurses? Complaints from patients?
ST: Basically, complaints from the public, from ombudsmen, from doctors, lawyers, Indian
chiefs, whomever. I mean really, from patients themselves, you know, family members.
SM: So, when did you actually meet [your husband]?
ST: Then.
SM: You met him in ’82?
ST: Yes.
SM: Wow.
ST: Yes, yes.
SM: That’s an interesting story.
ST: And we really dated, I guess, started dating about ’85, something like that. I guess
committed to each other at that time. But I was busy, you know, and he was busy. He left
the division and managed an office of architects. Then, he came back to the state. He
retired from the state.
SM: Well, I did want to ask you something—because I don’t think I had it on the recorder.
You were talking about The Corner.
ST: Yes.
16
SM: I don’t actually even know—I’ve heard—
ST: The Corner—
SM: Somebody mentioned that. Janet may have mentioned it. I don’t know. Is it a restaurant?
Is it a café?
ST: It was everything down there.
SM: Okay.
ST: Everything down there. It’s a theater.
SM: And this was like on Tate Street or?
ST: Yes.
SM: And it’s just like an area?
ST: An area—
SM: Okay.
ST: —that’s called The Corner.
SM: It’s called The Corner?
ST: Yes, it’s stores, little shops, restaurants, I guess pizza joints, a movie theater. And, of
course, we couldn’t go in the theater, because it’s one story. So, yes, that’s where they
made their money from the students, of course. So, it was very easy—when they
boycotted. I don’t think it last but about two weeks or so.
SM: And you said the restaurants, you could go in?
ST: Oh, yes.
SM: But you would not be served?
ST: Yes, we’d sit down.
SM: Would they serve at the take out window or anything?
ST: We would just get up and leave. Just strictly a restaurant, sit-down restaurant. And I don’t
know the girls I was with. It had to have been those that I’ve known. I mean that I hung
out with or something. But, you know, I don’t know. But they said, “Let’s go to the
17
restaurant.” And we knew what was going to happen. So, we would go. And they were
making a statement. And I knew they were. And, so, all of that built up to the boycott of
course.
SM: What about Yum-Yum’s [Better Hot Dogs and Ice Cream]?
ST: Yum-Yum’s was never segregated. Never segregated.
SM: So, you could sit down, eat there?
ST: Yes. I mean as a child we went to Yum-Yum’s.
SM: Really? Because it has been there a very long time.
ST: Yes?
SM: It’s been there a very, very long time.
ST: Forever. I mean I was a kid, young going to Yum-Yum.
SM: That’s interesting. What about the dining halls? Because it’s on campus. So, technically,
it should have been integrated?
ST: It was.
SM: Would people sit together?
ST: Oh, sure, like I said the only thing that segregated us on campus was the dormitory.
SM: And that was more the administration—
ST: Yes.
SM: —doing that?
ST: Yes. That’s the only thing that segregated us—I don’t even remember the name of the
hall that they had little rooms you could go in and listen to recordings.
SM: Elliott. Elliott Hall, yes.
ST: Thank you. You know, we would date over there. That’s where you take your date. You
know, we would sit there in the parlor for a while. But we could go to Elliott Hall and
listen to music or whatever. And that’s where they always had the dances there.
SM: And the dances—both white and black?
18
ST: Yes.
SM: Could go?
ST: Yes.
SM: Even black men from A&T?
ST: Yes, sure. They were our dates. My ex-husband and Janet’s, you know, Janet is a widow.
SM: And did you ever do anything at A&T’s campus? Were you guys ever included in things
that happened over there?
ST: We didn’t have time. Weekends was the only time we had that at least we could go to a
movie, or about as far as we went was Elliott Hall and the Yum-Yum.
SM: So, you guys talked about going to the Carolina Theater as a child, but as a college
student you guys didn’t venture downtown as much?
ST: No.
SM: You stayed on campus?
ST: It was still segregated until—I don’t know. Maybe about ’62, so, ’63. I don’t know. I
don’t remember. Because I wasn’t there. I don’t even remember in Norfolk, [Virginia]
how it was. Because that’s a big naval town, and I don’t think things were so segregated
there because of the military.
SM: What kind of school was Norfolk? Was it a historically black college or—
ST: Oh, yes, yes.
SM: So, you went from a pretty much all-white school to a historically—
ST: All black.
SM: —black college?
ST: There were no white students there.
SM: What was that—you were seeking that kind of, you said, that kind of environment?
ST: Yes. It was what I was comfortable in. I could excel there.
SM: And did you tell people about your experience at Woman’s College when you got to
Norfolk?
19
ST: Well, it is so funny. I think that because I took some of the personal, physical things that
had rubbed off on me to Norfolk. You know, the clothes that we wore there were
different. I went there wearing [Bass] Weejun loafers. They were wearing heels and
stockings. Still that black thing that you dress, you see? At Woman’s College, of course,
you were comfortable. You would go to the dining room with rollers in your hair.
SM: Because there were no men.
ST: No men. So, of course, things were very different. They were looking at me like, those
shoes and pleated skirts that we wore then. So, I guess my appearance—they knew that I
had come from a different environment.
SM: Well, what kind of things would you do at Woman’s College for fun since you didn’t
want to go downtown or didn’t have time?
ST: Well, we did. Like I said—
SM: Dates and stuff, but—
ST: Yes.
SM: What other kind of things?
ST: Our activities, I guess, pretty much were in Elliott Hall. And, of course, being from
Greensboro and dating. Of course, my ex-husband is from Greensboro and his family is
there and my family is there, so on the weekends I could leave campus. Then I could
check out to go home. And, then, we could go wherever we wanted to go. See, then, you
had to have permission to go. You couldn’t just leave campus, then.
SM: Wow.
ST: Really.
SM: How things have changed!
ST: Really. You had to sign out to where it had been approved for you to go. For even if I
would go home with my roommate on the weekend. My parents would have approved
that.
SM: Would you go to church where you grew up going to church?
ST: Yes, I’m Lutheran.
SM: And you would leave campus to go to church?
20
ST: Yes. I don’t think I ever went to church on campus. I don’t think I was on campus on the
weekends after—especially the second semester. The first semester maybe pretty much.
But the second semester I think we got a little more freedom. And, I mean I’d go home
every weekend and do whatever we did on the weekends. So, it was no activity on
campus for me unless they had something in the hall or whatever.
SM: You said Woman’s College wasn’t what you were looking for in college, or what you
wanted—
ST: Well, I think initially it was. After being there for a while, it’s just like I guess you
leaving home and you get homesickness.
SM: You so—a different kind of homesickness, because, obviously, you were close to home?
ST: Yes, I’m just saying—
SM: As far as—
ST: —that feeling though. You know, you were there. And it was okay. But it was something
missing, you know?
SM: Did your friends support you transferring, or were they sad to see you leave? Did they try
to talk you out of it?
ST: I don’t know. The thing about me then and now is I don’t need consent. I don’t need
approval much. I’ve always been very independent. My parents kind of raised me that
way to make decisions. I raised my daughter that way. When I came here to work in ’82
my daughter was a junior in high school in Greensboro. And I had come down in January
of ’82, and she was still in school, of course. Well, I have two sisters. My youngest sister
moved into my place to take care of Lisa [Tatum] until she finished that year of school.
So, she came down that summer. She was just being negative to show me [that she] did
not like coming here. Was not going to be here.
But, anyway, so, we went out and decided what school she’s going to go to—
well, I have friends in Greensboro that are principals. And they said Millbrook [High
School] would be the best high school. So, we decided to live this side of Spring Forest
Street. And we went and looked at this really nice apartment. We moved in, and she got
registered in Millbrook. And, then, [we had] been there a week and I just felt like I
needed to go home. So, I told my coworkers, I said, “I’m going to leave a little early
today.” And went home, and she had left. There was a letter on her bedroom door saying
that she was miserable here, that she needed to be at home and school with her friends.
She wanted to graduate with her friends. And, of course, she was the only grandchild.
That’s another thing. She didn’t make that decision all by herself.
SM: She had a free place to stay.
21
ST: That’s right. And, so, she had moved everything out. Her television, everything, was
gone. One of her older friends had come down and driven her to Greensboro. And my
parents. So, then it kind of hurt my feelings a little bit. But I decided that’s the way I
raised her: do what’s best for you and not me, not anybody else. And that’s what she did.
It was best for her.
SM: Her time to move—
ST: She’s still in Greensboro. Not going to leave Greensboro. She married David, who was a
Marine. And he had to get out of the Marines, because she wasn’t going overseas
anywhere.
SM: That’s funny. And you said earlier you have two sisters.
ST: Yes.
SM: And you said one of them went to Woman’s College, or both of them did?
ST: One, Charlotte [Byrd]. Charlotte graduated, I think, it was ’73.
SM: She graduated—
ST: ’73. I think.
SM: What about your other sister?
ST: Other sister worked with postal service all her life. I think she will be retiring in two
years. They’re much younger than me. Renee [Byrd] is nine and a half years younger
than me. Valerie [Byrd] is sixteen years younger than me.
SM: Wow.
ST: So, something like that.
SM: And your sister, Charlotte, did she—did your experience not have any weight on her
going to Woman’s College?
ST: I never discussed my experience. It’s just something that I was going to do. And I was
going to transfer, and that was it. And, you know, with my parents that was okay if that’s
what I wanted to do. And like I said, that’s the way, that’s kind of the way I was raised.
And very impatient, I’m so impatient. My granddaddy used to tell me. He always called
me Gal, not by my name, but always Gal. I loved him.
SM: So, Gail or Gal?
ST: Gal.
22
SM: Gal.
ST: Gal. And he always told me I was so impatient. I want it now. I’m going to do it now.
This is what I am going to do. So, that’s just what I was going to do. So, I did.
SM: When you were at Woman’s College, do you remember any of the professors you had?
ST: Any what?
SM: Any professors that you had?
ST: I really don’t.
SM: Any of the faculty, or staff or deans?
ST: At least they didn’t—they didn’t leave any impression, positive or negative. I don’t
know. I don’t remember.
I don’t remember any professors at Norfolk. I don’t remember their names. I
remember one that taught labor and delivery that—and she always talked [with high-pitched
voice]. “This is the way you are supposed to treat the mamas.” And I wasn’t too
fond of labor and delivery either. But I remember her because of the way she talked.
SM: Right.
ST: I should remember the dean, because she told me—another thing I make decisions about
I do whether it was right or not. The uniforms are supposed to be so many inches from
the floor or whatever. And I had them cut off and hemmed. But I do things like that.
SM: Just to be an individual?
ST: Well, yes.
SM: You say you stay in touch with Janet and Marian.
ST: Yes, I saw Marian just last year. I haven’t seen her in a year. So, we had our fiftieth high
school reunion last year. So, I saw both of them last year. I see Francine more than
Marian, and probably hear from her more.
SM: Does Francine still live in Greensboro?
ST: Yes, she works at Dudley.
SM: Oh okay, yes. I do remember her name now, yes. I don’t know if we have her on our list
or not, we are still trying to compile the list, because it’s still a work in progress trying to
23
find out all the students. I remember she was one for whatever reason was not on that
original [list]. I remember Marian telling me she still works at Dudley.
ST: Yes.
SM: And you say you still have these high school breakfasts or whatever?
ST: Yes.
SM: With Janet, do you still stay in touch, because she didn’t go to high school with you,
obviously?
ST: No, Janet is in Greensboro, of course. And when I’m in Greensboro I always
communicate with her or go by to see her. She lives a few blocks from my daughter. And
we’ve always been close friends. Of course, Janet’s kids are Lisa’s age, my daughter’s
age. One is—I think Sharon [Gordon], Sharon and Lisa are the same age. Her other
daughter is younger. Joanie [Gordon].
But, yes, Janet and I have been friends forever, ever since college. And we’ve
kind of kept up, you know, with, of course, I divorced. I had, you know, ended a
marriage. And, of course, her husband died. And that was difficult, very difficult for her.
And, of course, you know I was there with her supporting her through everything. She’s
got one daughter that had scoliosis and had to have surgery. And then her youngest
daughter is a diabetic, childhood diabetic. And, so, you know, I’ve known all of that,
been involved with her through her life. And we’ve just been very close friends.
SM: And was she your roommate, did you say that?
ST: First year.
SM: First year. I remember. I think she told me a story about you that involved cigarettes.
ST: Yes. I taught her to smoke.
SM: I don’t see you as a smoker.
ST: I did. I don’t know. I quit so long ago, but that was cute then. My ex-husband taught me
to smoke. See, in high school we couldn’t smoke on campus. And there was an area
there, wooded area, and I was a patrol. So, I could—
SM: She said your mother worked at [P.] Lorillard and you got cigarettes for free.
ST: My mom retired from P. Lorillard. That’s what sent me to school, Lorillard.
SM: Really. She said that she can remember the first day you asked her if she smoked
cigarettes and she said, “No,” but then she quickly learned.
24
ST: Yes, I’m glad I had sense enough to stop.
SM: Especially being a nurse.
ST: Nurses smoke, though. I smoked—I stopped smoking when I was about thirty-three years
old. Never was a heavy smoker, you know? But we would go in at Moses Cone report in
the lounge. Everybody is lighting up a cigarette. You know, nurses smoked. Doctors
smoked.
SM: Wow.
ST: You know? But I think now they’ve learned that’s not the thing to do. But I just quit. Dr.
Hunt was a surgeon— it was the ACC [Atlantic Coast Conference Basketball]
Tournament, and I was telling him. A cloud of cigarette smoke hanging over the court.
And I thought, “Now, that’s just awful.” And I said, “And I smoke.” And he said, “And
you better quit it,” just like that. And that’s the way he said it. And I quit. You know, just
quit, just like that. But, again, when I decide I’m going to do something, I’m going to do
it. So, I did. But it’s funny how certain people have an effect on you, and you don’t know
why, you know? But he did.
SM: And who did you say your roommate was your sophomore year?
ST: Madeline.
SM: Madeline.
ST: Madeline left after that year and went to New York. And I kept in touch with her, I don’t
know, for a couple of years or so. And, then, she got married. And, then, one time I called
and he answered the phone and said, “She’s not here anymore.” And, “Where is she?”
“She’s just not here anymore.” And that’s all I’ve known. And she was from Charlotte
[North Carolina]. She had an aunt. Her mother died. Her mother was a school teacher,
and I think she died, had a heart attack or something at school. Madeline was in school
where her mother taught. Something was just a very traumatic experience for her. And
her grandmother raised her and was very strict. And Madeline didn’t get to go to
dances—she was excellent seamstress. She made clothes for students, and that’s how she
would earn spending money. Because all she got was her tuition and stuff from her
grandmother and whatever. Her grandmother was in charge of whatever her mother left,
you know? And was just real tough on Madeline. And she made all of her clothes and
everything and really, really nice stuff. And that was her major, I guess, whatever it was
with tailoring. But I really liked Madeline, and I hate I lost contact. That’s one thing that I
hate that bothers me when I lose contact with people I care about. And we never could
find out what became of her. And you know, it would be pretty easy to find me because I
kept my name. Tatum is my married name. My husband is Williams.
SM: Oh.
25
ST: Williams.
SM: Oh, okay.
ST: So, I kept my name for that reason. I kept Tatum, because that’s what everybody knew
me as. And, especially, we got married before I retired from working. And the providers,
you know, hospital administrators and everybody knew me by Tatum, and I thought it
would be so confusing for that short period of time.
SM: Silly to change that late.
ST: And it didn’t bother Edward. Edward tells people, he said, “Well, she let me keep my
name.” [laughing] He’s funny.
SM: That is funny. Well, I guess I really just want to know you have a unique situation with
Woman’s College in the fact that you left. What do you want people to know about your
experience there?
ST: Well, my experience there both academically, socially, intellectually [was] very positive.
I think it made a very positive effect on my outcome, personally. I think that because of
that experience it made me better able to communicate with different people from all
walks of life. I don’t think I meet a stranger, really. My mom used to say I’d talk to a
signpost, you know? But I think that that contributed to my personality.
SM: You say that you were—it was a positive—your school experience was positive?
ST: Yes.
SM: Would you say that your social experience was not?
ST: I think my social experience there was not a good experience. Extracurricular things were
not really available, really. If they were, we were not aware of them. I don’t think any of
those other girls that you talked to found if they were interested in anything
extracurricular, any activities, on campus that I know of. I don’t know of anything that
they were involved with those first two years. Now, I don’t know about the last two
years. It may have been more open. I don’t know. Like I said, really on the weekends I
wasn’t there.
SM: It was just the school for you?
ST: Yes, Greensboro being home and my territory, I was comfortable.
SM: I guess you can’t say it was totally negative—
ST: No.
26
SM: —because you got some lifelong friends out of that.
ST: No, no, no, no. It was not negative at all. It’s just that I wanted to do something different.
SM: You wanted something more I guess?
ST: Yes.
SM: Well, I don’t have any more things to ask you. I think we’ve covered a lot. And I really
appreciate you sharing your story, because we wanted to know what everyone felt. I
mean even if it’s something that doesn’t shine UNCG or Woman’s College in the best
light. No one is now that was there in 1960, 1962. So, we want to know all kinds of
experiences.
ST: No. Like I said my concern was why wait so long to do this?
SM: And that’s the—
ST: And I just think it’s—and who are these people in here, these pictures of these people?
SM: Those are the first two black students—oh, I don’t know about those. I haven’t gotten this
far in time. Because these look like they’re from the later ’60s, maybe early ’70s.
ST: Yes.
SM: We’re trying to work from the start up. So, I know the front is Bettye Tillman and
JoAnne Smart who were the first two black students. But the other ones I haven’t found
out yet.
ST: So, they were instigating all of this?
SM: Well, Bettye Tillman passed away not too long after she graduated. I think in her thirties.
But JoAnne Smart, I think that’s her right there, she’s—
ST: I didn’t know her.
SM: Yes, and there’s actually—Marian was telling me one of the reasons she decided she
wanted to go to Woman’s College is JoAnne Smart was a student teacher in her class at
Dudley.
ST: Oh.
SM: And she thought she was so sophisticated, and she loved her lipstick. And she just
thought if that’s what it’s like at Woman’s College, then I want to be a part of it. So,
that’s a great story that I am sure that JoAnne Smart would love to hear that someone’s
lipstick shade influenced them to go to Woman’s College. But she’s kind of the person
27
that’s behind it. And, then, we also have support. I don’t know why it took so—that’s
some of the story of anything. Why did it take fifty years for the Woolworth’s to finally
open up? I guess we—history isn’t history until we’ve had time. I mean, I don’t know.
It’s—what we lose in history is losing all this time. Because we’ve had people who have
passed away, people are sick and unable to be interviewed now. And we’ve lost that
story.
ST: Another thing we’re talking about us being in the ’60s and saying how I just felt like as a
student, nothing to do with race, or whatever. Once, I guess it became co-ed, and, of
course, getting more students there of color, or whatever, that they started segregating
themselves, the black chorus, the black this, that, and the other. And that was so removed
from when I was there.
SM: Right.
ST: I saw that happening, and it really bothered me that it was so different from what I was
used to. But I guess—there was enough of them there that they could group together.
[Recorder turned off]
[End of interview]