Oral history interview with Eula King Vereen, 1991 [text/print transcript]

              1
UNCG CENTENNIAL ORAL HISTORY PROJECT COLLECTION
INTERVIEWEE: Eula King Vereen
INTERVIEWER: Cheryl Junk
DATE: March 28, 1991
[Begin Side A]
CJ: This is Cheryl Junk and I am in the home of Mrs. Eula King Vereen—
EV: Yes.
CJ: —and today is Thursday, 28th of March 1991. Mrs. Vereen, let's start by your telling us—telling me—when the years you were at Woman's College, what your course of study was, and why you choose Woman's College.
EV: Well, the reason I choose UNCG [The University of North Carolina at Greensboro], because in the first place, I was divorced and I didn't have a lot of money to go elsewhere, plus the fact I knew that it was an excellent school. And I needed a major in food service management and I was either to get a triple major, which was surely an advantage to me to get a triple major because when I went back to work at A&T [North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University], I was the only one who could teach in three areas. So, it sure was an advantage to me to go to UNCG.
CJ: What were the majors and what degree did you get?
EV: I got a triple major in food service management, foods, and then nutrition.
CJ: Okay.
EV: That was a triple major.
CJ: All right. Was that a bachelor's degree or a master's degree?
EV: Master's degree.
CJ: And what were the years?
EV: I believe I must have completed that the year of '69 or either '71. It was between those years.
2
CJ: Yes, so you were not an undergraduate at UNCG?
EV: No, no, no. I was a graduate student plus afterwards I have done some graduate studies also.
CJ: Okay. Where did you go to undergraduate school?
EV: I went—finished Tennessee State University in Nashville, Tennessee and I studied at Cornell University in Ithaca, New York and I studied at Columbia University in New York City. And also I would like to remind you of the fact that UNCG Home Economics Department was so excellent it reminded me of Cornell.
CJ: Wow!
EV: And I really constantly reminded my instructors that it was another Cornell University.
CJ: Wow! That's quite a quote. So it really was UNCG when you were there. It wasn't Woman's College anymore?
EV: That's right. It was UNCG.
CJ: It was after that. Okay. Tell me some of your impressions of—did you live on campus?
EV: No, no. I was living right here.
CJ: Okay. What was life like for you in the classroom and what were your peers like?
EV: The peers were just lovely and for the most part, I can say truthfully that the instructors were lovely. And I came at a time, I believe, integration was just over the fence.
CJ: Right.
EV: But I couldn't see any difference at all as far as color was concerned because everybody treated me nice and particularly the dean, Dean Naomi Albanese. Did you know her?
CJ: Say the name again? I'm sorry.
EV: Dean Naomi Albanese. She was dean of home economics for years.
CJ: Oh, yes. Albanese. Dean Albanese. No, I didn't know her.
EV: Well, she was our dean. She was an excellent dean and she saw no color.
CJ: Wonderful.
EV: So she treated all of us just alike. However, I did run into one professor, but you know, 3
when you have more pluses than minuses you kind of have a tendency to look over the minuses. [laughs]
CJ: That's true. Tell me; was there any kind of an entrance examination required at UNCG?
EV: Yes. Yes.
CJ: Tell me about that.
EV: That was—let me see, what was the name of that test? It was—it only had a hundred questions, which I didn't do so well, because I freeze up on exams. But they still took me in. I was very appreciative of that.
CJ: This wasn't the Graduate Record Exam. This was a special exam [at] UNCG—
EV: It was a Graduate Record Exam, but I've forgotten the name of it because we only had a hundred questions that everybody has to take.
CJ: Okay. Okay. What I was getting at is that I spoke with one woman who graduated in—she was an undergrad and she graduated in, I believe, 1961 and they—the undergrads did have to take an entrance exam.
EV: Well, I guess you certainly would probably call it an entrance exam as well. But I can't—at this point, I can't pick up the name of it, but I know it was a very difficult test. [laughs]
CJ: Okay. Do you happen to know if it was just given by UNCG or was it given to all grad students all over the country?
EV: Well, I can imagine—well, when I went to Cornell, I didn't have to take an exam.
CJ: Okay.
EV: So perhaps it was just UNCG, but I can imagine there are others, too, across the country but I know UNCG did have it.
CJ: Was there one at Columbia?
EV: No, no, no, no. Not at Columbia.
CJ: What about at Tennessee?
EV: No, because I did my undergraduate work at Tennessee.
CJ: Right. Did you have to take an entrance exam?
EV: No, because see, that was just your transcript counted as an undergrad. 4
CJ: Okay. Okay. One thing I'm curious about from another interview that came up, what were the rules regarding smoking and drinking on campus? Do you know?
EV: At that time, I'm not too familiar with drinking. I'd didn't see any, but you could smoke.
CJ: You could smoke.
EV: You could smoke.
CJ: Anywhere?
EV: Yes, in the classroom. Now, some of the teachers allowed it at the breaks. At that time you could smoke. Then some of them allowed—you could smoke while classes were going on, depending on the teacher. They didn't have any strict rules that you could not smoke.
CJ: What are some of the outstanding memories you have?
EV: Well, some of the outstanding ones, because I feel like I'm well educated. [laughs]
CJ: Yes.
EV: Because the teachers were very strict, but still yet, they were very thorough and I would like for you to listen to what I'm going to tell about my thesis. And it seemed to me I had the hardest advisors and those are the ones that I didn't want. [laughs] Dr. Faye Grant [School of Home Economics professor], who was an excellent Ph.D. and she was my major advisor.
Then there was Dr. [Anne] Shamburger [School of Home Economics professor] and then Dr. [Rosemary] McGee [Department of Health, Physical Education, and Recreation professor]. I think Dr. McGee is still there. And when nutrition [unclear] I said, "I hope I get Dr. Shamburger. I hope I don't get Dr. Grant." So they assigned me to Dr. Grant and I was so glad because I she was so thorough. She was so thorough. I was just telling my girlfriend, I said, "If I knew how to spell and I've been writing ever since I was in high school, so that was an advantage. If it hadn't been for that, my not knowing how to spell, I could not have made it with Dr. Grant. But I'm so glad because I had used my thesis quite a bit and after I finished my thesis, it was one of the best ones because I had to present it to the [School of] Home Economics faculty.
CJ: What was it on?
EV: It was on the nutritive value of forty home economics students at A&T.
CJ: Say it again.
EV: Nutritive value of forty home economics students at A&T.
5
CJ: Okay. And what did you look at in that study?
EV: Well, I had to—I was seeing whether or not they were low, whether or not they were up to par in various nutrients.
CJ: You mean, personally. How well they ate.
EV: Yes. I had to take what they ate. I had to assess what they ate every day at every meal, three meals a day. And I think I must have done this for a whole month.
CJ: Wow!
EV: Forty students. I had to go there and be sure that—you know, catch their food [unclear], see what they ate and see what and see what they didn't eat and what they disliked, what they liked. All of that had to be assessed.
CJ: Wow! And you did that personally?
EV: Personally.
CJ: They didn't keep food diaries?
EV: Oh, no, no, no, no. I had to just—I had blanks that I filled out every day.
CJ: Wow!
EV: And of course, I assessed it by the agricultural—we had a booklet that we went by. All of the nutrients—oh, my land. It just took me just, I mean, a whole year to do that thesis. And I just worked so hard I had cramps in my stomach. [laughs]
CJ: What did you find?
EV: Well, I did find that most of the girls were low in iron. And that was for the most part, and most of them had traditional eating habits. That is, if my parents ate collard greens, I ate collard greens.
CJ: Sure.
EV: And most of them didn't like the modern food like the broccoli because they weren't used to eating broccoli before they came to college. And most of them were from rural North Carolina. Well, and as a matter of fact, the biggest part were from North Carolina. And most of them were low-income, struggling parents, and they ate what they could afford to eat. But it was a traditional sort of habit that they had. [laughs]
CJ: Yes. Well, that's very impressive. That's really neat. What other memories have you got?
6
EV: Well, now, that one was real good and I was very impressed about how well they treated blacks at that time. That was very impressive, I felt, because Dean [Mereb] Mossman [sociology professor, dean of instruction, dean of the college, dean of faculty, and vice chancellor for academic affairs] I think was the major academic dean. And I was so impressed when she said she just simply wasn't going to have any discrimination.
CJ: I'm glad to hear that.
EV: Yes.
CJ: I'm very glad to hear that.
EV: And I really didn't see any; however, I did have a little problem with one of the instructors which I told you that, but it didn't matter enough because they came to me and asked me to bend for this instructor. Because he was on my—he was one of my advisors for my thesis.
CJ: He was on your committee?
EV: Yes. So I was willing to bend because I wanted to get out. [laughs]
CJ: Yes, politics. [laughs]
EV: Yes. But Dean Albanese, [coughs]—excuse me—was a very thorough person and they respected her highly, and I just—since that time, I've asked for a lot of recommendations from some of the instructors. [unclear] Mrs. Wentworth, who went on to get her doctorate degree was very, very nice. And there were some other teachers over there that I admired and some of them are still there.
CJ: Can you call their names?
EV: Let me see. She was teaching foods. I'll think of it before we get over. Dickey, Mrs. [Mary Andrews] Dickey [School of Home Economics professor].
CJ: Mrs. Dickey?
EV: Yes. You know her?
CJ: No.
EV: Well, she's still there.
CJ: I'm over in the McIver Building. I never get over on the other side of campus.
EV: Well, now she was—she taught me food demonstration. And I have been able to use that course, that particular course, and given lectures myself. I gave several lectures over at 7
Bennett College. I used that course. And I used that course with my students and it was just a beautiful, beautiful course. And she was a very lovely teacher. And I remember Mrs. Wentworth who later went on to get her doctorate. She was a very lovely teacher and she taught me some evening courses. See, I had to take evening courses [unclear] in the summer because I still was working part time at A&T, plus I still had a family on the side.
CJ: Oh, my word.
EV: But I was determined to get it. [laughs]
CJ: You really wanted that, didn't you?
EV: Oh, I really wanted it. But sometimes it was so hard and I was so tired going up those steps at Stone Hall. You know, the [School of] Home Economics building? I said, "Lord, will I make it?" Because I, you know, much younger then. And I could withstand a lot of hard work and hard study. At times I could hardly make it up those steps.
CJ: It's amazing what we do when we're young, isn't it?
EV: I'm telling you.
CJ: What were your classmates like? Were they, you know, about their ages and they’re, you know, the mix of genders and so on?
EV: Now, during the summer, [coughs]—excuse me—they were about my age and they were teachers who came back maybe to renew a certificate. Now, during the regular session, I had quite a few who were younger than I was. But of course, that was not a problem because they cooperated with me and I cooperated with them and knowing that the instructors were fair and nice. So we didn't have any problems at all.
CJ: Was it a nice mix of men and women, or?
EV: No, we didn't have many men. As a matter of fact, I can't think of any single man that we had in any of our courses. Mostly women, because a lot of men just don't like home economics. They think it's all cooking and sewing, but it's not. [laughs]
CJ: No. No. Was it fairly mixed racially or not, by then?
EV: No. No, no, no, no. In the summer we had about two or three blacks, but during the regular session, we didn't have—I think—in many of the classes I was the only black.
CJ: Were you also the oldest one most of the time? Or not?
EV: During the regular session I was. But in the summer it was not like that because they came from, you know, all over the state of North Carolina. There were teachers and home 8
demonstration agents and people of that sort.
CJ: Tell me about your career after you got your degree from UNCG.
EV: Well, after I got my career—I mean, after I got my degree from UNCG, then I was full time at the A&T.
CJ: Okay. What was your position there?
EV: I started out as an instructor and I was promoted to an assistantship—Assistant professor and I am an assistant professor now.
CJ: In nutrition?
EV: Well, as I said before, I teach in three areas.
CJ: Okay.
EV: But it is in foods and nutrition.
CJ: Okay.
EV: But I teach—as a matter of fact, I'm the only one there who can teach food service management. And I teach foods and I teach—I guess I'm the handy girl. [laughs]
CJ: All purpose.
EV: Yes. [laughs]
CJ: I was going to ask you what the—what kind of contact did you have with undergraduates on the campus and what kind of social climate was there at the time? That was the early '70s. Was there much political unrest or what was going on?
EV: No, it was quiet at that time, but I had very little or no social activities with them because they were younger than I was and plus the fact I had so many things to do over at the university teaching two classes and taking care of a little boy. So I didn't have time to, you know, to socialize. And I don't know whether they wanted to be with anybody older anyway. [laughs]
CJ: [laughs] I know. I know.
EV: But we did—at the same time, I was going, because I was an ADA registered dietician at that time, also.
CJ: What does ADA stand for?
9
EV: American Dietetic Association.
CJ: Yes. And you were registered with them?
EV: No, it's nationwide.
CJ: I see.
EV: Just like a registered nurse.
CJ: Oh, okay.
EV: I was a registered dietician. And I was able to get my registration by Mrs. [Margaret Ellen] Penn [School of Home Economics professor]. I don't know whether you knew Mrs. Penn or not, who taught—she had the cafeteria and she taught food administration. And you could get your ADA by several ways; by doing an internship. But she supervised my work at the university. I was director at the food service at that time.
CJ: At A&T?
EV: At that time. I was director of food service, so she came over about six times and she supervised what I was doing.
CJ: Oh, so you got credit for doing that, or?
EV: No. That was before I entered UNCG.
CJ: I see.
EV: That was before the time—she did me a favor coming over there and supervising my work and then recommending me yes or no to the American Dietetic Association.
CJ: Okay.
EV: And then I received mine. And at that time, it was a funny thing. Mrs. Penn—I told Mrs. Penn, I said, "Please come over," and I said, "Maybe I will be able to help you sometime." So I was able to help her because she was a very stern teacher and she had a problem getting along with people that were working—not necessarily her students, but her workers in the cafeteria.
CJ: Stern. She was stern?
EV: Yes, and then, too, she was, you know, these people are just very difficult to get along with in food service. See, there was a real cafeteria where the people came over and ate. And so, one time—at the very end, she was leaving. I think she was about to retire. She was getting ready to retire. And some of her workers walked out on her, but I stayed and 10
helped her. I stayed and helped her to cook. I stayed and helped her to clean tables and all. And she said, "Well, Eula, you told me about two or three years ago if I ever needed you, you would help." She said, "I was wondering how in the world could Eula help me do anything?" So she remembered that.
CJ: Yes. Was this—I don't remember. Was this before the cafeteria workers strike or after it?
EV: I don't think they ever had a strike while I was there.
CJ: Oh, okay.
EV: It was just, she was retiring. You know how it is when people say, "Well, I don't need her anymore." You know how you'd act ugly sometimes. [laughs]
CJ: Yes. Yes. But there was a—I just don't remember the years.
EV: Now this had nothing to do with the main cafeteria.
CJ: Oh!
EV: This was just a small cafeteria in [School of] Home Economics that they used to train the girls.
CJ: Oh, like a lab?
EV: Yes.
CJ: I see, I see.
EV: But they served a regular meal. They served a regular luncheon there five days a week.
CJ: Oh! Okay. And the girls cooked it?
EV: Yes. The girls cooked the dinner and of course you had other employees, but the girls came in whenever they could.
CJ: Do they still have that?
EV: Oh, no. They did away with that, regretfully speaking. Because everybody, all the faculty members ate down there and the food was so good. And all the old city people around the community came and ate there. And Mrs. Penn was the best cook. Delicious rolls and casseroles. Oh, they were so good.
CJ: So, when—what made you decide to want to go into nutrition as a field?
EV: Well, as an undergraduate, I had majored in home economics and I was director of food 11
service at A&T and a catering firm came over and they hired the catering firm, so they transferred me to Home Economics [Department]. So Dr. Lewis Dowdy, who was just—we called him—he was president at time. He was lovely to me. He transferred me to Home Economics. And he said, "Eula, you have to study."
CJ: At Tennessee, this was?
EV: No, this was here at A&T.
CJ: At A&T. Oh, okay.
EV: I was director of food service at A&T, and then he transferred me, because I didn't want to stay with this catering firm. It was Slater Catering Food Service. I didn't want to stay with them. And of course, I didn't have any money to go elsewhere. I mean, as I said before, times were kind of hard, you know, trying to raise a child. And Dr. Dowdy was very gracious, very good to me. He said, "You can stay with Slater or either we can transfer you to Home Economics with your same salary." And so he said, "But you have to study." So, I admit—I didn't mind because I enjoyed studying at that time. I just loved UNCG and I enjoyed studying over there.
CJ: It's a wonderful place.
EV: Oh, it's a wonderful place.
CJ: I love it myself.
EV: And then Home Economics Department, I'm telling you, I constantly reminded them, I said, "This is another Cornell." They had good teachers, you learned so much. And I've been—I have been able to use a lot of things that I learned from the various teachers.
CJ: That's good. That’s good. Back when you were an undergrad at Tennessee, did you already know you wanted to work in food service then, or—?
EV: Well, I really wanted to be a lawyer. Way back there. So my father wouldn't let me—major—get near law because he said, "Oh, girl, you can't make it. You're a black woman and everything." He would say, "You're a good cook." [laughs] Said, "Go on down there and take up cooking and sewing." [He would] Say, "You will never make it in this world being a lawyer."
CJ: Oh, dear.
EV: So my father made me major in home economics.
CJ: Oh, my goodness. How do you feel about that?
EV: Well, I feel great about it, because I have been able to branch out into other things. One 12
reason, I have my own dress business now.
CJ: I noticed all those beautiful clothes over there.
EV: Yes. I have my own dress business and they said, "Well, I didn't know you could sew." But I don't. I don't sew a lick. But it's because of home economics and I've seen fashion shows. I've seen—been around home economics teachers who majored in clothing. So, now I have my own business. I'm doing quite well with it.
CJ: Is it custom made clothing?
EV: No.
CJ: What is it?
EV: I go to the market—Belk's and Ivey's [department stores]. I go to the market. Of course, now I co-shop. I just got these here as a storage area. And then some of my friends come by. But I have a co-shop with this lady up here on Market Street.
CJ: You have a clothing shop.
EV: Yes. A co-shop. When I say co-shop, I have some of my things in there and we have different tax numbers.
CJ: Oh. Co-shop. I see.
EV: Yes. And I pay her rent.
CJ: Oh, I see. Okay.
EV: And we send in our separate, you know, taxes every month.
CJ: And you sell clothing?
EV: I sell clothing.
CJ: How about that.
EV: And I do fashion shows.
CJ: That's wonderful. That pink jacket over there is gorgeous. I love it.
EV: Well, thank you.
CJ: That's very pretty.
13
EV: I do fashion shows and I sell—and I send out wardrobes, too. For instance, if you—well, see, are you interested in wardrobe with no obligation to buy?
CJ: No. [laughs] Oh, I see, you ask somebody.
EV: And so when they say, "Oh, yes." I send them to Brunswick, Georgia and South Carolina or Durham. And then, I send maybe six, seven, eight dresses. It's very, very prosperous because they'll take at least three dresses or four dresses.
CJ: Wonderful.
EV: And then of course, we have pay plans, too. Well, see all of this stemmed out of home economics. If I had not made it in home economics, I wouldn't know how to do this.
CJ: No, you wouldn't have. That's true.
EV: And of course, catering, too. I have done—when times were rough—I have done some catering and a lot of this stems from UNCG with that class that Mrs. Dickey taught us, food demonstration. I've done wedding receptions and special dinners and things of that nature.
CJ: That is very hard work.
EV: It is.
CJ: That is incredibly hard work.
EV: It's hard work. And then people don't want to pay you.
CJ: No. I have cooked for large groups. Not catering, but kind of you know, for my church, you know. And I have cooked for two hundred people and I was worn out when I was finished.
EV: And then people don't want to pay you.
CJ: No.
EV: They're bad at saying thank you.
CJ: I did that for a week and it nearly killed me.
EV: Oh, my land. Well, see I don't do it—any of that now. I don't do any of that now at all because I'm so busy with my teaching over there and then with my business here.
CJ: And when you were at Tennessee did you go ahead and major in—what was your major at Tennessee? 14
EV: Pure home economics.
CJ: Okay. So you agreed with daddy and you gave up law?
EV: Yes.
CJ: Okay. Okay. Did—all right. Let me think now. Was the Speaker Ban in effect when you were at UNCG? Do you remember that?
EV: A Speaker Ban?
CJ: Yes. There was a law that the [North Carolina] General Assembly passed that prohibited—
EV: Freedom of speech?
CJ: —having speakers come and speak if they had ever taken the fifth amendment in their life.
EV: No. I didn't hear anything about that.
CJ: I think this was earlier.
EV: Maybe so.
CJ: Yes. I think it was in the—at the tail end of the McCarthy era.
EV: Maybe so.
CJ: Now is there anything else? I think we've covered just about everything I had in mind. Is there anything else you want to be sure and say?
EV: No. I think really if you apply yourself then I don't think you would have the chance of looking at whether you are black or whether you are white, because I believe in earning what you get. Now a lot of people I've heard—well, quite a few said they didn't like it. And I'm beginning to—I didn't have any problems because I was older and I studied and I wanted to come out to prepare myself to go back to A&T and do a good job. So I didn't have any problems. But I'm just wondering [coughs]—excuse me—those people who have had trouble ought to look at both sides of the story. You see, "Have you studied? Have you done this?" Because I know someone would tell my students at A&T now don't study as hard as they could be studying. And a lot of times they say, "Where is your assignment?" "I left it at home," or “It's in the car," you know. But you just can't—and I don't believe in discriminating against anybody, but it just really makes me sick for people to hide back up behind because you're white, because you're colored. I'm being cheated.
15
CJ: Oh, you mean like an excuse.
EV: Yes. [laughs]
CJ: I see. I see.
EV: You see what I mean?
CJ: Yes. Yes. Yes, I do.
EV: I'm telling you the truth. Just think, I was at the [Greensboro] City Council meeting one day and this man said he—the city should give him a contract because he was black. I didn't agree with that. I would not agree with that at all. If you earn it, if you deserve it then you get it. I didn't make all As. I made As and Bs, but I learned quite a bit. And I have the highest respect for UNCG.
CJ: Well, thank you. Thank you. This has been wonderful. And I appreciate it.
EV: All righty.
[End of Interview]