Oral history interview with Dr. Sue Medley, 2015 [text/print transcript]

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THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT GREENSBORO
INSTITUTIONAL MEMORY COLLECTION
INTERVIEWEE: Dr. Sue Medley
INTERVIEWER: Brittany Hedrick
DATE: September 14, 2015
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BH: My name is Brittany Hedrick, and today is Monday, September 14, 2015. I am in Jackson Library with Ms. Sue Medley, Class of 1965, to conduct an oral history interview for the UNCG[University of North Carolina at Greensboro] Institutional Memory Collection. Thank you, Ms. Medley, for participating in this project and sharing your experiences with me. I’d like to start the interview by asking you about your childhood. Could you tell me when and where you were born, and what it was like growing up during this period?
SM: I was born in Greensboro—lived a good part of my life in Greensboro altogether. My family moved to Wilmington and then we moved to Monroe, Michigan—then we moved to South Bend, Indiana, and then returned to Greensboro, North Carolina. I’ve been here since then, except for two years that I spent with my teaching in Southwestern Virginia, after graduating from WC-UNCG [Woman’s College of the University of North Carolina]. It was an interesting time—it must seem like a long time ago, to you and to others who are not my age. I’m seventy-two and my classmates and I just celebrated our fiftieth year reunion at UNCG and we were a link between WC and UNCG so it was a change that came about while we were juniors and so it didn’t change much for us—it was mostly a change in name—but graduated from here and went into the world of education, and it was a time that was a very turbulent time during the years that I was here. Do you want to hear about those?
BH: Sure. Had you always planned on attending UNCG?
SM: No, my family had returned to Greensboro just five years before I went to college, but I learned about women’s college from high school when some of my teachers would bring us over—either for foreign films as our French teacher did, or for hearing someone like Robert Frost [poet], who was a special speaker, a friend of Randall Jarrell’s [professor], and came—and so I learned about it then and decided for an English major, which I knew I wanted to be. This was a wonderful place to come.
BH: So, your favorite subject was English obviously. 2
SM: Yes.
BH: Did you have any favorite professors?
SM: I did. I did. I had, I liked the history classes too and had some stellar history professors, but in the English department there was of course Randall Jarrell—and I was very fortunate to take a year worth of his teaching of Robert Frost and T.S. Elliott—and I also had Dr. Bryant who was with Shakespeare—and we had Peter Taylor come here because he was a friend of Randall Jarrell.
BH: And how do you spell Jarrell?
SM: J-A-R-R-E-L-L, I believe.
BH: Okay.
SM: He was a well-known poet—nationally known—an internationally known poet and many of the people in literature came to him—whether they were poets or novelists—knew him and so he was able to bring to this campus just some really outstanding people. He was quite—you would like to read some of his poetry and also know about his career.
BH: And where did you live on campus?
SM: I lived in Shaw Hall, which has changed so much in the last couple three years—freshman year—and then I went to Strong Dormitory for I guess maybe one year and then to Winfield [Residence Hall] for the last two years—so I lived in the dorms.
BH: What was the dorm life like and was it assigned by race?
SM: You know there was one situation for us—that many of us did not know. It was our African American students who were in our class—and I think there were five in the beginning. Evidently the administration thought it would be better for them if they were grouped off as a unit—and that’s what they were in a part of Coit Hall, I understand—and I learned all of this in the last year or two. Rarely had classes with African Americans or much diversity—it was mostly a white campus, with some foreign students—just oblivious. There were events going on around all of us which we became much more aware of civil rights and the struggle for civil rights and we were participants in it. Fact, members of my class and I participated in the boycotting of Tate Street businesses because they were not allowing our classmates to come—or any of the UNCG students, whether they were our year—1965, or not. They were not allowed to go to the restaurants or to the theater or any of the places right on or near campus.
BH: So I take it you were politically active?
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SM: Not as active as some of my classmates, but certainly I could see from having been in Greensboro during the year—it was my high school year—senior—when there were the sit-ins at Woolworths downtown—and beginning to be really attune to the—what we had grown up to know as just the way of life—as segregation, and the evils of that.
BH: So, tell me about the rules and regulations at UNCG.
SM: Oh lots of rules, lots of rules and regulations. It was during a time in which the administration felt that they were the parental force in our lives and that they were really charged by the parents for our safety and that was the first thing that they considered and I think that was what was behind many of the rules, but oh my goodness. Very restrictive for dress, clear codes about what you could and could not wear. Could not wear, for example, pants of any kind across campus at one point, so many times people, not only went to classes early in the morning with their raincoats and their pajamas rolled up but if you had on pants you would hide those also. Sign in, sign out rules. So called locked doors—even if they weren’t physically locked you knew that you were not supposed to go through that door at a certain time, so they tried to keep the dorms themselves. Couldn’t go off campus, strict rules about riding in the car with a boy, I think, and all of that—even freshman year starting out with study hours so many of us studied in our closets with flashlights so that we could finish assignments or—we were freshman then, so very structured. Lights out at a certain time—all of that. [laughter] We laugh about it now, and we had a lot of fun in spite of it but it was a different atmosphere—it was all female up until those last two years, and we just had a smattering of males who registered to come here before we graduated—even by ‘67 I think they just had a few represent males. Very restrictive—dress codes, conduct codes, honor code. Honor code was very serious. We had an honor court—we still have that—and a social court too that took care of any infractions and things that were considered real problems.
BH: Were any precautions taken whenever the school became co-educational—about interactions between males and females?
SM: Now that I don’t know, because we really did—beginning of our junior year—not see males. There were none in our class at all and I just don’t remember what they did with the men that did come [ laughter]. Probably put them somewhere by themselves. There was no sharing of dorms for certain, and I just don’t, I think they eased into that. I don’t remember any outstanding rules.
BH: Can you recall if they were mistreated, ostracized, or regarded as effeminate?
SM: Well you know, all of that by some classmates who resented—because Woman’s College had become well known nationally for various and different schools. The School of Nursing, for example, was nationally known and highly ranked. Home Economics—highly ranked. Physical Education was highly ranked and I’m talking about maybe the top three in the nation, top five in those areas that we would hear there were awards given to those departments—so a long standing, proud history—traditions of women coming here. At one time, I’m told—that it was the largest female college, four year college, 4
liberal arts in the nation. So much history and people saw that as a threat, as a change. There were so few males and there were different reactions, some people resented—to this day—but others were more accepting and realizing the need to perhaps to make some changes, but there was a culture and an atmosphere that was lost, I think, once it became co-ed—that was really beneficial to females because you’ll remember we’re talking about the sixties, and women at that time—if you want to talk about restrictive roles and images—that was definitely the gender issues—the racial and the gender issues were the two major issues that I can remember affected most of us because you had just certain careers you were steered into—certain expectations about your behavior and your roles that you were assumed—that it was assumed you would have. So a very different time altogether. If you’ve seen something like Mad Men. I never watch that. I watched one episode and I realized again the demeanor toward women and the attitude and the ceilings were so clear then. Many of our classmates—because we were in an environment that encouraged us to think, to become aware of issues—they were very forward thinking and we had quite a few who began to call themselves feminists. They began to demand more respect as females and for those roles to be broadened. So, it was quite an interesting time.
BH: So, how did you and your classmates feel about the Equal Pay Act?
SM: Well, I don’t know how my classmates feel, but I would assume most of them think that’s was a fair and just thing to do. It is no longer defensible to say that it will cause a business to go bankrupt if I’m paid as much as my colleague. It’s something you still see reflected in all areas—that people will assume because you’re female perhaps—to be paid less—and you train the men who then become your boss sometimes in the business world. No, I think you would find many in the class if ‘65 would, right now and even then, would speak against that—unfairness—and demand equality.
BH: So, what did you think about the dining hall food? I’m just curious.
SM: It was okay. There were some foods that they prepared that I didn’t eat. I never acquired a taste for chicken livers, but some people loved them. And it was alright, we certainly did not have the options that you all have today. When I see the salad bars and the specialized—it just is wonderful and I’m so glad. I hope the food is good. Well, I’ve rarely eaten here in the last several years, but I just thought, oh those options. Much more casual dining—I can remember that we were expected to dress a certain way—especially, I think, on Sundays, if I’m remembering correctly, that we were supposed to dress a little bit better. We would never come dressed—in fact the whole idea of dress is so different now from my generation and it’s different in the casualness and the difference there. It would be one of the first things you would notice, perhaps, in the dining hall itself—because there were those public places where you were supposed to—if you went downtown, you were supposed to be dressed at least nicely enough that nobody would talk about how you were dressed, and it wouldn’t be a problem. There was a little more emphasis on being dressed, and I believe I remember tablecloths, but generally people talked about how bad the food was. I think it was the thing to do too.
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BH: In regards to the dining hall, was the dining hall largely segregated?
SM: I don’t remember. Are you talking about racially segregated? I don’t remember that. I just remember that Woman’s College at that time—we had so few. I mean, there were six hundred people in my class of ‘65 when we began as freshman. I think we had at the most five African American females. So it was widely distorted as far as—so that our African American friends—I don’t think— well there wasn’t anyone in Shaw Hall where we lived and in most of the classes, I never saw one—not even upperclassmen. I just don’t remember having any African American classmates.
BH: So you weren’t personal friends with any of the five that you remember?
SM: No. Now I have since then become good friends—one of my best that I’ve just come to treasure, is Alice Brown [Class of 1965]. She was here and in Coit Hall and she has provided my classmates and me and the planning team for our fiftieth reunion some—we had a wonderful session. I don’t know if you know about it but, at the reunion we had a session that dwelled on the status on civil rights during the time in when we were here. And we had friends like Alice and some other classmates from other years come back and talk about what it was like for them to be such a minority on campus and their memories of what it was like to be here, and there was some real, real, sad—I mean, it was very moving. It was well attended. My classmates who were at the reunion came and just found it to be a stunning session and eye-opening and helpful to us—and a lot of apologies for not realizing. We were beginning to be aware on a national scene and just for the whole issue of civil rights and many of us went on to participate in organizations to this day that celebrate diversity and equal rights and are very concerned about the status today of what’s happening in America—that are still going over that same territories, some of those same feelings and attitudes that can be a little discouraging.
BH: So these were the turbulent times you were referring to earlier?
SM: Yes, the actual riots we would see on television—the way it affected us here as far as Tate Street—that was because the downtown part had happened, I guess in the Spring just before we had come that Fall—but just some ongoing issues. The Martin Luther King—we had left college by the time that he was assassinated and Robert Kennedy—but we were here when John Kennedy was assassinated, so we saw some assassinations. We were here too for the LBJ Civil Rights Bill, in ’64—and what a statement that was. That was really an important part of history—so we saw a lot of history. The Vietnam War was getting under way—and just lots of things that showed that America was quickly changing and in some ways not for the best—but violent and uncharted.
BH: Can you describe the day that John F. Kennedy was assassinated for you and how you felt?
SM: It had quite an impact because he was a youthful, vigorous—In fact, his attitude about providing service—and service is a keystone or has been a cornerstone for Woman’s College and continues today. We had a session about that too and how students today 6
from your office—leadership, learning—students are participating in service in the community. Service was such an important aspect of what we talked about in our classes—what we kind of absorbed from the President himself who included that in his speech—about service to the country—Peace Corps—some of my classmates joined the Peace Corps after graduation there. The whole idea of service he had—and just the image that we had of him as a very intelligent, smart, progressive President. I can remember—everybody remembers where they were—and will talk about that today. I had just gone back to my dorm from a class and the news came on the radio. We didn’t have TV’s in the classroom, but it was just astounding to all of us and very sad. The mood on the campus was extremely sad—just shocked and those days that followed when we could—I think it was just before our Thanksgiving holiday—so many of us went home and watched on our televisions—the coverage that Walter Kronkite [news anchor] and some of the others had nonstop about the—and then with the [ Lee Harvey] Oswald’s and the funeral. It was just a somber, sad time and just another incident—it doesn’t seem fair to call that an incident—but something along the way in those years that proved to be so disturbing and made people think, “Well what is happening?” “What’s happening in our country?” We were more and more aware that there were changes afloat and lots of anger—lots of divisions—so that affected us, yes—and every one of my classmates can remember where she was when that news came across.
BH: What were the dances like on campus?
SM: [laughter] Well that gets into a really interesting—we did have dances here and of course our fellas would come from colleges and universities for them and if you’ve seen pictures from that era—we had a couple formal dances but most of them were just casual Friday night or Saturday night dances at Elliott Hall—is what we called it then. I know you have heard about how there was a time when they would—the women would get on buses, like cattle [laughter] and be sent—taken to Chapel Hill, for example, and you get off the bus and fellas would be looking girls over and if you didn’t already have your date—they’d be checking out and whom they might go up and talk to—or who was. It was just—that again was a gender issue that was just what it was. [laughter]. It was terrible.
BH: [laughter] Okay so, because of your word choice I’m assuming you didn’t take too kindly to it. [laughter]
SM: No, I did not participate in that. [laughter] I did have someone then but no, I would not have either, because I had someone describe what they had gone through the year before, and I thought, you know that just really smacks of—something wrong with that—demeaning, so.
BH: Were any of your classmates married?
SM: Yes, some town students were. I’m not sure—In fact, one of my good friends married in April just before we graduated in May. So yes they were and they had—some had returned to college because they had married and had their children or had some children, but were able to come back and finish the last two years or a year, but yes they were. 7
BH: You did mention there were foreign students on campus?
SM: Yes, we had good sampling of students from different countries and there was some study abroad. Some of my classmates—one is now living in Japan and has since graduation. One has been living in Spain and has been. So many of them, from their studies abroad and experiences, went abroad themselves afterwards.
BH: Is there anything else you can remember about campus traditions that you would like to mention?
SM: It was a wonderful atmosphere. I think that many of these traditions that we had—like we had ceremonies—we had Jacket Day—something called “Rat Day,”—when you were a sophomore you got your jacket and so you lord it over the freshman by—you would wake them early in the morning in the dorms—the freshman dorms, because they grouped freshman together then and it was just a fun day. We had ring ceremonies. We had sister classes—Class of ’63 was our sister class and that was a wonderful tradition because they really did seem like our older sisters, and they would give us advice. They were our house presidents when we were in freshman dorms and they were—they befriended us. It really was helpful coming onto campus as a young freshman particularly. They had several things—they had teas in Elliott Hall on Tuesdays—and they were not formal teas—people would gather and we would mix socially. There was a closeness—for example—and we did have classes with class Presidents and officers and class meetings. So you had an identity with your class also. I think that created a nice bond and women can bond very well and have friendships—since that time—not just single friendships, but lots of friends and when you come back for a reunion. Have you ever seen in the Spring—the reunions when the ladies come back?
BH: I have not.
SM: You need to see that because what you see is a sisterhood that’s just wonderful and an attitude with older woman particularly—you see a lot of strength from experiences they’ve lived and a real affection for this university and this campus that benefits UNCG today—not only specifically with donations and financial support but who stand ready to protect it from any types of—I hope we are willing to change, though sometimes that’s been fiercely fought too, some of the changes like the dorms renovated on the Quad; there was the original idea of tearing them down but the alumni, alumnae particularly, thought, no that’s—you keep the Quad, that’s the roots of the University right there so they really did amount quite an offensive to keep the Quad and help support the changes, the renovations, those kinds of things. A great atmosphere that we remember; it was such a different time in the world. We had our Yum-Yum [laughter].
BH: [whispers] I love Yum-Yum’s. [laughter]
SM: [laughter] Yeah, delicious Yum-Yum; terrible hotdogs, but delicious. [chuckles] Things like that. We had some wonderful female leaders too, Dean [Katherine] Taylor, I don’t 8
know if you’ve heard of Dean Taylor—Dean [Mereb] Mossman, women who were really outstanding women; strong. I think that one of the professors here, Dr. [Hephzibah] Roskelly, has written a book, or did for us a speech, during our reunion, which he talked about some of the outstanding leaders. Some were male, who were outstanding, and moved the university along. Many of them were just really outstanding women, strong leaders and they set good examples for us.
BH: So the Mossman building was named after…
SM: And Taylor. There is Taylor Theater, and so some of their names are on some of the buildings that you see. [Ed. Note: Taylor Theater was named after W. Raymond Taylor] Quite legendary to us, as personalities, and just people we really admired. Because again, you have to think back and I think our situation is comparable to that and civil rights with racial figures and people who were important that were not known widely perhaps, but because they set examples and were representative of what you could become. It kind of set standards for us that we could become strong women, not to be overlooked or dismissed—gave us a voice. It was really important.
BH: When you were talking about traditions, you said something about “Rat Day?”
SM: Rat Day.
BH: What was Rat Day? [chuckles]
SM: Well that was as close as we came to—let’s see what was it called? We would give trouble to the—we just had fun. It was in the spirit of fun, but a rat had to—a rat, a freshman—that day only—we never asked them to do anything that was horrible, or bad, but you know they had to have ears on that we had made, and to draw a mustache or whiskers of a rat and they had to be deferential to us.
BH: Poor things. [chuckles]
SM: I know. [chuckles] It really sounds horrible doesn’t it? It was something that everybody kind of bonded the freshman together. It was an interesting way to get them—but it was done in fun, so there was not a lot of malicious feeling between the classes. Just fun. Something that people today—I don’t know if they would appreciate. I know that many of our customs and ideas of fun probably sound boring to another generation, but they served a purpose. It was that bonding—someone said—I’m trying to remember who said that you could always tell a graduate from Woman’s College because they are women who have a certain pride and are willing to speak up and speak out. I like that.
BH: Yeah. [pause] Going back—I did have a question about desegregation and some of the issues that were going on around campus. Did the students make a big deal over the Carolinian [student newspaper] mentioning blacks? It was an April issue of 1963.
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SM: I don’t remember that. What did they—Did they have an article about that or—what was the article about?
BH: Well, I had just read that some students were upset about the magazine or the newspaper mentioning…
SM: The newspaper, yeah…oh.
BH: I was just wondering if you knew anything about that.
SM: No, but I do know that many of our students came from very small towns; small Southern towns, and they had known a way of life. Many of them were more accepting of races and just of changing their thoughts about relationships with races or—than their parents. Many times they would have to break away from their communities and change their thoughts because I don’t think the full impact of what segregation had done was felt by or seen by so many of us. We just went to high schools that were segregated so you did not see and have classmates there. We just did not interact or get to know personally—if we are talking primarily racial students and really diverse students—sometimes in these very small towns, and small areas, you come from a very small community; very narrow minded, very tradition bound, very culturally handicapped and don’t want diversity. Fear it. Don’t want changes because they fear it. They just want to know—they want to keep the 50s [chuckle] and there are many people in our country at large who want to go back to the 50s in so many ways including racially. It’s just a phenomenon that is interesting and your generation—it will be interesting to see—hopefully you’ll live many more years than mine, but you will see better and better—but sometimes, it must seem excruciatingly slow and if you’re of that minority or if you’ve been a minority. I was in a minority of females, some who went into administration and then I served in a school that was ninety-percent African American. When you become a minority yourself—either gender, race, whatever—it’s only then I think you can fully appreciate the subtleties and the not so subtle discrimination and view that people will have; how they will own that view—how you have to fight against it and educate them. I had to spend a great deal of my time as one of the few female administrators educating school communities that women can be principals of secondary schools; women can handle situations because there were so few, only a couple in the school system for a good long time; there weren’t women. It’s just something you have to go about doing and hopefully do it well enough people will began to accept women. I guess it’s true if you’re a racial minority—to show that you may not be the stereotypical person that you have in your head from memories or what your parents talked about. Does that make sense, because you’ll still have that—you’ll see that—you may already as a young person? Do you ever find that by being female you’re discriminated against anywhere?
BH: It’s a hard question. Sometimes. Yeah.
SM: Sometimes we are so accustomed to that kind of treatment that we don’t even recognize it—“You’re just a girl...” You know?
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BH: Yeah.
SM: Even the gender discrimination can be strong but particularly what if you were a capable individual but you were an African American female? They had double dose of things to overcome.
BH: Well that actually leads me into my next set of questions.
SM: Okay, am I talking too much?
BH: No. What did you do after you graduated?
SM: I went into teaching—teaching high school English and really loved it. I taught in Marion, Virginia for two years in Southwestern Virginia, and I just loved the city and the people but I wanted to continue my education and Marion, Virginia is isolated off really. Roanoke is about an hour away, even Bristol was about 45 minutes away so it was just a really small area. I wanted to come back to Greensboro to get—I thought at the time I would be majoring in English and maybe even teach college English. When I taught for a couple of years I began to see that I would like to be given responsibilities in the high school where I was. I thought, I really like thinking in terms of going into administration. You know, here’s how naïve I was, Brittany; I didn’t really think about how there were no—at that time—women in these roles. There might be some females in the elementary schools. I didn’t really think about any of the problems that would emerge but began to do—and I liked the classes; I loved the master’s program that I did. I had a wonderful advisor named Joe Bryson, who was here, and had some wonderful professors. I just really found that stimulating. I continued and got my doctorate—something I was working toward for a lot of reasons. One, I think, if you are in education you need to get as much education as you can. The other would be as a woman, to have credential, such as Dr. Medley, helped me I think—for people to see I’m serious and that I have some knowledge that would be helpful—to look at me as a viable candidate. I worked on my master’s while I taught English. Had a wonderful—loved teaching for a long time but did feel I need the change. I then went into administration; I was an assistant principal for the junior high school one year, and then they asked me to change for the next year to help a new principal going into this other setting I just described to you. Then I became a principal at an elementary school and really began to appreciate what happens in elementary school because my experience had just been at the secondary level until then. I learned as much as I could about that; the programs and the youngsters. I really found that to be an area where I admired teachers so much because of what they do as elementary teachers. I was principal of that school and then was moved to another elementary, just briefly, because they were beginning middle schools and special programs and went to another—that was when I did go to another—that was junior high as principal. It had become a middle school and so it was first year implementation. I had to have training and education in middle schools so that I could step in to that role. I was there just a year and I enjoyed that but then went downtown and they asked me to be—I think it was assistant superintendent for the middle school programs, so I got to work in Greensboro, here with the six middle schools and then they have special programs like 11
for special children, counselors, psychologists, people at student services, and then I became associate superintendent for K-12 schools and supervised our two special schools here in Greensboro; McIver [C.D. McIver Education Center] and Gateway Education [Gateway Education Center] for the youngsters who were special needs. I enjoyed that. We merged into the Guilford County Schools and I was thinking more and more about going into college teaching. I stayed for two years when the merger went into effect; I had something like ninety-three schools and I was with student services then and had programs at the schools so it was like twenty-four-seven nonstop—always things—at ninety-three schools—happening in programs. So I thought, you know, it’s time for me to find something new. [chuckle] It was very challenging, so I retired and then taught, after a little sabbatical, taught in your graduate program—people who were getting their master’s or their doctorate in the school of administration or system wide administration.
BH: So, you taught here?
SM: Yes, in the School of Education.
BH: Oh, okay.
SM: School leadership program here.
BH: Yeah, yeah.
SM: I loved it because then I got to see—I had supervised school principals but it was an opportunity to go back and try to be helpful to them in ways that maybe my training had not been because of the development of the principal fellows, for example. Bright women, capable women—it was wonderful to see them coming on board. It was a new generation of principals; principals now are being hired—they are people who know curriculum, instruction, and the latest areas because you are held so accountable for scores and for the academic progress. You also have to know the leadership always in those areas as well as throughout the school. You are trusted with the care and safety of youngsters and of buildings—you learn a lot about building. This might be new for a lot of females but when you have a facility that is several million dollars—and you’re responsible for it—you quickly learn about roofs and all of the things that go into maintaining it properly. That’s why they are paying them more. I think they are realizing that principals have to be highly skilled in several areas and it’s hard to find people who will be skilled in all those areas. A lot of responsibility. I wish they would pay teachers much more and I’m very worried about the status of public education now and what is happening to our schools. It’s almost irreparable—the harm that has been done. The attack—some people call it the “war on public education”—so because I’m from the public education arena, I just hurt and hope there are ways we can find to carry us to a better day because there is so much happening in public schools, good and wonderful things, and we were on the way, in this state—if you want to talk about scores and with programs that were advanced that were well known nationally. People were coming here, like to Guilford County Schools, to see the things that we were doing with magnet 12
programs, with all kinds of alternative programs. We were just stellar in those ways. It’s just a pity to see the difference in what’s happening now.
BH: Well it seems like UNCG had a real impact on your life.
SM: It did. You’re right Brittany it did. I have great memories. You know, I had all kinds of experiences and memories and a lot of loyalty like so many of my classmates do.
[End of Interview]