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UNCG CENTENNIAL ORAL HISTORY PROJECT COLLECTION
INTERVIEWEE: Rolf A. Sander
INTERVIEWER: Linda Danford
DATE: December 14, 1990
LD: Can you tell me when you came to UNCG [The University of North Carolina at Greensboro]?
RS: I came here in 1967—yes, in August, I started here, as professor of voice and director of opera.
LD: Had there been opera performed here before?
RS: Yes. Yes. The opera director who was here before left. He left for Columbus, Ohio.
LD: Do you remember his name?
RS: I should know. I can't remember this moment.
LD: Well, if it comes back to you—
RS: It will come back, perhaps, a little later.
LD: And how did you find the department when you came? How large was it and—?
RS: It was much smaller. The dean, Dr. [Lawrence] Hart, had come here just a year before, and he knew me from Colorado, so he wanted me here. [chuckles] I wasn't planning to leave Colorado, but he made it very attractive, so I came here. Not looking, really, for a job. And I think I made the right decision. You never know because you don't know what would have happened if I had stayed in Colorado, so I never question things like that.
LD: How many students, how many voice students did you have when you first came?
RS: I had always about ten voice students, private students, plus opera program. And it stayed that way during the ten years I taught here.
LD: And you—how many opera productions did you put on during the year?
RS: We did a workshop production in November and a spring opera, a major production.
LD: Every spring. 2
RS: And it's still that way. It didn't change.
LD: And you were here until—when did you retire?
RS: Seventy-seven. Just ten years.
LD: Seventy-seven. Ten years. What productions—tell me some of the productions? What was your first one?
RS: The first one was, wait a minute, Magic Flute. Magic Flute was the first one. The most challenging production was Cyrano De Bergerac, which was a world premiere of Jack Jarrett's [professor of music] opera. He was on our faculty. That was quite a production.
LD: Do you remember when—what year that was?
RS: That must have been in '72, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, '72, that's correct.
LD: Did you have people coming in from other places to review it and to see it?
RS: No. Not that I knew. No, I don't think so. Strangely enough, I had done a world premiere of the opera Cyrano De Bergerac in Colorado, as well, by another composer. [laughs] That was Cecil Effinger, who was on the faculty in Colorado. I think I'm the only opera director in the world who directed two world premieres of Cyrano De Bergerac. [laughs]
LD: Quite possibly. What was the last production in 1977?
RS: Ha! What was the last one? De Fledermaus.
LD: I think that's the one I saw. That was the first year we were here, and we saw that.
RS: Yes? Your first year here? Yes, that was the last one.
LD: Who were some—do you remember any of the names of any of the students, outstanding students you had? UNCG students, it seems to me, have done very well in the Metropolitan [Opera, New York City] contests over the years.
RS: Yes. Yes. I had several very, very good ones. I cannot remember right now who was really outstanding from here. I'm not very good with names.
LD: Was Bob Overman [did not graduate] a student of yours?
RS: I had him in some operas. He was not my voice student.
LD: How many other professors of voice did UNCG have?
RS: Well, there were—I have to count. Five. 3
LD: About five?
RS: Yes.
LD: And each of you had about ten students?
RS: No. The other teachers had more students because they didn't have the opera program. So as a voice teacher was only half my load.
LD: So Dean Hart really brought you here for the opera?
RS: He brought me here for the opera.
LD: What—how did the department—did things change at all in the department in the ten years you were there?
RS: Oh, it grew. It grew. The faculty grew, and the student body grew tremendously. And in the meantime, again, I mean, the department is much, much larger now than in '77 as I left.
LD: Was it just numbers of students or did they branch out into other areas of music education?
RS: They got a doctorate program in the meantime. Doctorate of Musical Arts, which we did not have in '77. I think that was a major development academically.
LD: Do you think it's important to have a doctoral program?
RS: Yes. Oh, yes. It attracts mature students; particularly in voice it's very important because when you get your bachelor degree you're about twenty-two; the voice is not really developed yet, physically. So a doctoral program—master and doctoral program is very important if you want to develop a good opera program.
LD: Where were most of your voice students going when they graduated? Were they going into professional careers or were they going into education?
RS: Several—most went into education. Several went on for the master's and then into—tried the profession. Sometimes it worked. They stayed in the profession for a few years, and then they looked for university jobs. [chuckling]
LD: It's very difficult to be successful, is it not?
RS: Yes. It is very difficult.
LD: What else were you involved in besides voice at UNCG? Did you—?
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RS: Well, I was on several committees, of course, the usual thing. More and more committees every year. I was ready to retire. The committees were more work than the teaching after a while, but you know that. [laughs]
LD: I've heard a lot of people say that. What was—Hart was the dean when you came?
RS: Yes. Yes.
LD: And then who succeeded him?
RS: Huh, who was the next one? He was only here for a short time. Now I cannot remember the name. I think he was only here—Blocker. [Robert] Blocker. He was here for two years, if I'm not mistaken. And then [Dean Arthur] Tollefson came.
LD: Tollefson. So he's been here for—?
RS: Yes. Quite a while. It must be about seven or eight years. No. It's longer, longer. It will be in May, fourteen years. I can't believe it. [both laugh] Since I retired. Time goes by so quickly.
LD: Do you keep up with productions on campus since you retired?
RS: Oh, yes. I go when I'm in town. I go every year to the spring opera. Last April, Cosi Von Tutti was very, very good. I was very, very pleased with that production.
LD: What about other opera in this area? Have you been involved in other productions outside of UNCG?
RS: Yes. I directed the first production of the Greensboro Opera. It was La Traviata. But I didn't get along very well with these people, so—
LD: With the people in the opera guild?
RS: On the board or a guild, however you want to call it. And I didn't want to do it again. It's not my kind of work.
LD: What is different about working with that kind of production and working with one at UNCG?
RS: There I was—before I started teaching, I was a professional opera singer, so I was a real pro for years and years, and as I started teaching, I continued this kind of work. But these smaller opera companies are done in a very dilettantish way, I would say. Not enough to hurt sometimes what comes together, and you come from here and you come from there, and that's it about what we can do. And I don't like that. I was never used to that.
LD: Because you're bringing visiting principals?
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RS: Yes. You bring—the leading roles come from the outside. And they come for three or four days. Perhaps you have a few days before to work with the chorus, but still, you just throw it together. Let's call it that way. You don't work it out.
LD: What about the facility at UNCG? Did you produce your operas always in Aycock Auditorium?
RS: No. Most of the time, in Taylor [Theatre], until they had to close it. There was something wrong with the building, and we couldn't do it anymore. Then we moved over to Aycock. What really was a pity because Taylor is, was much better.
LD: Because of size is more conducive to small operas?
RS: Yes. The size of the stage is better. And it has an orchestra pit, but Aycock does not have. So the orchestra sits on the same level as the audience. That's acoustically, not too good.
LD: In Aycock, you mean?
RS: In Aycock.
LD: It's the same level as the audience.
RS: Taylor has a real orchestra pit. So it was easier working there. But still, as I said, this production of Cosi last spring was very good, and I enjoyed it very, very much.
LD: Who is in charge of the opera productions now?
RS: Mr. [Richard] Estes.
LD: I don't think I know him.
RS: No. He's on the voice faculty too.
LD: Who was it who produced The Consul? Did you go to see that? Do you remember?
RS: No. No. I wasn't in town at that time. No. That concert I didn't see.
LD: It must have been about ten or eleven years ago.
RS: Yes. Now that was the first production after I'd left. That would be thirteen years this spring. Yes. That was Arvid Knutsen's [voice faculty] first production. He succeeded me.
LD: Right. And now Estes does them?
RS: Yes. Cosi was his first production here. Knutsen had left. First he was on a leave of absence, and then he didn't come back. [chuckles] 6
LD: What—tell me about your professional career. What kind of roles did you sing?
RS: Oh, I was a tenor, and I sang everything you can imagine in about—well, I suppose about twenty-five years. I sang before I started teaching, mostly in Europe, mostly in Switzerland. I was eight years in St. Gallen, and eight years in Zurich, then five years in Wiesbaden, Germany. Then from there, I came to Santa Fe [New Mexico] Opera. Quite a jump.
LD: Quite a change, geographically and climatically.
RS: Climatically, yes. But I loved Santa Fe, and I still go back, more or less every year, to see some productions. And I sang with Santa Fe for five summers. And in the meantime, I looked around for a university job and found one. My first one was in Oklahoma. Oklahoma City University for one year. Then two years in Kansas, and then I got the job in Colorado, Colorado University [Editor's note: University of Colorado] in Boulder, and I thought that's the end of my career here. I stayed until Dr. Hart took me away.
LD: Well, we're glad that you came to Greensboro.
RS: Oh, thank you.
LD: Is it necessary nowadays for singers to specialize a lot when they're becoming professional, or is it better for them to be—?
RS: It is better if you don't specialize too much, that you really can sing all kind of roles. Of course, within your tenor range or baritone or whatever it is.
LD: What else—when a student becomes a voice student at UNCG, what other musical training does that person need? Do they need—do they take an instrument normally, or is that not common?
RS: They take usually, class piano. But it is important for them that they can play a little bit. And, of course. they get the complete musical education theory, how many and what—everything involved. It's as it is with any other instrument.
LD: Do they have to take—do they take foreign language?
RS: Voice majors have to take two foreign languages.
LD: And they don't get that specially in the department? They have to take it in the foreign language department?
RS: They go to the language department.
LD: Is that for pronunciation?
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RS: No. Really, it's more than only pronunciations. They have to learn the basics of the language. What is very, very important, particularly in this country because most operas are done in the original language. So if you have no idea what it means, it's not a very good performance. [chuckling] So you should know language. You have to know languages.
LD: And as a director, you expect your singers to know their roles?
RS: Yes. Of course, here in the university, we have done everything in English. To do it in original language is a little too complicated on a school level. But in professional life, here in the US most companies do everything in original language.
LD: What do you think of the subtitles or the supertitles?
RS: I hate it.
LD: You don't like it?
RS: They are so distracting. I can't stand it. I'm too old for that.
LD: They're too hard for you.
RS: It's so distracting because even if you know the language, you look up to that lines all the time. The same with subtitles in a movie. Even if the movie's in a language I know, I still read that stuff, and it's distracting.
LD: I don't like subtitles at all.
RS: No.
LD: And it's very difficult to get—to rent movies, for instance, that are not dubbed. I mean, don't have subtitles. Did you feel that the university was supportive of the opera program?
RS: Oh, yes. Yes. I got a lot of support, particularly from the drama department, who did the technical aspect of the production.
LD: Which would include your costumes, and your—?
RS: Costumes, set design, set building and so on.
LD: So this was an important production for them every spring as well then? Must have been.
RS: Oh, yes. There was—Dr. [Herman] Middleton was the head of the department at that time, and he was very supportive. I worked with him very, very well.
LD: And then the orchestra would be under the direction of—? 8
RS: Of the conductor from the music school.
LD: But that would not be done by a student? That would have been a faculty member?
RS: Yes, faculty member. And for drama too, the costumes and set designs, that was faculty members.
LD: And there would be sufficient funds were always available for—?
RS: Oh, well, we always had problems, but that's a part of the job. But we managed.
LD: What do you consider the most rewarding aspects of teaching?
RS: The most important, that students improve. Perhaps they have a professional career. That is very rewarding. You can say, "My student is singing there in Europe or there in Europe."
LD: Did you encourage students to go to Europe?
RS: Yes.
LD: That's important for an opera career, isn't it?
RS: Very much so. I wouldn't say it's so important, but the chances are so much bigger. A town like Greensboro that has a population of close to two hundred thousand, they have an all-year-round opera, night for night. Even smaller towns, with about a hundred thousand, they have their opera house.
LD: So there are just many more jobs?
RS: Yes.
LD: And they are willing to accept American singers?
RS: There are many, many American singers, if they are good enough.
LD: So it's a question of experience?
RS: Question of experience and quality. No, I always encouraged my students if I was convinced they could have a professional career. I didn't tell them, "Yes, you are ready for the Metropolitan," if they are not ready for anything, which some voice teachers do.
LD: Over-encourage their students?
RS: Over-encourage. I would say, out of wrong judgment. They get so involved with the students that they don't hear it, really, anymore. They think, "Oh, that's so great." No, it 9
isn't.
LD: So it's hard to maintain that objectivity?
RS: Yes. It's very, very hard to keep that certain distance and say, "Yes. This voice is really good." "She or he, they can make it."
LD: Do you think it's difficult when you're in a place like Greensboro that is far away from New York or Chicago or someplace not really—
RS: No.
LD: You didn't feel isolated from the music world?
RS: No. No. No, I don't think you are really isolated. There's a lot going on here in this town or in the whole Triad, if you include Winston Salem, High Point. There's a lot going on. There's a lot of cultural life. It's not that you're completely isolated. Unfortunately, that's true—I mean, the real center is New York City. There isn't anything else like it. So if you want a professional career in this country, you have to live in New York City. There is no other way. Even if you want to sing in Santa Fe, you get hired in New York.
LD: Oh, really? Did you have to go to New York periodically to make contacts and—
RS: No. I made the contacts, even from Europe—
LD: How did you get—?
RS: By recommendation.
LD: To Santa Fe.
RS: Santa Fe, and then I met with John Crosby, who is the general manager. I met him in New York City a few days after I had arrived. And I never auditioned for it. I just got hired.
LD: Is there quite a network of people who know people who know people in opera?
RS: Yes, it's a small world, I would say.
LD: So a lot goes on by word of mouth recommendations?
RS: Yes. Yes. You know that one, and you know he's singing there, and he is singing there. You know that. As I said, it's a very small world, the music world. You always meet the same people.
LD: Were your students very emotional? Are opera students different from other music students? 10
RS: Yes. No. Not different from other—I think music students are emotional. It's a part of the job. If you don't put yourself into the music, it's very uninteresting. It just has to be that way.
LD: Did that create problems for you as a professor?
RS: Sometimes, yes. Yes. It can be difficult. Sometimes you get a student who was a big star in the church of the small town, and then she comes to UNCG or to any other school and isn't as good as she thought. And a lot of tears in my office for that reason because I always was very outspoken. And I said, "No, this is not good enough. You have to improve tremendously." "Yes, but at home in church they told me—" "No. They told you something wrong.” It was very good for your little church in your hometown, but it is not good enough for here. You have the potential, but you have to work on it. And it's hard, hard work."
LD: I'm sure it is. How many hours a day does a voice student sing, practice?
RS: It's limited, of course, particularly with a young voice. You should not overdo it either. I would say about two hours a day. But it's not enough for a piano major.
LD: No, it's very different from—
RS: Yes, it's very different.
LD: Because you can strain your voice.
RS: You can, particularly as long as your technique is not developed, you have to be very careful with practicing.
LD: When does a singer reach maturity?
RS: Late twenties, I would say. About twenty-eight, twenty-nine. Some, early thirties. That way, you're fifty, it goes downhill again. [laughs]
LD: What else—what other—what people outside of the department do you remember from your time at UNCG? Did you have any contact with the administration?
RS: No. With the administration? Yes, with the Chancellor [James S.] Ferguson, I knew quite well. And, of course, some members of the drama department I worked with; some members of the language departments because we always had contacts, but I think that's about it.
LD: Was Ferguson a fan of the opera?
RS: Yes. Yes. Oh, yes. He came to every production.
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LD: [clock chimes] It's a good thing it's only one o'clock [pm]. Is there anything else you'd like to talk about from your years at UNCG?
RS: No. I think that was about the most important things we touched.
LD: You enjoyed your years at UNCG?
RS: Oh, yes. I liked it here. I never regretted leaving Colorado. I miss the countryside. That's why—
LD: It's beautiful. Boulder is very beautiful.
RS: Every summer I go back. So that's good enough.
LD: Well, it seems to me, you get a lot of travel in.
RS: I do a lot of travel.
LD: Where do you go in Switzerland when you go?
RS: Zurich, where I lived for many years.
LD: Do you still have family?
RS: No, but many friends from these years in Switzerland. No, I go back every year for about two months, and Zurich is my home base, I should say. And from there, I was one week in Rome, and I go every year to Lugano, which I love very much, in southern Switzerland. So I travel around that area.
LD: Well, it sounds like a lovely—. It sounds like a nice itinerary.
RS: Yes. I enjoy my retirement, as you can tell, I guess. [laughs]
LD: I do. I can. I can tell. Well, I appreciate your giving me the interview, and thank you very much.
RS: You're very, very welcome. Thank you.
[End of Interview]
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