Oral history interview with Della Boren Arthur, Lillian Cunningham, Helen Boren Cloninger Kiser, and Helen Gray Sullivan, 1977 [text/print transcript]

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UNCG ALUMNI ASSOCIATION ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM COLLECTION
Interviewees: Della Boren Arthur, Lillian Cunningham, Helen Boren Cloninger Kiser, and
Helen Gray Sullivan
Interviewer: Trudy Atkins
Date: June 14, 1977
[Editor’s Note: In 1991, the Alumni Association transferred the transcript for Side A and a cassette tape of the interview with the four Residence Hall counselors to Special Collections and University Archives. The audio on Side A of the cassette tape had been taped over with an interview conducted with Governor James Hunt’s campaign manager so the audio for Side A of the counselors’ interview is not available. The audio on Side B was transcribed in 2015 and we were not able to identify the voices of the interviewees so “UP” is used when an Unidentified Person is speaking.]
TA: This is June 14, 1977, in Foust Library in the Alumni House. We have with us Lillian
Cunningham [graduated from Converse College], Helen Boren Cloninger Kiser [Class of 1925], Della Boren Arthur [Class of 1931], and Helen [Gray] Sullivan [Class of 1944] all of whom are alumni of the University of North Carolina at Greensboro excluding Lillian Cunningham. They will reminisce about their time on campus as residence counselors and about the way the things were in that era.
LC: According to Miss Harriet Elliott’s handbook [Editor’s note: Elliott was professor of history and political science and later dean of women.], a counselor was really, is really, an educator and there were four main fields of work that she had to do: academic and social guidance, individual social guidance, cooperation with student government, and routine hall management. We were involved with all phases of student life, and Miss Elliott’s philosophy was that a student should be educated as a whole person, not simply in the field of academics or in the field of social living. Because a student needs high standards and needs some experience in social living, Miss Elliott put trained counselors in each residence hall to work closely with student government and with the house president in carrying out these duties and trying to furnish experience for these students. Of course, there were many serious things that happened, and there were many funny and interesting things that happened, and we all felt that we had a good time. I remember hearing Miss [Ione H.] Grogan, the counselor in Coit [Residence] Hall, tell about the time that something happened to the plumbing and water leaked from both the tubs and the commodes, all out in the hall, so that the girls got brooms to sweep the water down the hall, down the steps and out the door at the bottom of first floor, all of them singing “The Song of the Volga Boatman.” We left the front door open with no feeling of danger at all. One time I remember one of the students had called to say she was driving from Atlanta with someone that they had had car trouble and she was going to be late. Of course, I left 2
the front door open and went on to bed as we could do at that period. When the student arrived around 2 a.m., she rang the doorbell and I was so mad with her I said, “Well, Betsy, I left this door unlocked so I wouldn’t have to get up.” But I didn’t say anything more to her until the next day.
DA: When I first came on campus, you had to sign in and sign out, but now as I understand it, they don’t have to sign in or out at any time. I always wondered what would happen in case a parent died or something—would you know where they were. I feel that’s something that just out of courtesy you should do—sign out when you go out because at my age I always tell my children where I’m going because they might need me. There were a number of different ways in which the needs of students were met, or the intention was to meet their needs on a number of different levels regardless of the changes in society.
LC: Of course Miss Elliott’s whole idea was freedom with responsibility, and I think that students felt that they were free to speak to the counselor or to any other person on campus if they had problems or needs and it was one of the main duties of the counselor to try to find out about each student through personal conferences so that she could maybe prevent or help a student in a situation that might have problems later on.
TA: This was the largest residential woman’s college in the United States before it became The University of North Carolina at Greensboro. How many counselors and what was the structure of your organization?
LC: When I first came, there were sixteen. We met weekly with Dean Elliott, and after Miss Elliott’s death, with Katherine Taylor [Class of 1928, professor of Romance Languages, and dean of students] who took over as dean of women. She continued Miss Elliott’s philosophy throughout.
UP: When I came on campus it was after Miss Elliott had gone to Washington but I felt the freedom to call and get instructions from the dean’s office anytime of the twenty-four hours that I needed it. I could call her day or night for instructions if I was not sure of what should be done in a certain case, and I believe I couldn’t have lived without that.
TA: [unclear]
LC: There were approximately 2,300 students when I came in 1943. We had meetings with students and with student government leaders frequently, maybe once a month, when we could discuss things and quite often matters were brought up in regard to rule changes. When I was first here the halls closed at 10:30 during the week and 11:30 on Saturday nights and 11:00 on Sunday nights. The freshmen had closed study from 7:30 to 10:30. They were to remain in their rooms. They could to the library, and they were free to go to concerts and lectures and things like that, but not to roam around the halls or visit each other’s rooms. It was felt they needed that time for study and preparation for their work for the next day. The freshmen could not go home for the first six weeks and looking back on it now, some of the things that students were required to do, you might think was 3
not necessary; but at that time, the rules were in keeping with the rules of most other colleges for women in this area.
UP: It was an orientation period. You had to get adjusted to being on campus and living under different rules and regulations, don't you think?
UP: In the residence halls, in the program that was set up by Miss Elliott, the counselor had a part in all phases of a student’s life, because she was the one who saw her most and she was the one who could give the most help to teachers if they needed it. Counselors were asked to serve on the student legislature, and were advisors to hall boards which were a part of the judicial system. Counselors were advisors to the chairman of the handbook committee and gave advice because sometimes students wouldn’t know any of the background of some of the things they were dealing with, so it was helpful to have a counselor and if she didn’t know she could find out from somebody who did.
TA: When did they cease being advisors in this?
DA: It was gradual. It may have been in 1967, because I was on it one time and you were on it. I’m sure it must have been ’67.
UP: The students sought help. They listened but they might not have followed the advice or suggestions, and you didn’t especially want them to. You just wanted to give them your viewpoint and they were the ones usually who suggested the change in rules as far as the closing hours and doing it over with some counseling group, and then presented it to the student legislature.
TA: It seems now that a few speak for the many without really having the consent of the many. It seems a lot of students go along because they feel intimidated if they don't go along. Didn’t this exist during your period?
DA: Part of it was having a group who don’t care. They figure their vote wouldn't count anything so they didn’t speak up.
HS: There was a period after I left (you could pinpoint the changes more than I) when the courts made a ruling in a [University of North Carolina at ] Chapel Hill case that changed the whole status of our regulations. It was the “due process ruling.” For so many years we had been acting “in loco parentis,” if you’ll remember it had been accepted, acceptable, and expected, that our purposes were always for the benefit of the student— and we protected and attempted to shelter at the same time we were allowing them to have maturing experiences, but so many things seem to have happened in a short period of time. That was one thing: court decisions; then the sort of sudden growth in the number of students; and then the change to co-education. Even preceding that, we had the integration which was accomplished with success.
HS: It seems to me that I had heard that Miss Taylor and Miss Elliott together had developed a student government and campus living situation and philosophy that were very 4
advanced and were adopted by some other schools, certain parts of it by Wellesley [College, Wellesley, Massachusetts] and by the five Ivy League colleges—Mt. Holyoke [College, South Hadley, Massachusetts], Smith [College, North Hampton, Massachusetts] and so on—and also by Duke [University, Durham, North Carolina].
LC: The counselors at Duke were sort of patterned after the counselors here—I got this from the dean’s meeting we attended.
HS: The prevailing attitudes on this campus at the time I was a student and also at the time I was counselor, were very positive. If you talk with alumni, you know that Woman’s College influenced them, and they value the things that they learned here. I’m talking about campus living opportunities.
UP: I have thought about the same thing. I remember hearing Miss Elliott way at a staff meeting after she had been talking to Dean [Alice Mary] Baldwin at Duke. For a number of years, we had our meals in the evenings at 6:15 and then on Sunday noon and also on Tuesday at noon or I guess it was one o’clock because the students for years had required assembly at noon on Tuesdays. Then they had to come directly to the dining rooms for their lunch. There were four counselors in each dining hall and they took turns sitting at the head table where the counselor usually asked the blessing. There was a gong at the head table and when the gong sounded, everybody got quiet and the counselor stood and asked the blessing. During 1949 and ’50, we began to learn some blessings that could be sung so all the girls joined in and sang a blessing for a period of years. Then the time came when they didn’t have family style meals. It was all cafeteria [style].
HS: The change to cafeteria service was made because the student body had grown so that we didn’t have enough places for everybody so sit at the tables at the same time. So we had floaters. A certain week or certain night if you went to the dining hall, you didn’t have your own place to sit and you had to move around until you found a place to sit. This was not too satisfactory for a lot of students. They just wouldn’t go, and so they had to change over to cafeteria style. That was 1955 or ’56.
LC: The counselor had other duties that come under the head of those areas of responsibility.
One of those was chaperoning. On the campus at the end of College Avenue where Reynolds and Grogan [Residence Halls] are was a large brown hut that was open every Saturday night for girls and their dates because a lot of times their dates didn’t have cars. It was during the [Second World] War [global military conflict from 1939 to 1945] and there wasn’t enough gasoline anyway. They had two big fireplaces, one at each end. The music was furnished by a juke box or nickelodeon, and they had a Coke [Cola] machine and Nabs [cracker snack made by Nabisco] and things like that. There were soldiers in Greensboro at that time—they were at the ORD [between 1943 and 1946, the Overseas Replacement Depot was the largest military base within the city limits of any American city] out on the edge of town. So a great number of soldiers would come to campus. Some of the girls would date them, and they would take them to the hut and they could dance or talk, but a counselor was always on duty so you sat by the fire and some of your other friends on the staff would come by and sit with you, share a Coke or a Nab or 5
something like that. And one year I remember particularly, and Helen will remember Daphne Lewis [Class of 1944], who was the college social chairman. She was a very bright, attractive girl, and she would plan a program that she would present during the time that we were there. The soldiers used to come out on Sunday and stroll around, and the girls had to wear a church dress, or Sunday dress with hose and heels for Sunday dinner. A little bit before they streamed from all parts of the campus to the dining halls, and one of the soldiers said he had never seen so many girls, so hungry at one time in all his life.
UP: Another point about those years. At first, there were only two bathrooms for men on campus. Trying to show one from Jamison [Residence Hall] how to get to a bathroom in South Spencer [Residence Hall] was a challenge. I almost had to take one by the hand one time and show him. However, we did get to the point where we would arrange one of the first floor bathrooms that they could use. One night a soldier came in so perturbed, he didn't know what to do. They had gone out and he had gotten a chocolate milkshake and had spilled it all over his coat, uniform coat, jacket, which was a borrowed one, and he was very distressed. I said, “Well, don’t worry about it. Just take your coat off and give it to me.” I took it in my bathroom and washed the chocolate milkshake out of it, so the poor man went home feeling a little better. We also had chaperoning duties out of town. I don't know if any of you ever went to Chapel Hill on bus. Twelve or thirteen buses would go to the State-Carolina [North Carolina State College and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill] game.
UP: We also went down there lots of times to chaperone dances that they’d have in one of the residence halls. One night I was with a group; when time came to leave, we got on the bus and we had hardly left campus when one of the girls whispered to me that there was a boy up on the luggage rack. I said, “Okay, just don’t say anything about it.” Then I spoke to the bus driver and he said, “Oh, I know he’s up there. I’m going to put him out up the road. So we got out to the highway, and the bus driver said something to him about getting out. The young man said, “Oh, do I have to?” I want to go on to Greensboro.” I told him “We don’t have a thing we can do for you in Greensboro. We wouldn’t know what to do with you at all. It’s time for you to get out.” So he did. He was very cute about it. I don’t know whether he had too much to drink or what, but the bus driver put him out.
UP: One time, one of the counselors, Carlynne [Perrow] Gillette, in Kirkland [Residence Hall] called. She said one of the girls had reported a boy in a girl’s room underneath the girl’s bed. Carlynne went into the room, saw the boy under the bed and grabbed him by the arm and pulled him out. I don’t know whether he was just lost, because sometimes boys would come in the end doors and not realize where they were. We have had that to happen. You just never know what’s going to happen in a residence hall or when you're a counselor.
UP: I had a similar experience. A man came in the end door at Strong [Residence Hall],
which is right on the street. He was not a young man; he was an older man and was amazed that a man would come in there. I asked him, “Why in the world did you do a 6
thing like this?” And he said, “You know, I’ve always wanted to go into a girls’ dormitory. And so I just walked in.”
DA: They used my hall first to try out visitation, just on Sunday afternoons. It must have been in ’68. They had to sign in to go to a girl’s room. This time a girl came down and said, “Mrs. Arthur, I know there’s a man in the bathroom.” I asked how she knew, and she said, “Did you ever see feet turned the wrong way?” When they selected our dorm to be on trial visitation, the rule was that the house president and her group had to walk up and down the halls and they were just allowed to stay from two to four. The rule was that they could have company to go see their room, or their date, or whatever, but the rule was that they had to leave the door open and both feet on the floor.
HS: I think that we have to realize that the entering student gradually became older. In the years that I was a student, most girls were sixteen and some were fifteen. I was sixteen and out by twenty. Now they come from eighteen to twenty-two and that makes a big difference. At the same time, I feel that the beginning student, the freshman who has always lived at home and gone through the average high school, when they come to this change in their style of living, I think it is just as new to them now as it was to sixteen year olds, and they still need some direction.
TA: Did the upperclassmen have to abide by the freshman rules?
LC: No, the upperclassmen had their own rules. They could keep their lights on and so forth. Another year I had two floors of sophomores and one floor of freshmen. That really was a delightful year. In the first place the freshmen were fine students and the sophomores were too and they got along fine and they entertained each other. When the sophomores got their class jackets, the freshmen gave them a party. When something would happen for the freshmen, the sophomores would give them a party. For a number of years, the sophomores observed, or rather made the freshmen observe “Rat Day” when they made them do all sorts of funny tricks. Then the sophomores gave them a party that night. So really we got along quite well that year. The counselor helped with all the social program on the hall. We had faculty teas and I could go next door to a tea in Winfield and would wear a hat and gloves, and the students did that too. Helen, you remember when I was here; we had visits, two visits from Mrs. [Eleanor] Roosevelt [First Lady of the United States from 1933 to 1945], which was a delightful experience for everybody. We had a tea in Winfield [Residence Hall] for her, especially for student government officers. I think [Mary Wood] “Woody” Hewitt was president during that year [1944/1945]. But the counselor came over to me and she said, “Do you have any fine soap? All I have is Ivory.” I just happened to have a cake of Yardley that someone had given me. She said Mrs. Roosevelt and her secretary, Mrs. [Malvina “Tommy”] Thompson, would be in her suite and she wanted some soap rather than the kind she had. So I furnished the soap for Mrs. Roosevelt and she dictated her column to Mrs. Thompson while she was here. Then she was here to speak in Aycock Auditorium a couple of times.
UP: One of the years that I was in Winfield [Residence Hall], there was the greatest consternation because a boy was outside under a tree just gazing at the dormitory. It was 7
after hours and in the dark so I had to get the night watchmen. They wanted to know just exactly where he was, and so one came from one end and another from the other end and they caught him. The whole dorm was watching, and everyone was so keyed up. It was as though we had a real enemy out there. I felt sorry for him.
UP: I remember an incident Annie Massey Moore told. There were woods where Mendenhall and Ragsdale [Residence Halls] are. One night Annie Massey heard rustling out in the leaves among the trees. It was one of the night watchmen, a rather small man, who had a little dog that patrolled with him. Not that the dog was any particular help, but just for company. They heard the night watchman say, “Lord [have] mercy, he done treed a possum.”
UP: Sometimes the rights of the many I think are violated by some of today’s rules. I think that’s one of the things that must be carefully worked out where people are living in such large numbers in one building. As far as I was concerned, the rules, all the rules, were based upon consideration of the other person, so they could be free, not to disturb others, so they could go on with their studying and not disturb others. I think that this is training for life situation with so many living in apartments and so many not knowing how to be aware of others and how not to encroach on their—
[End Side A—Begin Side B]
UP: That fireplace, that fire just drew. I never have seen anything—It scared me to death. [laughter]. You know.
UP: The world was on fire.
UP: I did. I just thought it was. I sat down—
UP: Which building were you in?
UP: Well now, this house, this one—that was in Mary Foust [Residence Hall]. And it’s a big fireplace, and the chimney must have—It must have been 100% active because I mean that fire would scare me to death. I sat by it the whole time until it burned out.
UP: I say it’s surely better than having smoke and not draw at all.
UP: That’s what I had been used to, you see. Mine at home didn’t do so well.
TA: Well, they couldn’t smoke, could they? A lot of the years on campus—When did they start smoking?
UP: Somewhere after 1950, or it could have been ’49, but in that era. Not long after. They could smoke in their rooms but not in the big parlors, and when gas came in, you see, we 8
had no ashtrays. The fathers would come or either the young men or the old men—mothers, too, I suppose, and we’d just have to say, “We’re sorry; well, you don’t smoke in the big parlor.”
TA: That would be a [unclear, two people talking] [laughter]
UP: And I would like to add something to what Miss Helen Sullivan said about the parties within the hall, and she mentioned the parties for the whole group and section meetings and so forth. And also we would have hall meetings and hall parties, just, I mean, floor parties. And then sometimes we would have one section on first floor would entertain the one section on third floor, and that sort of helped to get to know each other, too. I think that was a point Miss Sullivan was bringing out. I thought I could add that little bit.
UP: And the nice thing about that is that later on in life, when they run into these people, even though they were not close friends, they are so glad to see each other.
UP: They had shared experience: troubles and joys.
UP: That’s exactly it.
UP: Well, I think that parties brought out some of the most ingenious talents of these girls. They would write little skits, and some of them were really humorous, and they—that was one way of showing their originality and their ingenuity. It really was just remarkable: some of the costumes they would just get up on the spur of the minute. Really, I think you sometimes could see a girl develop from a very timid person, and by the end of the year she would feel a sense of worth, self-worth that had developed in this environment. I think we were supposed—Oh, the job of the counselor was to create an atmosphere, you remember, [laughter] which people would—
TA: Well, what did you do in the house meetings, though? Did you take up [pause] not always socials, because you didn’t have that many? But what were the things that you did when you gathered together [unclear]? Did you always have skits, or a program?
UP: No, house meetings were business—
UP: Business meetings.
UP: Primarily campus—
UP: And we got it from Miss Taylor’s office and whoever was—
TA: Oh, would give out the latest information.
UP: Yes, and explain things that were coming up.
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UP: I think this always helped. It was the communication with the whole campus to get information direct to squelch rumors and to tell them why. And then to announce what was coming up, what it could be. We might be having special events and in house meeting we would expound or expand the information that the students hadn’t gotten so they could make their plans. For example, we had the State Music Contest on campus in the Spring when the high school students would come and spend the night in the dorms. We had to find a certain number of beds to put these—to take care of all these students, and so several weeks in advance we would start in house meetings making all of those arrangements. Really, a lot of that we did a rather remarkable job, I think, in Miss Taylor’s office, organizing things for large groups, almost like the Army and its logistics and working it all out so that everybody was taken care of.
TA: Well, how did you find room for them in the residence halls when you had, you know, just a certain number of beds?
UP: Well, some girls would be gone. No, it wasn’t over a weekend, was it.
UP: No, no. They slept together.
UP: Roommates would sleep together and let two girls have the other bed.
UP: And the girls would furnish their own linen. A lot of the times they would. And of course in some halls there might be a vacant room or a vacant bed that you could use, but they worked it out themselves. If you had thirty girls in Jamison, or thirty in any of the other halls, why you usually had some students, you know, who would sort of help you.
UP: Well, they kind of volunteered.
UP: Yes.
UP: Yes, they did. It was not put upon them.
UP: I don’t think we ever—That’s right.
UP: That’s right. They thought it fun because a lot of them had done it when they were in high school, and so [unclear].
TA: There are a lot of emotional problems that they seem to have now that we read about. Do you know of any—How did you—Were you aware of these and how did you deal with these students with, you know, who needed counseling and things of that sort? We have a counseling center now. I guess they did not in those days.
UP: Yes, they did when I was here.
UP: There was a gradual development there. I think when they were—Of course, as a student, I didn’t know about all of the emotional problems. I knew there were students who had 10
them. For example, we had a student in my freshman building who was, I guess, a kleptomaniac—a pretty, red-headed girl—but she just didn’t come back the next year, and a lot of times, I think, in those years, if they were not able to adjust, they just—The parents were asked to remove them from school. In fact, people were removed from school for a number of reasons that made it by the sophomore or junior year, you had pretty well weeded out the serious misfits. Wouldn’t you think?
UP: Yes, I do.
UP: The number grew, and I think we realized that society was changing. It wasn’t the child’s fault—It wasn’t the girl’s fault, and we began to have the services of one psychologist, and we began to try to handle—help them handle it and remain on campus. I’m talking now about psychological problems. I think it’s interesting to know what were shipping events where the person was caught, they were just automatically goodbye.
TA: What were they? Do you remember?
UP: Was it one time smoking?
UP: I imagine. I don’t think that probably was a shipping event when I was a student, but I think drinking was.
UP: At one time.
UP: Drinking and stealing and cheating, I know.
TA: Was there much stealing? They have a terrible time with ripping things off now among the students.
UP: Well, Miss Taylor always got to the bottom of it. She should have been a lawyer. [laughter].
UP: A detective.
UP: If they stole anything in the shopping neighborhood down here, they would call her office, and she would get behind it, and nine times out of ten she would locate the one that was doing it.
TA: Wonder how she found out? Did you ever find out about her sources?
UP: Well, studied the pattern. And she would nearly always find them.
TA: How about ripping off from one another, taking from the rooms?
UP: Well, she would see to that, too. Anything that came up that we didn’t know what to do about, she take a hold of it and fix it, find out and act. 11
UP: She found—She understood that or explained that if a billfold is found in a certain place and the money has been removed and a similar situation occurs somewhere else on campus, you just keep all this information and then there will be a pattern, and then she will find out—She was able to find out what students [unclear] went in those buildings at those times and sort of nailed it down. It was really remarkable.
UP: It was unbelievable.
UP: She could do it every time. [laughter]
TA: She’d fasten those eyes on you.
UP: Yes.
UP: I knew you’d say that. [laughter]
TA: I give up.
UP: Then she would call us in there and tell us who it was, you know, and we’d always ask her, “How did you find out.”
UP: There were two things that happened. When I was a student, occasionally we would have bed check. This would be after everybody had gone to bed, the house president, and the counselor, and the assistant house president would go through and check to see if everybody was in their bed, and as a student I never knew—It was vague in my mind whether somebody was missing. I don’t know that I ever wondered whether somebody was missing from campus or just why that was done, but sometimes we were all asleep and they would come in and turn on the lights and see that we were in the bed, and then another thing that was sometimes—they did—and evidently was effective for a while and then they ceased in that—and that was the search. Do you remember once in a while—I think I remember taking part in a search in a building where a girl had had some heirloom jewelry at school and it had—It was of great value, and it had disappeared, so all of the students in that building were kept in the living room, and several house presidents and counselors then had to search all the rooms in the building. Do you remember?
UP: I don’t know. I think I took part in that one time, and [unclear] I don't believe I had to do it again.
TA: Did you find the culprit or not? Do you remember?
UP: We didn’t—I don’t believe we found it in that building but it was—It impressed me as being an impossible job because by that—by those years, girls had so many possessions that you couldn’t go through all the sweaters and all—everything in the world they had. But evidently earlier in the campus life, it had been possible just to go right through.
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UP: And then, too, any girl in the dormitory could call for a search—isn’t that right?—If she had something missing.
UP: There was a period that [unclear, both talking].
UP: I remember when I was on campus, this girl had lost a pair of slacks. They were very brilliant colored, all mixed up, you know, and she had loved them, and oh, it was a great big thing. And she knew somebody had stolen them. And she had called a search, and everybody had met after the dormitory closed, and were down there. And they were getting ready to proceed. Everybody stayed in the parlor, and the search committee had to go to every room. Well, there was one little girl that was sitting over on the outside of one of the—And she’d hold up her hand and nobody would see her. Somebody else would—She’d hold up her hand. She was real timid, and whoever was up there was just trying to indoctrinate and get everybody all wrought up. Well, that little hand went up, and finally somebody called on her, and she said, “I saw a pair of slacks that looked like that down on such and such a hall in such and such a place.” Well, I want you to know that whoever—I don’t know whether it was a house president or whether it was the person that was making the call, she made the journey down to this hall. And I can hear those feet now hitting those—coming—going down and coming back and she held the pants up. And so we didn’t have to have the search.
TA: What—You mean someone had taken them and then thrown them away or—
UP: Well, what had happened—What had happened, I think—Didn’t we have laundry things?
UP: We had laundry rooms.
UP: I think that the girl had had them in the laundry—in the thing and hadn’t picked them up, and somebody got tired of them being and they just took them out of the washing machine and threw them down. You see they had been there and been there and been there, and she couldn’t use the washing machine.
TA: So she cast them aside not knowing it was valuable.
UP: Well, there was one thing about those searches: sometimes, and in certain instances that I know about, the student—they worked it out and they had strong suspicions of one particular person—
UP: It wasn’t done as—
UP: And so they would start—Maybe they would start—Some would start on the third floor, and some on the second, and some on the first, just to pretend, you know, they were going, and then they would find them real soon. And so that was that, because I had something to happen—we called it the famous—the case of the famous blue girdle that was on the drying rack in the laundry room, and we, you know, different people worked on it, and the point was that I believe it was this—either this girl’s roommate or 13
somebody across the hall who had taken the blue girdle, so we did find it and I believe that girl was sent home. And one time I knew about a case in another hall, and some money was taken, and they had, as I said, strong suspicions of where that money was, and so they searched several rooms on each floor and found it in the toe of a boot that was in the girl’s closet.
TA: Boy, that was good sleuthing.
UP: And when they had these searches, sometimes things turned up that you were not expecting.
TA: Maybe a bottle?
UP: Well no, not that, but I know one time we had a search, and we found a girl had been taking books from the library, and all these books—All these books were stored there in her trunk.
TA: Not checked out?
UP: Not checked out.
TA: That's where we have so much of a problem right now. Vandalism and thievery in our library.
UP: I think in this girl’s case, I think she wanted those books so bad that she could not refuse. She loved—and everything she took was excellent, classical value. Isn’t that pitiful?
TA: If you love books, usually you aren’t that sort of a person. [chuckle]
UP: No. Going back to the reasons that students left school shows quite a change in society’s thinking. Well, they left, some, because they had flunked out, for one thing, you see. At certain intervals they hadn’t been able to make it, and so they had to leave school. And then I think we said drinking, and then, of course, pregnancy. I can remember, I think, when the first girl was allowed to stay on campus after she was expecting. She was still allowed to stay.
TA: But she was married.
UP: Yes, she was.
TA: So it was—You didn’t probably know about pregnancy in unwed mothers in that period.
UP: Well, if you did know about it, then of course they left the next day, and then—Wouldn’t you say?
UP: Yes, yes. That was usually handled through the infirmary though, of course. You know. 14
UP: And then, discharged.
UP: If the student went with a married man, I remember.
TA: How would you find out about that?
UP: Well, they had to sign out, and sometimes the—Oh, there are ways—All sorts of it with this many students, things would be reported, and I assume that students handled a lot of the—or most of the rule infractions or anything that they considered that students were doing wrong was not handled by counselors.
UP: No.
UP: It was student government in their sense of responsibility of why people were where they were when they were, and the students would get wind of it.
UP: But then the students felt so much more responsibility in that field. I never will forget when there was a girl that people felt like should go—I mean the students in the building—but nobody would have the nerve to get up and make that statement and say, “I think she should go.” Until finally one girl says, “I’m going to—I’m a senior and I won’t be here next year, and I don’t care. That girl should go because her influence is so bad.” It was drinking; it was drinking. And—But she held back because she couldn’t stand the stigma that would come to her for reporting it.
TA: They didn’t [unclear]; they did ship her.
UP: They did.
UP: Yes.
UP: They had a lot of boys’ names on a “black list,” and they would get—Each time we had a staff meeting, they’d give us names to add to it, and, you know, we’d find out that way. Lots of people did.
UP: Sometimes they would find out through Greensboro connections. Different things would happen, and you would get wind of this, that, and the other. Some of us would, or—
UP: Miss Taylor did.
UP: Yes. [laughter]
UP: The whole reason, the basis for all of those actions were to protect the girls.
UP: Absolutely, that was the only thing that we had was to protect that girl from anything that might scar her.
15
UP: That’s right. And at that early age. And it was considered a serious thing if she were going—Well, you know—
UP: Getting herself into a situation she couldn’t get out of, and a lot of—I think I understood so much more after I became a counselor, the reason for a lot of rules, and I remember it made a lot of sense to me. There was a period of time there when freshman, anyway, had to—could sign out, but they had to sign back in within a certain number of hours. They could go right back out again, but they had to touch base. And this would now be considered just so inconvenient.
UP: Well now, that was if they were gone in the afternoon, they’d have to come back and touch base before they went out that night.
UP: And one of the reasons I think that that originally was set out was where girls didn’t know quite how to—A lot of times girls went in groups with blind dates and people that they did not know, and it was to give them a chance to get back to campus—I mean to give them an excuse if they wanted to get back, if they wanted to get out of this blind date situation. The blind date knew they had to come back, so he would bring the girls back and then give them a chance to freshen up. Some girls didn’t—had not had enough experience to—They were even embarrassed to tell a boy they had to go to the restroom so this was for them. And it seems to me that that was the purpose of all the things that we did, was for them.
UP: Well, that first riding permission stated that they could only ride within the city limits of Greensboro. And of course, what was approved was based on the riding permission that they received from the parents.
TA: I remember, though—We’re about the same vintage—and I remember when I graduated from [the University of North Carolina at] Chapel Hill, the great difference in the attitude of men toward a working girl and toward a college girl. The college girl was protected and he felt—You know, they had a different attitude. She was inexperienced and, you know, untouched, and one month or the next month you’d be working, and suddenly you became much more a woman of the world. You had to be a little more defensive. It was really a difference. I can remember that very clearly.
UP: Well, age has a lot to do here, too. I think even at twenty, in those years that was fairly young, but at twenty-two, even in those years, people pretty well [unclear].
TA: But how many girls didn’t go to college, too, and yet those who were out on their own were immediately into the classification of a more experienced woman. It seemed to me; I don’t know.
UP: And where that [unclear], you know, back then.
UP: I think you [unclear, two persons talking]. You know, about that. They could make you believe that’s true. 16
TA: It did seem that it was sort of a protected environment, and now it certainly is not. They didn’t want it.
UP: Well, when I was a student, it seemed to me that there was so much more of an idea that coming to college was a privilege, and that certain—that certain things were expected of educated people. In other words, educated people did things in certain ways because they had had the opportunity to learn better ways of doing than others. Nowadays, of course, with television and other things, you know, that doesn’t wash, does it? And I’m sorry in a way. When you were talking about [unclear] removing a girl because of her bad influence on the others. Now we risk the bad influence on a number for the—hoping that there will be a benefit to the one, don’t you think?
TA: Exactly, right.
UP: And I don’t—I don’t know whether this is right sometimes.
TA: It’s supposed to be the great equalizer. Education is. It’s really sad. There’s no class anymore, really.
UP: I think that’s the saddest thing in the world. That there’s no—Well, there’s just no officers even in the classes anymore, is there?
TA: Well, they’re having a—They do get class officers when they graduate, everlasting so that they can—for purposes of the Alumni Association. You know you need someone that—
UP: You mean the classes have no presidents, no organizations.
UP: They don’t have a freshmen or sophomore—
TA: Junior, senior.
UP: Junior classes.
TA: Senior class does now, senior class does. Academically of course, they still—in that category. But socially they don’t have class meetings and all of that.
UP: And no May Day [traditional celebration observed on May 1st] anymore.
TA: No [Class] Jackets anymore.
UP: How about the [Class] Rings.
TA: No rings.
UP: No rings either. But, you know, that seemed like it was part of it. 17
TA: No Class Day [traditional celebration observed during graduation] anymore.
UP: No.
UP: [unclear]
UP: Well, I couldn’t help but notice—this is beside what we’re talking about—one of the commentators talking about Elizabeth’s Jubilee, Elizabeth the Second’s Jubilee—He went on to say that she was a good queen because she was dumb; she did not have the things—Everything had been trimmed off of her, you know. Well, I think that’s terrible but that’s the way people are looking at things today. They don’t want people that conform, you know. They don’t like—They said she was a good mother; she was conscientious. She did all these things consequently, she’s dumb and not interesting. A commentator said that.
TA: Dull.
UP: Yes. Well now, do we look at things differently today from what we used to?
TA: I think you hit it. It was television though. That has been a great equalizer, too. When you think of the same shows are televised into the little shacks on the way down to the coast—these phenomenal aerials over these shacks—then go into the White House. This is an—And the same thing is available to everyone.
UP: The thing about it that is, I think, is so serious is—and it’s coming out more and more now: The people who are producing the television, and who are making the decisions as to what goes out over radio and television do not—What qualifications do they have for making those decisions and for producing those programs?
UP: Nothing except that they were paid.
UP: It’s all based on money.
UP: It’s all based on money.
UP: And not understanding of the effects on children, and the people making the decisions about what goes out, if they would like to produce a program—a television program showing proper ways, what would be considered proper. Now when I use the word “proper” I mean—I don’t think people realize that it means nice ways of doing things, pleasant ways of doing things.
UP: More efficient—[unclear, two persons talking].
UP: It means the way that everybody can relate to.
18
UP: Yes, calm, sort of happy things. Social usage has grown over the years to eliminate things that were unpleasant, but if you—if a person—Or if a program were being put on the TV, who would they go to to tell them what was the really most acceptable or most desirable way of doing it. They don’t have any people to go to to ask.
UP: In England they do.
UP: Who? The traditionalists.
UP: That’s because they—But you see they let the people that want to advertise tell you what to do. The people—The people that have the money to put out on advertising.
UP: Well, now in England they don’t have any advertising on the BBC [British Broadcasting Corporation], and so they can say “you can do this” and “you can’t do that.” And they still—I mean they have a little bit more of the right things. At least what I call the right things.
UP: You know, I think mobility has something to do with this change—with the change that you were speaking about, and with family life. The fact that so often the family is not together for a meal for several days, maybe. And [Greensboro] Mayor Jim Melvin brought that out in his talk to the people who were here for Girls State [week-long workshop in the legislative process sponsored by the North Carolina American Legion Auxiliary] this week, and he said that no matter what the government did, no matter how many prisons they built, that they could not stem the tide unless there was a change in the family unit. That’s where the training began, and that’s where—and that they could not—that the other—By the time the child got to be a—in his or her teens, that the—that there just wasn’t much you could do, except to punish them when they were caught.
UP Well, it seems to me that in those years, it was one of our objectives to teach girls the best that we knew; the best that anybody could—
UP: Because you wanted that girl to be the best.
UP: That’s right. And so we exposed them to these things whether they picked it up or not, I bet a lot of them remember some of the things—
UP: I’m sure they do.
UP: That they did. I’ll never forget some of the flower arrangements that Miss Funderburk did in the buildings. The first time I was ever aware of just fine arrangements, just a simple thing, and I never have forgotten it. So I think those things were valuable, and I think they are valuable today. I think a lot of people who are very prominent in the world, who are very famous, would be so glad if they knew for sure that what they were doing was in good taste. They do the best they know, but they did not have in their background some experiences that would have given them better taste.
19
UP: Isn’t it funny how you can use a word like that, you almost feel as though you're being [unclear].
UP: You’re dating yourself.
UP: Well no, it’s almost as though you were being [pause]—
TA: Condescending, a little.
UP: Yes.
UP: Well, can you remember when you were an alumna on campus, someone that might have influenced you especially, and you—Can you remember from your experience not as a counselor but as an alumna?
UP: Well, we had get-togethers every night after dinner, and one girl could knock that piano into pieces, and we just had the best time. I always wondered whatever happened to her.
TA: Do you remember who it was?
UP: Libby Daniels [Class of 1930]. I don’t know whether she still—They called her Bebe Daniels and she could—
TA: Well, now that was a movie star, too.
UP: Yes, that was a movie star.
UP: Yes, but not that one. [laughter] But I’d like to know what ever became of her, whether she’s still living or not.
TA: And how about you, [unclear]?
UP: I’m just trying to think.
UP: And then we had a lot of bull sessions, too, you know.
UP: Oh I think that is the one thing that the girls miss now most: the exchange of ideas in groups they have. They’re so busy going and doing their own thing that they don't get together.
TA: Except with beer and boys.
UP: That’s right, and that is not good.
UP: They’re tired when they come in now and fall on the bed and go to sleep if they’ve got any spare moments where we got together every night. 20
TA: And you were restricted.
UP: Yes.
TA: You had to be with those people, and you really learned so much, didn’t you, from those bull sessions.
UP: Oh, and you made friends.
UP: And made friends; that’s the thing that’s so important.
TA: Do you still have friends from your [unclear]—?
UP: Yes, I visit a friend that I had from Morehead [City, North Carolina] that lives at Cape Cod [Massachusetts] now, and I visit her real often, And her sister is down in Florida and I visit her, stay in a room together next door. And I have a friend here in Greensboro that was in college. I roomed with her. I don’t know—I just thought there were good things to remember.
UP: Well, another thing that has changed so is that when I was in school, partly—And this, I think, was extended because of the War [World War II, global military conflict from 1939 to 19445] and gas rationing: everybody stayed on campus, you see, on the weekends. Certainly in your early years. In fact you couldn’t go home but just so many—
UP: So many weekends.
UP: And this gave more leisure time for people to do all of these things we’re talking about. So that's a good thing.
UP: And there was a campus social chairman with her committee, and she planned activities on the weekend, and there was always a movie in Aycock [Auditorium] if you—and you could take your dates, and that was a good thing because some of the boys didn’t have much money, and they had no transportation so they could go down there and the girls could have—
UP: [unclear, two persons talking]
UP: And the boys, I think, just had to pay ten or twelve cents which was the tax. And of course we could get season tickets or we could pay that much when we went, too, so we quite often would go. Sometimes you’d seen the movie, but sometimes you hadn’t. And then they would come back and sit in the parlor. And you might be interested in a young man—at that time he was young—whose name is Tom Wicker [American journalist, political reporter, and columnist], and Tom was in school in Chapel Hill and he came over nearly every weekend, and sometimes Neva [Jewett McLean] would go over there. And they would go to the movie, and then they would come back and sit in the little 21
parlor and talk. Well, Tom did most of the talking, but anyway they would stay there until closing hour.
UP: You had another celebrity in your building.
UP: I certainly did. Charles Kuralt [American journalist, television reporter and anchor]. He married a past president.
TA: Is that—
UP: In her junior year?
TA: Well now, Neva and Charles Kuralt’s wife, were they—They were not contemporaries though.
UP: No, no.
TA: Neva was older.
UP: Yes, Neva was in the Class of ’49, and Sory Guthery, who was my child’s first wife, was in the Class of either—I think of ’55. But Charles used to come, but he was busy down in Chapel Hill so sometimes Sory would go down there, but I’m sorry to say both couples have been divorced and remarried.
TA: Well, has Tom remarried?
UP: He might have. [unclear]
UP: Yes, he has.
TA: Well, I didn’t realize that.
UP: Oh, I’ve got to find—
UP: I wonder if I still have that article. I had an article about Tom with a picture of Tom with his wife.
UP: But I talk to Neva every time I go to Washington, and she’s quite happy. And they seem to call each other in regard to the children and everything.
TA: But Tom and I were contemporaries at Chapel Hill. We had creative writing together—Phillips Russell—and some other things. I dated Tom a couple of times down there. Of course, it was just friendly.
UP: I’ve seen him several times since then. He’s been to Greensboro. He talked over at—I think at Girls State one time, and also I’ve seen Charles. 22
UP: Reynolds’ Scholar one time.
UP: Yes, maybe that’s where I heard him.
TA: Both of them have gotten so fat though.
UP: Oh, I know it. [laughter]
TA: Golly. Charles, of course, was younger, a good bit.
UP: I thought they were saying—Della was talking about the musician in the early—some of the early years when I was first over here. The girls would come for family style meals, and this would be particularly true in Fall and Spring, and they would have a record player in the window of one of the rooms that opened on the terrace or they’d bring it out on the terrace, and they would have a wonderful time dancing until time for closed study. And the jitterbug was quite popular then, you know, and then came rock and roll and I don't know what all else. But they enjoyed it.
TA: Let me ask you something. I’ll stop the thing for a minute.
[recording paused]
UP: —Hamilton the fourth [unclear] big Nashville singers. He is dating [Adelaide] “Tinky” Peyton [Class of 1960]. She was a freshman and he was at Chapel Hill, but he had become quite famous, and he visited—He came to see her one time. The girls in the building knew it. I was in my downstairs where I stayed. All of a sudden I became aware that everything in the building was going toward the front. Just a kind of an excitement and noise; almost as though the building may have caught on fire, but it was not panic. It was as though—If I had been on a ship, the ship would have just keeled over on the front side of the building, and what it was, was George Hamilton arriving for a date with “Tinky” [laughter] And he has—Ever since he has been—[unclear].
TA: Oh, I know the name; I don’t know the sound very well. I have to leave for a minute, but I wish each one of you would just, if you could think about what was the best thing of your experience on campus, if possible. And that’s awful big. Or maybe the worst thing, or no, what benefit could be derived today from what you knew in your role as a residence counselor? Would there be any message today from your experience of the past? If you would just sort of—This doesn’t mean the end of it. Well, I’ll let you see what I bring out of this and maybe have another session. But I believe—Let me leave for a moment. You all just sort of one-by-one go down the row.
UP: Okay. [unclear]
23
UP: I would just start with my association with [sound of footsteps, door closing)] the people, the individuals that I came to know—a situation where you were close enough over a long enough period of time that you could appreciate—You get to know people well enough that you can appreciate them. And the friends that I made as a student and as a counselor as well, are my closest and most valued friends and helpers to this day.
UP: Well, I can agree certainly with those remarks because you made firm and lasting friendships with some the students, and you still see some of them sometimes. You know about their families. Some of them are very thoughtful and help to keep you informed. And also you learn to know the staff members and particularly our bosses, Miss Elliott and Miss Taylor particularly, and Miss [Rosemary] McGee. [unclear] just about two years. And also members of the faculty, and it was a faculty to student staff relationship through the greater part of those—the greater part of those years [unclear] and influence.
UP: Well, I think the nicest part I enjoyed of that was working under Miss Taylor, because she really would help you out if you got in a place you didn’t know what to do. And then I enjoyed the girls. I have been accused of sitting in my parlor too much with my door open, but you’d be surprised how many girls would come in there and see you if they were just dog-tired. They would come in there and plop down on the sofa and just relax for a few minutes. A lot of them just did that. And sometimes these girls would have problems with their family—their mother and father, for instance, and they had to have somebody to talk to, and they felt like, on my age, that maybe I could help them solve some of those problems. But it was real interesting to have the girls that I’ve had.
UP: Well, I can certainly go along with your ideas on that. I will never forget my first year [unclear] I was so—I didn’t know—I was so alone I didn’t know exactly what to do, but I had a house president that was so efficient that, I’m telling you the truth, she could have run that hall herself without me ever being there.
UP: Remarkable.
UP: Remarkable.
UP: That true in most cases.
UP: Yes, in many cases.
UP: I never will forget one time I kept bragging about her so somebody said, “I wish you would quit talking about Peggy.” But the next year I had a new experience, so you see you don’t have it every year. But I will never forget that first year as long as I live. It was so amazing what that girl could do. She could do anything.
UP: I think the—to have the opportunity to observe the development and the growth of students over their four year college experience teaches you so many things. It shows how valuable a place can be in the life of a girl.
UP: That’s right. 24
UP: I do think that in all the years that I was here, there was an awful lot to be gotten here if the student wanted to get it.
UP: If the girl was interested.
UP: Yes. If she wanted it, it was here.
UP: So often they’re not motivated in the right—They’re later, the motivation comes later, after the time has gone.
UP: But then, too, it can come after their first or second year, and there will be a remarkable turnabout.
UP: Yes, that’s right.
UP: And in the girl’s attitude and behavior.
UP: I was thinking about that very same thing because I think that’s what the whole residence hall program was supposed to be; you try to furnish some sort of motivation for students and help them to know what is here for them.
UP: And let them find out what is the thing for them to do. Expose them to everything.
UP: Well, what was the worst thing? She asked us to say something about the worst thing.
UP: I’d hate to tell you the worst thing. [laughter]
UP: Well, I can remember so many of them were so bad except that the problems that you dealt with—For instance those who were homesick. Sometimes that took a while; sometimes they left anyway. And if a student disobeyed one of the student government rules, if it was for a very serious event, and she came in to tell you about it, you felt that it was a disappointment to you. And you felt sorry that she had become involved. But there were always things that you could tell her, that it was not what she had done that was important as much as what she intended to do from that time on. How her life [unclear]. And sometimes you would try to stress many, many things that you thought were good and helpful, and it took such a long time. Or maybe sometimes not at all, to have the student aware of those virtues, so to speak, such as being sensitive to the needs of others and realizing just what life in the residence hall could be and should be. Sometimes you were a little bit disappointed if you didn’t think you had made much of a dent in the personality of the student.
UP: I had several problems with the girls coming in to talk about their parents, and one of them was just real sad. I thought she was going to have a fit and jump in it, because her father and mother had separated, and her father asked her to double-date with him that weekend. That’s—I thought—I just thought she was going into hysterics. Anyway I just told her—I said, “Well—” 25
[End of Interview]