Oral history interview with Angeline and S. C. Smith by Kathleen Hoke

              1
GREENSBORO VOICES/GREENSBORO CIVIL RIGHTS ORAL HISTORY
COLLECTION
INTERVIEWEE: Dr. S.C. [“Smitty”] and Mrs. Angeline Smith
INTERVIEWER: Kathy Hoke
DATE: September 28, 1989
Note: Tape of interview has significant slippage. Missing or unintelligible parts of the interview
due to this damage are indicated in the transcript by [unclear--tape malfunction].
[Begin Tape 1,Side A]
KATHY HOKE: This is Kathy Hoke. It’s September 28, 1989, and I’m speaking here today
in Greensboro with Dr. S.C. Smith and--
ANGELINE SMITH: Angeline.
KH: --and Mrs. Angela Smith.
AS: Angeline.
KH: Angeline Smith and--[pause] You want to just start over?
AS: [reading] Young people of today have no conception as to what some of the pioneers for
social justice encountered in bringing to fruition the few privileges they now enjoy. I
shall give only a few incidents and activities to prevent my going on endlessly.
Yes, we have come a long way in bettering human relations in Greensboro, in
achieving dignity and deserved respect since that Thanksgiving weekend in 1942 when I
paid my fare, mounted the bus, took the last short seat in the back of the bus. Upon our
arrival in Burlington [North Carolina], two white men who reeked with the smell of
liquor came aboard the overcrowded bus. The driver demanded that I get up for them. I
refused.
When we reached Graham, two policemen with clubs came aboard and asked,
“Where is that nigger woman?” I did not want to be beaten nor maimed in any way, and
at that time it was not fashionable to go to jail. Then, too, I had to work. It was the most
humiliating experience of my life as I stood all the way to Raleigh.
2
Upon my return to Greensboro, I related the harrowing episode to Mrs. Martha
Sebastian, a member of the Interracial Forum. I talked with my principal and with two
organizations. In each instance I was told that if I wanted to keep my job, it was best for
me to keep quiet about the incident.
During these turbulent years, there was a complaint that much delinquency
existed in a section of Warnersville. Dr. [William] Hampton, Mr. E.E. Smith, Mr.
Goldsboro[?], and I were appointed to a committee to meet with the Community Chest
Board to help plead for a recreational center. I said to the group that while our children
come home to a latchkey situation, their parents are taking care of your children and
preparing your meals. And our children have nowhere else to go but in the street. If they
had a center where they could be disciplined, I am sure the crime rate or the delinquency
rate would be less. We worked tenaciously for this cause to get a recreational center in
Warnersville and finally it became a realized fact.
A little later on, another problem presented itself. Duke Power planned to cut out
some of the bus schedules in our community, particularly on Asheboro, which is now
Martin Luther King Drive, and Gorrell Street. All the people who were there represented,
numbered just three Negroes. Al White, my husband S.C. Smith, and I went to the
hearing and protested to the effect that the Warnersville children would have no other
way to get to school. Our appeal was not considered until I stated that the domestic
workers in this area could not get to their jobs on time if some morning schedules were
lessened. [coughs] Those schedules were not changed.
At one of the Interracial Forum meetings, the Community Chest, which is now the
United Way, requested that the Forum voluntarily withdraw itself as an agency of the
Chest, because some of the small business companies said they would no longer support
the Community Chest if the Chest continued to allot the small sum of twenty-five dollars
a year for supplies for a mixed group. My retort to them that night was, “It is like asking
me to put my head on the chopping block.”
The next day, the daily paper quoted me in boldface type. This frightened me. I
became apprehensive as to whether someone would throw a rock against into [unclear--
tape malfunction] The interracial group did not voluntarily withdraw. The Community
Chest dropped the interracial group.
I feel duty bound to name some of the white unsung heroes who were[unclear--
tape malfunction] acts of strength during these turbulent times. Betsy and John R. Taylor,
Dr. and Mrs. Herschel [Beatrice] Folger, the Warren Ashbys, who taught at UNCG [The
University of North Carolina at Greensboro], Dr. and Mrs. Franklin Parker, who now is
teaching [unclear--tape malfunction]. Dr. and Mrs. Herschel Folger--I said them. The
Bardolphs--Dorothy Bardolph is now on city council [unclear--tape malfunction]. Mary
Taft [Tass?] Smith, Mary Francis Smith, Linda Richter[?] of Davie Street YMCA [Young
Men Christian Association], Anna Seaburg[?], Mrs. Leon Ellis[?], Masie Levinson[?],
Louise Broom[?], Heddie B. Harstook[?], and others. These dedicated Christians
3
cooperated and supported us in tilling the soil and planting the seeds for a better climate
here.
One example of our work together was this. Vance Chavis and Dr. Richard
Bardolph as a team, Mary Taft Smith and Angeline Smith as a team went from store to
store pleading for colored and white signs to be removed from the above drinking
fountains. Several unpleasant incidents occurred at the now nonexistent Meyer’s
Department Store.
For instance, I wanted to purchase a shirt for our son. When I asked the clerk to
let me see those on the shelf, her reply was, “There are some shirts on that table.” When I
kept insisting to see the others, she said to another clerk, “Niggers don’t know what they
want,” after which she asked my name.
I said, “Mrs. Smith.”
She said, “What is your first name?”
I said, “Mrs. S.C. Smith.”
She replied, “We don’t call niggers ‘Mrs.’.”
I went immediately to the manager’s office. Since I had been there before, Mr.
Joseph T. Martin and his secretary, Miss Spencer, knew me. I related the incident. When
he asked, “Which clerk was it?” I could not say a thing other than, “It was the one with
the red hair.”
The next time my husband and I went to Meyer’s, the young man who was
parking lot attendant said, “Oh, Mr. Smith. Your wife caused Mr. Martin to become so
upset that he called all of us in and told us to call everybody either Mr. or Mrs.”
During those same times, innumerable colored teachers, as they were called at
that particular time, and others from neighboring cities would spend their Saturdays
shopping in the Greensboro stores, especially at Meyer’s. They were faced with a lack of
decent restroom and dining facilities. [African American dentist] George Simkins asked
the AKA [Alpha Kappa Alpha] sorority to send a representative to talk with Mr. Martin.
The sorority sent me.
Prior to the first meeting with Mr. Martin about this particular matter, I checked
the facilities in the basement designed for colored. This room served as a storage place
for mops, brooms, buckets, et cetera. When I went upstairs to the restroom and lounge for
white ladies, the maid said to me, “You can’t go in there. The one for you is in the
basement.” I went in anyway and counted everything in there: lounging chairs,
magazine racks, floor lamps, wall-to-wall carpeting, and everything else.
All this information was presented to Mr. Martin. I said that colored patronage of
Meyer’s Department Store goes a long way to keeping this store open and added most of
the affluent white people shop in New York. He promised that the situation would be
improved. A few weeks later, Miss Spencer called and asked me to come and see the new
facilities for colored. Only a Coke machine and a Nabs dispenser had been added. The
brooms, mops, and buckets were still there.
4
A few months later the store sponsored a showing of new equipment, stoves and
Frigidaires. The newspaper advertisement said, “Sorry, no accommodations for colored.”
The NAACP [The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People]
and other organizations decided to engage in economic pressure by withdrawing their
charge accounts. This hurt the store very much. The business manager with whom I had
talked previously about that ad, and he had given me the run-around, called one night and
said the store would have a showing just for colored. My reply to her was that we were
not interested in what they were showing, because when money goes into your cash
register it knows no color. The economic squeeze continued until continued conditions
began to change.
Then there were other problems facing us. The media always had a flimsy excuse
for failing to project positive images of Negroes, or to publicize noteworthy events or
activities of our schools and community. Mr. Shepherd of the Daily News called my
principal and told him to fire me. The principal said, “Mr. Shepherd, you, too, are a
public servant, just as Mrs. Smith is. You [unclear--tape malfunction].”
Another courageous white person came to my rescue as I endured the slings and
arrows of [unclear--coughing]. The lady was Kate Garner, former director of Family Life
Council in Greensboro. Several of us by this time had sold dinners and had engaged in
other projects in order to get a building for the Pearson Street branch of the YWCA
[Young Women’s Christian Association] for our children. This was a struggle which only
those who shared in it would understand. The building is now used as a halfway house.
Later on, meetings were being held at Betsy Taylor’s home frequently,
concerning plans for desegregating the schools and the YWCA. The same starlet unsung
heroes joined the efforts of the NAACP with the determination to change the existing
conditions in Greensboro.
In 1953, a group of white women asked me to speak on the subject, “Implications
to be Expected If the Supreme Court Hands Down the Decision to Desegregate Public
Schools, and If So, What Can Teachers Do to Help?” The same group asked me to cut
short my planned summer vacation to stand in the receiving line at Davie Street YWCA
during a reception. This was a first. At the reception, a lady said, “This is the first time I
have ever seen [unclear--tape malfunction].” My reply to her was, “Well, you have
missed a lot.”
As we began to put into action our plans, we encountered threats, epithets being
hurled at our children, bricks being thrown through our windows, unethical handbills
being passed around, and lurid letters being sent to us. Fear tactics were engaged in by
rabble rousers. George Simkins, the resolute, zealous, tenacious man of our NAACP, was
harassed by being sent loads of eggs, a multiplicity of flowers, and other things which he
had never ordered.
During these turbulent times, we marched under threats of being burned by
lighted cigars and so forth. We were kicked, shoved, and spat on. One night as we
5
marched on Elm Street past the Mayfair Cafeteria where [owner] Boyd Morris had kept
Jessie Jackson from entering, if I had not pushed a Bennett [College] girl almost to the
pavement, she would have been burned by a man standing in a nook near Brownhill’s
store.
Yes, we have made strides over the years. The NAACP has been a stronghold
which has peered into the darkness of envy, prejudice, and the weaknesses of our land. At
present, the NAACP is still on the alert and can be attested to some recent happenings.
We have not fully overcome yet. Can you imagine that a council member said to
me the other day, “Angie, just look what we have given you.”
I said, “Please tell me what.”
He said “We’ve given you the district system.”
I said--and my reply to him was, “You did not give that to us. We started working
on that before you were even born.” And we laughed, the two of us laughed, because we
did start working on a ward system in 1968. It is now known as the district system.
We as Afro-Americans must fully consider action in advocating justice, peace,
freedom, economic stability, quality education, fair housing practices, rights and
privileges to enjoy all the essential things conducive to a wholesome and good life.
Despite the trials, tribulations and vicissitudes, we have kept the faith. We have kept our
fight before us, we have endured, and so far we have triumphed unscathed by it.
The [unclear--tape malfunction] have had some positive effects and changed some
attitudes. All of the hardships and many of the struggles paved the way for the four young
men who sought our counseling prior to the sit-in movement which reverberated around
the world. We have not overcome completely. Our trials are far from being over. We are
still being systematically bypassed in being appointed and elected to policy-making
boards and high-paying jobs. It seems to be an eternal struggle in our lives to attain the
things which we so rightfully deserve. We stand by and rest upon these deep victories.
KH: When did you write that?
AS: I had to deliver this to the--what’s the name of the place down there, the museum, the
historical museum?
KH: The Greensboro Historical Museum?
AS: Yes, that’s where it was.
KH: I see. So I could borrow that and make a copy of it, and return it to you in a few days?
AS: You know, I hate to answer this one. Now this is on. Don’t you want to cut that off for a
minute?
6
KH: I will turn it off if you like.
[recorder paused]
KH: I would like to ask the two of you some basic information about your background, where
you were born, and when you came to Greensboro, what year you were born, and maybe
you could tell something about your education.
AS: Oh yeah, [unclear--tape malfunction] and too, there are some things that he and I would
like for you to know about that you do not [unclear]. Is that on again?
KH: Yeah, the red light is on.
AS: For instance, some of the things that the civil rights [unclear--tape malfunction] vertical
versus the horizontal, [unclear--tape malfunction]. When I say “you people,” you young
people don’t know there was such a thing.
KH: I’m not sure I know what you mean by vertical.
AS: That’s what I know you don’t know. Let him tell you what it means by vertical.
SCS: They passed regulation when the integration was first brought about--was it before the
integration?
AS: It was before.
SCS: Before the integration. There was objection to the blacks eating in restaurants in public
places with the whites, and especially true in the public--
AS: Terminals.
SCS: --transportation terminals, airport terminals. So they passed the regulation of serving the
people standing up.
KH: Oh, that’s what we mean by vertical.
AS: That’s right. That’s right.
SCS: In all the airports, they had these counters around of people would go and buying the hot
7
dogs off the stands--no seats anywhere, but stand up and eating, to keep them from sitting
with the blacks.
AS: You said you wanted us to tell you about our age and where we were born.
SCS: I was born--
AS: You going to put that on tape too?
KH: It’s on. Yeah, the red light’s on.
AS: Okay.
SCS: I was born in South Carolina. My hometown is Blacksburg. I came from a rural area, out
from Blacksburg. And I came to Greensboro to go to school at A&T [North Carolina
A&T State University]. I came primarily to learn a trade. I continued my trade. And at
that time there were very few high schools in the state, and [unclear--tape malfunction]
the president of A&T saw a need for an accredited four-year high school, so he
inaugurated a four-year high school at A&T. Many people don’t know that A&T once
had a high school. So I did my high school work there. And--
KH: How old were you at this time?
SCS: I came to A&T when I was nineteen years old. One of my teachers said that I was an old
man when I came there.
KH: And what year was that? Do you remember what year?
SCS: Nineteen nineteen.
AS: That doesn’t startle you? Nineteen nineteen?
KH: Well, I think I’ve known before I came here that you’re eighty-nine years old, is that
right?
SCS: That’s right. And, yeah, I finished my high school and continued in college. I did my four
years of college at A&T and graduated in 1929. I was a student there over a period of
nine years. I dropped out for one year because of lack of funds. I couldn’t stay in, but I
came back and completed my work. And after leaving A&T, I went to [unclear--tape
malfunction] I worked in public schools. And--
8
KH: In Greensboro?
SCS: No. I went to, Kings Mountain was my first job. From Kings Mountain back to Winston-
Salem, from Winston-Salem to Goldsboro, and then back to Greensboro and on A&T’s
faculty. But in the meantime, I had gone to University of Michigan to do my graduate
work.
When I completed my graduate work in Michigan I was working at Goldsboro in
building trades, and the supervisor of trade and industrial education saw fit to name me as
assistant state supervisor to industrial education. And that I worked with for ten years,
until the president of A&T asked me to come back to head up the technical institute,
which was a separation of the trade school from the engineering school, and to start a
technical institute. A school of technology was our aim at that time. That took place in
1952. I was in that at A&T until I retired in 1967. Did I tell it all?
AS: Yes.
SCS: I tried to make it as brief as possible. I could have told a whole lot in between.
KH: Okay, well, that’s a good summary. And for you Mrs. Smith?
AS: He [unclear--tape malfunction] started a technical institute, [unclear--tape malfunction]
which is now--
SCS: School of Technology and Industrial Education.
AS: I am Angeline Smith. I was born [unclear--tape malfunction] and all during my youth
[unclear--tape malfunction] with the end in view of getting an education. When I was six
years old I refused to ride the bus. I have had this impelling force within me since I was a
child. I knew that I was somebody. I knew that I was as good as anybody else. [unclear--
tape malfunction] could feel that I was going to do something to cause the world to know
that I, too, [unclear--tape malfunction] my way through there.
However, we had some of the most beautiful teachers, [unclear--tape malfunction]
people who gave up their own [unclear--tape malfunction] for the other children. And if I
did not have adequate funds, they let me stay there anyway. And that is the reason that I
said whenever I got a job I said I’d was going to always send a contribution to Benedict
College [Columbia, South Carolina]. If it had not been for them, I could not have gotten
an education. Same with Dudley High School.
KH: What year was that?
9
AS: In 1942. [unclear--tape malfunction]
SCS: [unclear]
[all laugh]
AS: Over at A&T, which has been a stabilizing, he has been a stabilizing force in my life. I
keep saying to him, “You have been the finest thing that has ever happened to me,” and it
is true.
Then I taught at Dudley High School for twenty-nine years. They moved me to
Ben Smith, Ben L. Smith [High School].
KH: What year did you move to--
AS: Nineteen seventy two. Everybody was so sweet and nice and kind, but they did not give
me a stationary homeroom. They did not give me a filing cabinet to keep my materials in.
They gave me the largest classes. Every hour on the hour I had to go from one room to
another, and had to carry all my material under my arms. And when four little white
children saw what was happening to me, they specified who would come and carry my
books. They would check on me to see how people were treating me.
I ordered books from New York so those children would have something
[unclear--tape malfunction] to read, to study. [unclear--tape malfunction] afternoons and
sit at that typewriter [unclear--tape malfunction] lesson plans for those children, because I
liked all those children. They knew I loved them, too, because they still write to me, I
write to them. Me and my granddaughter would prepare [unclear--tape malfunction]
typewriter and get out work for them, so they would have something to do everyday.
When I saw my next semester’s plans [unclear--tape malfunction], I showed them
to [unclear--tape malfunction] my schedule, they had made it just as heavy as they
possibly could. Several of the white parents wrote letters that came to my principal,
“Don’t let Mrs. Smith [unclear--tape malfunction] something that they had not gotten
before she takes her lunch. [unclear—-tape malfunction] “Would you come back and
substitute?” I said, “No, I would rather stay here with my children if I were going to
[unclear-—tape malfunction] under these circumstances.” [unclear]
So those same children who would flock around me and would just educate me as
to what had been going on, how [unclear] those children were being taught [unclear--tape
malfunction] I was the only who comes out there with a plan. “You’re not supposed to do
anything but baby-sit with us, you’re not supposed to make us work when our regular
teacher is absent.”
And sometimes they would put such classes on me as internal combustion. What
10
did I know about internal combustion? So I said, “Here, let me make out a plan [unclear]
to teach French.” I had never had French. I had Spanish and Latin. I always had some
material from our [unclear--tape malfunction] to bring in my lessons and other things.
Well, I felt this way, that they [unclear--tape malfunction] that they were putting on a
facade, and making me feel that, oh, they were so delighted to have me work. I felt the
children were very responsive. The only trouble I had so far as the children [unclear--tape
malfunction]
KH: A Native American?
AS: A Native American.
[unclear--tape malfunction]
KH: Okay, I did meet him once about two years ago. I don’t think he remembers me.
AS: [Unclear--tape malfunction] I have followed some of those white children right on
through college [unclear--tape malfunction] recommendations.
SCS: You know she is asking you about desegregation, she did not say integration.
AS: Yes, we had not integrated.
KH: Can you explain?
AS: Well, I feel that some attitudinal barriers will have to come down before they will accept
us as people. For instance, they were very sweet to me there.
KH: When you say “they,” you mean the teachers?
AS: I’m talking about the teachers. Not all of them. Some of them were very, very lovely, and
are still very good friends of ours. But some of them had this sort of cold [unclear--tape
malfunction] didn’t mind asking me to do something for them.
KH: And the principal there at the school at the time? What was his leadership like?
AS: Well, he was trying to be nice. For one thing, he did ask my husband and me to write up a
sketch about Dr. James B. Dudley.
SCS: --to recommend somebody in the first place [unclear--both talking at once].
11
AS: To recommend some black, Negro. You know, we’ve been called so many things, Negro,
nigger, Afro-Americans, and all that. But anyway, a colored person or Negro,
recommended to go into the Hall of Fame. So my husband and I wrote out the sketch of
Dr. James B. Dudley, and that was the person for whom our Dudley High School was
named. Let’s go to page fifty-three.
SCS: [Unclear--tape malfunction] while she’s looking for that. He was president of A&T when
I came there. I knew him personally, was one reason we could write up something about
him.
AS: You don’t need to read this, but I was just trying to show you that we did that. And he is
the first and the only Negro who was in the North Carolina Association of Education and
Educators.
SCS: I’d like to add one other thing about my early life. I came to A&T, as I told you, to learn
a trade and I elected to take bricklaying.
KH: I see. Why did you choose bricklaying?
SCS: Well, I guess, I think that, I had an uncle who was a stone mason. I think that influenced
me, and I always had an interest in the building area. So it turned out that it was very
fruitful for me because I had to work my way through school and each summer I would
work at my trade frequently. And then that’s the way I got through the nine years of
school, mainly from bricklaying. And I wanted to add that during that time, I helped build
Aycock Auditorium.
AS: And that’s your school now. Aycock Auditorium.
SCS: As a student--
KH: That’s a beautiful building.
SCS: --I went down there when it was just coming out of the ground, and stayed there until it
was completed, as a bricklayer, as an apprentice, bricklayer apprentice. That’s a pleasant
memory of mine regarding that.
KH: The two of you met in 1942, is that right?
SCS: Nineteen forty-two.
12
KH: Can you tell us something about how you met?
AS: Yes.
SCS: She loves to tell that. She loves to tell that. So I will add something good, but she has to
tell it.
AS: I was going in the dining hall one day, living in the--
KH: The dining hall of A&T?
AS: Yes, which is Murphy Hall. And I saw this clean [unclear--tape malfunction] going to be
my husband. I didn’t know him, I had never met him, I didn’t know if he was married or
single. But this is reason I think that God was on my side. I had come [unclear--tape
malfunction] I did not [unclear--tape malfunction] say anything to him then. But then one
day I was going up to the library and he was coming down from the library, we’d been on
the [unclear--tape malfunction].
SCS: That’s my part.
AS: That’s your part. [all laugh]
SCS: I had gone up, I was on my way up to the library on the second floor in Dudley Building,
and met her coming down. Our eyes met and we just simply said, “How do you do?” But
she impressed me so greatly till I forgot what I went upstairs for. I said, “I’m going back
down to see if I see that lady again.” And sure enough as I came out from the building
there she was coming back to the building up the walk and said to me, “Do you know
Mike Townes?” Oh my gosh, I was devastated, she’s interested in Mike Townes and not
me.
AS: And I didn’t even know Mike Townes. I simply knew his sister in Atlanta. But I wanted
to have something to say to him, see.
SCS: That was all that was said at that time.
AS: And then I was running for Miss A&T and I went to his office. See, at that time he was
working for the state [unclear--tape malfunction]. And that was another [unclear--tape
malfunction].
13
SCS: You didn’t tell the whole story about the votes.
AS: You tell that.
SCS: The votes were five cents. I bought one vote with this in mind, that, now I buy one vote
and she’ll come back to sell me another one. But it didn’t work out that way.
AS: But then I went by in the afternoon during [unclear--tape malfunction] thinking that he
would say hello to me. Looking back [unclear--cough] anyway, he came out and then he
asked me how long I would be over there that afternoon [unclear--tape malfunction]
everything to me you know. I’ll show you this picture of us when we first got married.
KH: [unclear] I guess I just wanted to know how you met. [unclear--tape malfunction]
together pretty fast after that.
AS: Pretty fast, yes, but I think it was [unclear--tape malfunction].
KH: --after the time [unclear--tape malfunction].
AS: Yes, I can remember the NAACP [unclear--tape malfunction] every position [unclear--
both talking at once].
SCS: I have worked scouts, boy scout troops. I never was a scout myself, but I was a scouter,
have been since 1934.
AS: He worked for United Services for Older Adults [unclear--tape malfunction] first two
presidents of Older Adults. Was that Dorothy Bodtle[?]? And he was [unclear--tape
malfunction] was the first president and he was the second.
SCS: [unclear]
AS: That station’s purpose is to help transport.
KH: Well, back in the 1940s when you joined the NAACP [unclear--tape malfunction]?
AS: Those were the same things that I mentioned. I’m going to let you [unclear--tape
malfunction]. Anyway, this mentions something about the NAACP [unclear--tape
malfunction] organization advocating justice so forth and so on.
KH: How many members were there at that time?
14
AS: Oh, it was pretty large. If you wanted to talk to Dr. Simkins he could tell you that better
than we could. But it was a growing organization because we knew that we had to have
concerted [unclear--tape malfunction].
Now when those boys who I taught, two of them, Ezell Blair, David [Richmond],
two of the four students [unclear--tape malfunction] came back to Dudley High School to
ask me what I thought about their participating in the sit-in. [unclear--tape malfunction] I
can’t sit in, my husband can’t either, but we can support you financially, [unclear--tape
malfunction] morally, spiritually, any other way. We just can’t go down there because we
would lose our jobs. [unclear--tape malfunction] some kind of finances to help you all
when you get into trouble. When those children were being put in jail out there--do you
remember what it was called, darling? Evergreens?
SCS: It was the--
AS: It was the former Evergreens.
KH: It was a hospital? The TB [tuberculosis] hospital?
AS: That’s right.
SCS: No. It was for this--what was that that came out in the news? [A&T President Ferdinand
D.] Bluford never could pronounce it.
KH: Tuberculosis?
SCS: No. Crippling disease that came.
KH: Epilepsy?
AS: No
KH: Polio?
AS: Polio, yes, Polio, poliomyelitis.
SCS: I think they called it something else.
AS: Poliomyelitis, that’s what it was.
15
SCS: That was what the building was built for.
AS: Then they have a building over here on Yanceyville Street where the--my girl who’s head
of that section of parks [unclear--tape malfunction]. We would call her up and say,
“Could you put the coffee pot on.” [laughs]
SCS: Bennett.
AS: Bennett. Joanne Bennett. Joanne Bennett. Parks and Recreation uses that building now.
They would put our children in there. Boys and girls having to use the same restroom
when we would get food, washcloths, the necessities, toothpaste, toothbrushes, hotdogs,
hamburgers, cook a turkey, and everything else to feed these children.
SCS: Our daughter was quite active in those days too.
KH: Was she arrested?
SCS: Yes, she was arrested and put in jail. She and a group went down east, all the way down
to Goldsboro demonstrating and that’s where she was put in jail, in Goldsboro. And they
left Goldsboro to come back and they were determined to see the governor. So they made
it a point to come to the governor’s mansion before he got away in the morning. So they
went there before daylight and sat on his steps, waiting for him to come out. And to their
surprise, when he came out, he invited them in for breakfast.
KH: [unclear--tape malfunction] talk about what he had to say to them?
SCS: I don’t remember. I don’t remember the issues of the day because they were taken by
surprise that he welcomed them in for breakfast. But that, I think it was that same
governor who said publicly, “Now you who’ve been demonstrating, we know now what
you want. Now it’s time for you to stop. You ought to stop now. We know what you
want.” Said nothing in the world about what they were going to do about it.
KH: Was it governor, is it--
AS: [Terry] Sanford.
KH: Sanford.
AS: See there were some forces, just like we have some forces in Greensboro.
16
SCS: And during that time, the powers from Raleigh were bearing down on the administration
at A&T. “Why on earth don’t you get those students out of the street? You better get
those students out of the street.” And they were bringing heavy pressure on him.
KH: On President Bluford?
SCS: No.
KH: He wasn’t there at that time?
SCS: No. Bluford was dead then. Yes, Bluford was dead.
AS: Is it all right to name [unclear--tape malfunction]?
SCS: I think it’s alright.
AS: President [Lewis C.] Dowdy.
SCS: President Dowdy. And Dowdy--I was on the administrative council at that time and they
were bringing so much pressure to bear on him. And he called a council meeting to ask us
to give him some advice, some direction. And I was at a loss to know what to tell him.
And no other member of the council was able to come up with anything to tell him, and
actually I think he tried. He left but he had to make some kind of response to--because
they were putting so much pressure on him.
KH: What were they doing, and who is “they”? The governor’s office? The legislature?
SCS: I don’t know. It came from--
AS: It came from Raleigh.
SCS: --from Raleigh. Who it was, whether it was the governor or what not, but people in power
in Raleigh who had the authority over the educational system, over A&T.
KH: And could take money away from them?
SCS: Could take money away from them and could do anything to them. Could handle them
any kind of way [unclear--both talking]. And they demanded that he make a reply to their
requests, and he did. And his reply was publicized, which the students didn’t like. It was
a kind of a give-in because naturally he was under pressure, and he could not, he was not
17
in a position to stand up.
AS: Because he had to have a job, just like I had to have a job.
SCS: So the students took his--
AS: They attempted to burn him [unclear--tape malfunction]
SCS: They were going out to burn him in effigy. And I remember so well that I met Ezell Blair,
one of the students with the sit-in, in the hallway, and I said, “Now, what do you think
about the president’s response?” He said, “They sold us down the river.” Then I took that
opportunity to tell him the predicament that the president was in and his hands were tied.
He couldn’t have done much better, so they dropped the idea of burning him in effigy.
AS: This is what he and I did. We drove around [unclear--tape malfunction] to meetings that
these boys were having and tried to teach and not just to jump in full force.
KH: So the younger people had a different view of how to change things?
AS: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
SCS: And speaking of this pressure from Raleigh, I don’t remember that I knew who it was,
but somebody in authority called one night, midnight, to the president over there.
“What’s the matter that you can’t get those children out of the street? You better get those
children out of the street.” Of course now, when Gibbs--it was still going on when
[Warmoth T.] Gibbs came president. And they started pressuring him, and his answer to
them, “We teach our children here to think--
AS: How to think.
SCS: --how to think not what to think.” And he ignored the matter of trying to get them out of
the street. We have been pressurized, we’ve been pressurized--
AS: And we still are.
SCS: When I was appointed assistant state supervisor, I went to my superior in Raleigh and
asked him--it was at the time when the country had realized that we had a shortage of
skilled labor for building ships, that World War II was coming on. And they were having
special classes in order to try to get people trained to serve in that capacity. And they
were organizing classes in white schools all over the state, and I was concerned about
18
getting them organized in the black schools.
I got in the midst of that. I was in a high school and had organized a class in auto
mechanics and one in carpentry there. But I didn’t know really what the background, or
how to go about it. So I went to my boss and asked him, “Now what can I do about
organizing these defense classes in the Negro schools?” [unclear--noise, tape paused] I
went back to his office the next day and I said [unclear--tape malfunction]
[End Tape 1, Side A--Begin Tape 1, Side B]
SCS: I was a boy who graduated from A&T, went down to Sanford, got a job in a machine
shop, worked three days, and [unclear--tape malfunction] this job. [unclear--noise] and he
looked me straight in the eye, and he says, “We cannot afford to offer training for people
for jobs they can’t get”. And that’s my boss, I’m on a new job now. So I said no more to
him about it but I didn’t stop pressing to get those classes started back.
I kept on hammering away at it until finally, I wasn’t making much progress. And
somehow or another, the national office, which is Manpower Training, was--the office
was located in Atlanta. The word had gotten to them somehow or other that they weren’t
giving any training for the Negroes in North Carolina. And he called a meeting in
Durham, at a hotel in Durham, and asked President Bluford to send somebody to that
meeting. And President Bluford sent me.
I was working in the eastern part of the state that week. I came back by my boss’s
office in Raleigh and sat down and reported to him verbally what I had done in the
eastern part of the state. Said nothing to him about my being, going to this meeting in
Durham.
I spent the night in Raleigh and went on down to Durham the next morning and
walked in that lobby of the hotel. First person I saw was my boss. And he just looked at
me like he was so happy to see me and I was his long, lost cousin. “Come on over here
and sit with me, let’s sit at the table.”
So when the meeting was opened, the man from Atlanta representing the
government said, “Our purpose here today is to find out what is being done in defense
training for Negroes in North Carolina.” Then he looked right straight at my boss and
said, “Mr. Carvey?”
He said, “Why ask me, why ask me? I don’t know!”
So he started out then trying to tell about some training that was going on,
something, there was a class going on in Winston-Salem. I had asked about it. I had went
over there and found a machine shop class going. I didn’t know what was what. I came
back and asked him, he didn’t know anything about it. But when he was pressed with
this, he told about the class in Winston-Salem [unclear].
As a result of this, they took the defense training away from him and gave it to
another man all together, and away from [unclear--tape malfunction]. [laugh] But they
19
placed another person, a black from Greensboro who served as assistant supervisor for
defense training. And then they got some good ones going.
But that’s the type of thing that we’ve been fighting. And in the midst of that
whole program, in that defense training, I went to a machine shop. They said to us, “You
cannot train, have a training course for occupations unless there’s employment.” And we
had to verify that employment locally in order to train them for the job [unclear].
So we went to a machine shop and asked them if they [unclear--tape malfunction].
“You know better than that. You know that Negroes can’t get any jobs in machine
shops.” And there were two ladies with me--I was working as the state supervisor then--
and these two ladies from the local high school went with me to that. And we all just
laughed at him, and then he changed and said, “Well, maybe the day will come when that
will happen, but not now.”
KH: So by and large, there weren’t many war jobs for black people during, during the war?
SCS: During the--and that defense training was some hurry-up training, because they were
short of help, but they still would not train the blacks in those certain areas. And I had a
conference of my teachers every summer at A&T and I would invite different people to
speak. I always tried to get the state supervisor, who was my boss, but at one meeting he
couldn’t come. But he sent another assistant supervisor who was white to represent him
at the meeting. And when he got up to speak, he emphasized with all emphasis, “I don’t
understand why you’re trying to get training in auto mechanics and machine shops and
electronics, when there are so many other things you could train your folks for.”
AS: Well, you know what that sounds like? Our granddaughter was out at Page High School--
and I don’t know whether you know anything about Page--but the two white counselors
said to her, “You are not [unclear--tape malfunction] child.”
KH: What year was this?
AS: This was 1972. [unclear--tape malfunction] all over the school crying. Okay, after
[unclear--tape malfunction] of retired school personnel [unclear--tape malfunction] One
of those counselors was on his committee and she had to come here to a meeting. And I
said to her, “You know, Angeline has her master’s degree from the University of
California. She is supervisor of seventeen people [unclear--tape malfunction].” You know
what she said to me, “I always did know Angeline was a smart girl.”
[KH laughs]
AS: But do you see how that followed the line of Jonathan Kozol’s book, Death at an Early
20
Age? I had my students to read that. I ordered those books, I liked to see colored children
read all of this kind of material so they would see what had been happening to us through
the years [unclear--tape malfunction]. Things happened to me. Things that happened to
our forefathers. [unclear--tape malfunction] that child now could run circles around
[unclear--tape malfunction]. She is teaching us a whole lot. And I think she could have
taught that teacher a whole lot.
But, you see how our children are being crushed, you just don’t know. Things are
done to them in the classroom. Some of our former students have come back to tell us
that at Duke [University] and [the University of North Carolina at] Chapel Hill, the big
universities, when they raise their hands [unclear--tape malfunction] it crushes, retarded,
same word, retarded. One lady came to us not long ago. [unclear--tape malfunction] I
don’t know whether it’s that or not because--
KH: That is a big group that’s real controversial.
AS: Yes. Listen, we taught some of the most knowledgeable, some of the best trained students
who are making the finest of situations all over [unclear--tape malfunction] don’t have
the disciplinary problems that they say they are encountering. I think they are making
disciplinary problems. When you crush a child, he is going to resort to fighting back. If
you don’t believe it, listen to some of these programs that come on television, Donahue
and Oprah, and all the rest. They’re going to fight back. One lady came over and said
they had put her child in [unclear--tape malfunction]
KH: What year was this?
AS: This was about three or four years ago. It was about the time when you and I stayed at
that board of education meeting until one thirty one morning. They tried to crush us so
that night that they were going to make us leave without their going through the full
program. And we were determined to stay. [unclear--tape malfunction] Can you imagine
staying from seven o’clock to one-thirty in the morning? And they even moved us from
the board of education to Weaver Center, and we were all there and stood one hour
waiting for them to come and open the door.
SCS: And you didn’t explain how they moved us, how they--it was [unclear]. The fire chief
came and interrupted the program and said, “There are too many people in here. You’re
breaking--you’ve got to get them out,” as the meeting was just getting started. And so
then, they first said go to Dudley High School but the people objected to that. They were
afraid to go to Dudley High School, [laugh] for some reason.
AS: That’s a myth too.
21
SCS: Yeah. We ended up going to Weaver Center. So we all marched over to the Weaver
Center and the doors were locked. And we stood out there, I guess, an hour before they
opened the doors [unclear--tape malfunction] make us go back home. But we stayed until
about two o’clock in the morning.
AS: I think we accomplished something. [unclear--tape malfunction] one fight right after
another. [unclear--tape malfunction] you never know what we have [unclear--tape
malfunction].
SCS: --probably haven’t kept up, you haven’t paid any attention to the YMCA situation.
KH: The Hayes-Taylor Y? The controversy about that?
AS: You know about that? You know something about that?
KH: Not a whole lot, but I guess I know a little bit about it.
SCS: We’ve been in the middle of that. We’ve been in the middle of that.
AS: [unclear--tape malfunction] what you came here for--
KH: Well, let’s talk a little about that for a little while. You said in your opening remarks that
you and many other parents were pushing for a youth center. I imagined that what that
developed into was the Y.
AS: Well, no. We had a Y over here, but we needed one in Warnersville. You don’t know
anything about Warnersville, do you?
KH: Well, that’s roughly this area, isn’t it, or is it a little farther west? Sort of southwest
Greensboro, is that right? Smith High School is sort of in Warnersville, is that right?
SCS: No. Smith High School is beyond Warnersville. Warnersville is just a little ways over,
but this side of Elm Street.
AS: The Price School over in Warnersville is what GTCC [Guilford Technical Community
College] is using now. That’s part of it.
KH: Okay. So back when you were pushing for a youth center over in Warnersville--
22
AS: Over there. And see, those children had to come long distances to get to the one Negro
high school when there were other high schools nearer them. And this was what I was
fighting for about that transportation when they wanted to cut out the early morning
schedules. Am I right on that Smitty? On Gorrell Street and Asheboro Street, all the
children wouldn’t have been able to get to Dudley, see? And then when I hit it, them,
“All right, you cut out those, and your cooks and your maids and your janitors couldn’t
get up to your house.”
SCS: I believe, Angie, actually, we’re getting away from what you’re looking for when we
start talking about that.
KH: Oh, there’s a lot of things that we can talk about, and we don’t have to talk about
everything today. But if you like, we can talk about Hayes-Taylor and the history of
Hayes-Taylor. I’ve read William Chafe’s book, Civilities and Civil Rights.
AS: But listen, he was not accurate.
SCS: He was misinformed.
AS: We wanted him to come out to the coliseum so that we could challenge him, and he failed
to come. That was about two or three years ago. As you say, he was misinformed about a
lot of this. He did not march once, did not do anything with those two children who came
from Dudley who were part of the sit-in. They had no part in helping with this civil rights
movement. [unclear--tape malfunction]
SCS: [unclear--tape malfunction] the president, former president of A&T who had nothing to
do with it as speaker.
AS: See? See what I’m talking about? And this is what we are experiencing so far as the Y is
concerned. They would go out and get people who can be bought. They don’t get the real
people who are interested and who--we don’t care, we don’t want our pictures in the
paper, but they get in there.
And we say, “No, we are not going to work for the coliseum bond because for
thirty-some years you have promised us this, that, and the other thing, and they have
never come to fruition. So we are not going to help to amass the black vote to vote for a
coliseum bond.”
SCS: Since you mentioned coliseum, I might make just a little further comment about that
coliseum, about our reason for not supporting it. Number one, they have not given our
people employment out there. Over the years, even people picking up trash outside are
23
whites with bags on their shoulder.
And then for this misappropriation of funds out there, misappropriation of funds
and our city fathers seemed to have thought nothing about it. In fact, defended them till I
just can’t bring myself around to supporting something like that. It ought to be self-supporting
in my estimation, and here they are begging for money, wanting us to vote for
bonds for the coliseum. And yet people out there operating the coliseum are
misappropriating funds. It just doesn’t make sense to me. And we have just [unclear--tape
malfunction].
KH: [unclear-tape malfunction] coliseum’s events in the early years, about the coliseum
commissioner getting attempt to [unclear--tape malfunction]
SCS: [unclear--tape malfunction] serve the public [unclear--both talking at once]
KH: Yeah, to serve the public in terms of the black residents of Greensboro.
SCS: So far as I know, it ran very well to start with. It seemed like it broke down over years
when they began to find a way that they could hide the money and direct it in someway
other than where it’s supposed to go, and it got all wrapped up in that. But so far as I
recall, it ran pretty nicely to start with. But of course, I don’t think they ever fully gave
employment to blacks, and they pretty much lily white things so far as the working group
out there. Now--
KH: What I was going to say about Hayes-Taylor YMCA--this is something I remembered
from William Chafe’s book--it was named after Caesar Cone’s two [unclear--tape
malfunction] Hayes and Taylor, I believe, were their last names?
AS: That’s right.
SCS: [unclear--tape malfunction] it was interesting and something to be appreciated. They did
that and Hayes-Taylor served a wonderful purpose. Many men came through there, I
think it was the [unclear--tape malfunction] from Hayes-Taylor and it ran beautifully.
And it was a noble thing of Cone to give it. Cone gave that, don’t you know. Greensboro
has not contributed a penny.
AS: [Unclear--tape malfunction]
SCS: Love gave the swimming pool, and [unclear--tape malfunction] then that’s all been there,
and we had blacks pulling hen’s teeth to get even the necessities of upkeep and repairs. I
was chairman of the building and grounds committee there and we needed a boiler. And
24
we had to maneuver like everything until finally the chairman of Metropolitan, board
chairman of the building properties with the Metropolitan board, Mr. King, he just put his
foot down, and said, “We got to buy a boiler for Hayes-Taylor. We’re going to buy a
boiler for Hayes-Taylor.” And the boiler was bought.
But the [unclear--tape malfunction] Metropolitan Board was hedging on the thing,
“no money, no money.” They still to this day they haven’t done anything until now, and
they’ve been more or less forced to do what they’ve done so far. And because they’ve
been forced, there’s somebody--I don’t know who it is, I can’t put my finger on it--but
there’s somebody in power who is throwing stumbling blocks on us every chance they
get. And I believe, firmly believe, that there’s somebody who would just love to see the
thing stopped right where it is now.
AS: And not be completed. Yet there are some white people in Greensboro who are so lovely,
and there are even some of the men who cried over the way it went. We had some
dedicated people who have stuck with us since the forties, they are still our close friends.
SCS:[unclear--tape malfunction] to see his side of it, and made this statement, “I don’t
understand why Hayes-Taylor board doesn’t have confidence in us.” We said, “You
shouldn’t worry about [unclear--tape malfunction] that, just see how you’ve disappointed
us over the years, [unclear--tape malfunction] promises, promises, and promises, and
never any come to fruition.” So I think we kind of changed him on that. But they made
some beautiful promises and wrote us a letter.
AS: Loveliest letter. And then when Smitty was not able to go to the meeting that day, they
said I had to come to represent him. So I went. He put his arms around me and said, “Did
you get a letter from me?”
I said, “Yes.”
He said, “Well, you all haven’t answered it.”
I said, “We’re going to answer it.”
I came on back home triumphantly saying to Smitty--Smitty was in bed because
he had a terrible cold [unclear--tape malfunction]. I sat down and wrote in pencil what I
thought both of us would say and I read it to him. He said, “Don’t you send that letter.”
I’m so glad I didn’t send that letter.
SCS: The point was thanking him for what he said he was going to do. Wait until he does it,
then thank him.
KH: I see. I’d like to switch gears back to education, and [unclear--tape malfunction] the
Supreme Court came down with the Brown [v. Board of Education] issue. What was
going on that day in your lives, and what do you remember about hearing the news about
25
the Brown decision?
SCS: I’ll let you talk because I really don’t believe I can respond to it very well, because I
don’t know where I was. I don’t remember that day, actually.
AS: Well, I remember that because, see, in 1953 I had written, I had delivered this speech at
the Y. They had asked me to deliver this speech [unclear--tape malfunction],
“Implications to be Expected If the Supreme Court Hands Down the Decision to
Desegregate Public Schools, and If So, What Can Teachers Do to Help?” At the time, I
was so [unclear--tape malfunction] out the immediate situation in Greensboro, where we
had to supply our own construction paper. I had to buy [unclear] cassette to make tapes
out of my little salary. And I had to buy [unclear--tape malfunction] for the journalism
class. And we weren’t getting these things, and senior high had a whole of those things
on the shelf that they weren’t even using till I became cynical. I said, “Oh, they’re not
going to do anything, they’re not going to change things.”
You know, the giants of circumstances cause us a lot of times to become cynical,
to feel that, “Oh, you’re not going to live up to your promises.” They’re just going to say,
“Yes, we’re going to change things and we’re going to desegregate the schools,” and all
like that. [unclear--tape malfunction] we began to think about, “Well now, what’s going
to [unclear--tape malfunction]”. All of that came into our minds.
SCS: [Unclear--tape malfunction] That is past tense.
KH: Let’s go back to the fifties.
AS: I’m back to the fifties.
SCS: They immediately got rid of the black principals ,made them assistant superintendents.
AS: But at that time, we said, “What might they do with the black principals and the black
teachers?” And what we were thinking then, [Alvin] Toffler was thinking that same
thing, you know. And you all were thinking that, too, because you discussed it the
Teachers’ Association meeting down there in Raleigh.
And just what we were thinking then is just what started happening and to the
degree now that they’re making it now so difficult with these exams that they’re getting
ready to start up. Merit exams. [unclear--tape malfunction] measure a good teacher.
There is no yardstick. We were discussing that way back then, honey. You were one of
the ones discussing it.
SCS: Yeah, I know that.
26
AS: How are you going to measure--okay. Now there is lady who knew a whole lot more
English than I did, but she [unclear--tape malfunction] always say even right now. I just
got a letter from one of my girls in New York [unclear--tape malfunction] saying that I
not only taught her, I would put my arms around children and say, “You can do it.”
SCS: We had a physics teacher over at A&T who was really prepared. [unclear--tape
malfunction] get my stuff, and I didn’t have a chance to say to him, but I do have this
expression, that if a student doesn’t learn, the teacher hasn’t taught.
AS: [unclear--tape malfunction] see that thing coming, way back there because--
KH: You could see the Brown decision coming?
AS: [Unclear--tape malfunction] it did come, or become a reality--what were you going to
say?
SCS: Yeah, I would agree with that.
KH: I’m sorry, are you saying that when the decision came, you weren’t all that excited
because it seemed like things were going to move slowly anyway?
AS: We were hoping that it would change positively. But we had been disappointed so much
in the past by so many things and so many promises, and what we had been robbed of, we
just felt, these people aren’t going to change.
KH: Is that when the Greensboro School Board a few days after [unclear--tape malfunction]
the resolution?
AS: Mr. [Edward] Hudgins said, “Yes.” Mr. Hudgins said, “Yes, we are going to
desegregate.”
SCS: Chairman of the two school boards.
AS: Yes, he was chairman--
KH: And the superintendent at the time, what was his name?
SCS: [unclear--tape malfunction]
27
KH: That’s right.
AS: Ben L. Smith. And I want you to know that the night when I delivered this in 1953,
before [unclear--tape malfunction] decision. This same Betsy Taylor that I told you we
would go out to her home because she had a swimming pool out there [unclear--tape
malfunction]. I thought everybody knew Priscilla Taylor.
KH: No. I know the name. I believe it’s on our list of people to be interviewed.
AS: I bet so. Well, anyway, Priscilla [unclear--tape malfunction] out from Greensboro, a big
lake [unclear--tape malfunction] night, Betsy and John R. Taylor came and put their arms
around me and said, in the presence of my superintendent, Ben L. Smith, “When
integration comes, we want Mrs. Angeline Smith to teach our children.” Don’t you know
he just walked away. Am I telling the truth?
SCS: You’re telling the truth. He did more than walk away, he created a conversation with
somebody nearby so as to have a reason for turning away.
KH: He seemed uncomfortable or rude?
SCS: Yes.
AS: Yes. Of course, he had to abide by [unclear--tape malfunction].
SCS: The legislator, or was he governor, what was he? No he came out with the “Freedom of
Choice.”
AS: Yes, yes.
KH: Pearsall--
AS: Pearsall Plan.
SCS: Pearsall Plan.
AS: Pearsall Plan, that is right, yes.
[pause]
AS: Of course, we don’t think that--
28
KH: How did you view the Pearsall Plan? What were your thoughts on that?
SCS: It was not far removed from segregation. It was still segregation, right on.
KH: Stalling tactic?
AS: Yes. Yes.
SCS: Yes, that’s right, stalling. They were very, very good at that. [laughs]
AS: Busing had not achieved what we thought. Desegre[gation]--integration has never come.
But desegregation came, but hasn’t had the results that we thought it would have had,
[unclear--tape malfunction] we don’t have people at the [unclear--tape malfunction]
living by precept an example of the democratic way of life and the Christian way of life.
SCS: Are you aware of the fact that there was a time when the Negro teacher [unclear--tape
malfunction]?
KH: Even out in the fifties?
AS: White teachers were getting bonuses and we were not. We had to go and supervise the
ball games. [unclear--tape malfunction] This was a great help to us, because we had the
cooperation [unclear--tape malfunction] the most beautiful rapport--
SCS: And it gave you to know the background from where these students come.
AS: From whence these children came. Because as I visited some of those homes, I would cry
because I didn’t see how a child could come from that poverty stricken home [unclear--
tape malfunction]. [Door opens] I know this isn’t a part of what you are here for, but
since you’re talking about the schools--[unclear--tape malfunction]. I had not, if it hadn’t
been for me, he would have been a school dropout.
KH: What’s his name?
AS: His name is Dr. Charles Brooks. He has a television program, Breath of Life, on Sunday
night, and he talks all over the world.
KH: Wow.
29
AS: Yes. [Unclear--tape malfunction] he was in my class when he was working with me on
the cloth. And that’s his picture. I know this is not a part of it, but I think you ought to
know about some of these things.
KH: You must have lots of--
AS: This is one of my students.
KH: --students.
AS: He sent this to the two of us.
KH: This hilltop?
AS: He is retiring as president of--
SCS: Howard University.
KH: Howard. Oh.
AS: --of Howard University. These are my girls. I was just letting you know about what we
did with our children. This really wasn’t the one I was looking for. This one, master
teacher Barbara McGill. I taught her. And I could show you some pictures of the white
children and what they are doing, and their children.
SCS: Since you said this, it is probably not what she’s asking for, but this comes to mind. It’s a
little story. I’ve told so many times and I’m afraid you’ve heard it before, but I doubt if
you’ve heard it. You know, the classes when they have their reunion, most of them ask
Angeline, invite her to classes she taught. They would ask her to speak to them. On one
occasion, the girl who was introducing her said, “Mrs. Smith made me what I am today.”
And a voice from way in the back said, “Don’t blame that on her.” [Laughs]
KH: [Laughs] And did everyone laugh?
SCS: Oh yes, they laughed. They were proud of that.
AS: The children are not getting today what they got from the black teachers years ago.
SCS: Angie used to go to--when the boy’s absent from class, she’d go to his house and get him
out of bed.
30
AS: This is one of the boys. He is now aspiring to become president of Knoxville College in
Knoxville, Tennessee. I used to have to go and get some of these children out of the bed
and say, “You’re worth saving.”
KH: Was he one you had to get out of bed?
AS: He is one of them. He has his Ph.D. He has worked with the TV--what is that place?
SCS: Tennessee Valley.
AS: Tennessee Valley [Authority]. Some of everything. This is one who’s a Ph.D. He said
that he started these in my class, that I taught him about this type of thing.
SCS: So that’s not the one who said that about the old dumb papers?
AS: No, this is not the one who said, “Give Mrs. Angeline Smith this” [unclear--tape
malfunction]. I came down here to meet the fourteen white executives to instruct them--
now remember, none of them I got out of bed. And he sent me some copies of what he
had. [unclear--tape malfunction] “Mrs. Angeline Smith, tell her these are some of the
results of those old dumb papers she used to make us write,” end quote. I said, if those
are dumb papers that caused these children to write books and so forth [unclear--tape
malfunction].
One of the, what is it? What son--our own son, what is his job? He’s an
orthopedic surgeon, wrote this book on disproportionate short stature, and he writes for
the American Medical Association often. He has written several books. I had to flunk
him. These children, our black children now, are not being loved, they are being stymied
before they can [unclear--tape malfunction] .
KH: In the forties, fifties and sixties when you were teaching at Dudley [unclear--tape
malfunction] .
AS: They were here but I cannot find them.
SCS: Now she had one coworker down there who would say to the students, “I’ve got mine,
you got yours to get.” [Laughs]
AS: See, [unclear--tape malfunction] now one of these messages, and [unclear--tape
malfunction] information [unclear--all talking at once].
31
SCS: That was Brooks still. The same one, that Brooks.
AS: Charles Brooks. This is what I’m talking about. These children do not forget us. [unclear-
-tape malfunction] all the way to West Vermont, all the way to Buffalo, New York when
[unclear--tape malfunction] one of my girls carried me to Texas to a wedding of one of
my students, carried me to Atlanta to the wedding when one of my boys married the
mayor’s daughter, carried me that way. We’ve been going around and around these
children. That’s the reason they call him Daddy Smith, call me Momma Smith.
SCS: [unclear--tape malfunction]
KH: I see.
SCS: [Unclear] when she graduated from college?
AS: From college, yes.
KH: That’s nice.
AS: [unclear--tape malfunction] mentally.
KH: When her guidance counselor told her she wasn’t college material?
AS: That’s right. That’s right. See, Smitty had to write that letter to [unclear--tape
malfunction] But you see, [unclear--tape malfunction].
KH: Why don’t we stop here and set up an appointment for next week, or after that?
[End Tape 1, Side B]