Oral history interview with Esther Bagewell Mathews, 1991 [text/print transcript]

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UNCG CENTENNIAL ORAL HISTORY PROJECT COLLECTION
INTERVIEWEE: Esther Bagwell Mathews
INTERVIEWER: Missy Foy
DATE: February 7. 1991
MF: If you could start by giving me a little bit of general information like where you're from and when you went to Woman's College [of the University of North Carolina] and so forth.
EM: Okay. Well, I'm a native of Durham [North Carolina].
MF: Oh, really?
EM: Yes.
MF: I went to high school in Durham.
EM: Oh. [laughs] And I went to UNCG [The University of North Carolina at Greensboro]—well, it was WC [Woman’s College] then—'45 to '49. And I majored in music education.
MF: Okay. You were in music. Okay. Music education. Did you get like a teaching certificate?
EM: Right. Yes.
MF: And at that time were they still doing the teaching certification through the music department or did you have to do that through the education?
EM: Well, actually, I don't—we did our practice teaching at Curry [School, public laboratory school on campus]. But there was no real certification program, as such, at that time. But, I—
MF: Right. Yes. Okay. I couldn't remember how it—
EM: Yes. We had—I got a bachelor of science in music education, which is not done anymore. They don't have the BS degree, which is more specialized. And we had actually two years of practice teaching. We had one year as an observer in the classroom as a second teacher. And then the senior year, we were the first teacher, and we had a junior with us to act as second teacher. So we got a lot of good experience, but it was right there on campus at Curry.
MF: Right. Okay. I forgot about that at that time that Curry was still there. Yes. A lot of students that went to WC had also gone to Curry.
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EM: Yes. Greensboro people. Yes. Yes.
MF: Like a lot of children of faculty.
EM: Yes. Yes.
MF: How was—? Before I go on, how was—well, I guess your impression of Curry? Did you think that that was a good education for students?
EM: For those students attending?
MF: Yes.
EM: It was in one way. In another, it wasn't, in that they had so many different teachers. They could have five different teachers in one day. And the discipline was very difficult, particularly for a practice teacher.
MF: That's one thing I've heard consistently.
EM: Yes. And they were all pretty bright kids. I think they must have screened them, though. Just not anybody could go there. They were pretty bright kids. That made it even worse because you had to be on your ball to really keep the discipline in the classroom. I found that I was not as infatuated with teaching when I was doing my practice teaching as I thought I would be. Probably because it was Curry, and these kids were ready for us, for anything. [laughs] But when I got out and did my own teaching, it was like, "Oh, gee, this is a new world.” It was so great. I loved it. And I wasn't quite that crazy about it in practice teaching. [laughs] So, maybe that tells you something about Curry. [laughs]
MF: Yes. I've heard that from other people as well, that in some respects it was—
EM: It could turn some of us off completely, and say, "Well, we don't want to do this." So it was convenient and all of that, but I'm not sure that I would recommend it again. Okay?
MF: Yes. Yes. What was student life in general like at Woman's College? Some general characterizations.
EM: Oh, quite a bit different from it is—the way it is today. We were not—it was not—they were not as strict on us as they were—our friends at Greensboro College, for example, even back in my day, we didn't even wear hats and gloves to church, but Greensboro College people had to wear hats and gloves uptown. I mean, even then, they were—it was very strict on them.
I can remember that we couldn't wear our gym clothes without covering up with a raincoat or something. It's so completely different and, of course, a man was never allowed in your room—I mean only in the parlor. [laughs] I mean, if he came down the hall, we had to yell, "Man on the hall." My daddy got a big kick out of that [laughs] when he would come. And we had the little Soda Shop and, of course, this was right after the war [World 3
War II, 1939-45 global conflict], so things were a little tight too. We didn't have a lot of cars on campus and, of course, you couldn't have a car if you were a student. I can remember people from church would pick us up and take us to church and—gee, that was some—really real experience to ride in a car [laughs] because we just—we didn't go anywhere except on the trolley or bus or something. They did have that trolley, too, when we were there.
MF: Yes, I've heard a couple of people say that, but I don't—I need to look it up and find some pictures or something.
EM: Yes, well, it really wasn't a bad idea. They did have—still have a lot of them in Europe, so one of these days we're going to go back to the ways we used to do things, I think, but I'm sure it was conserving a lot of energy to use the trolleys. But it was just like a bus. You could get on it and we'd ride uptown, and I think the big thing we did for entertainment was maybe go to the Lotus, which was a Chinese restaurant on Greene Street for lunch on Sunday because that was about the only place open that we could get to because, see, it was uptown. And we had, down at what we called "The Corner," there used to be a drugstore down there. I think it's a grocery store or something. I don't know what's there now.
MF: It's a little store. They sell flowers and have a lunch counter and then one half of the store, like the other side of the store, is cards and such.
EM: Yes. Well, this was really like a drugstore that had a fountain, but then it had all these other things too. And if we had any extra money, we'd go there and get some ice cream or something. But mostly we relied on the Soda Shop on campus. But at night we couldn't go—I can remember going in my pajamas and rolling them up and putting on my raincoat [laughs] because we weren't supposed to go out at night unless—I mean, you certainly wouldn't go in your pajamas, but [laughs]—because you could carry your dates there to the Soda Shop. And I can remember all of us take turns. We'd roll up those pajamas and put on our trenchcoat and go over there and get some ice cream or something and bring it back for everybody. [laughs] Let's see, what else? I lived in Bailey [Residence Hall] my freshman year, and the other three years I lived in North Spencer [Residence Hall] in the same room with the same roommate.
MF: Was your roommate a music major?
EM: No. She was a primary ed major. We really didn't have a lot in common, but it made it nice for a music major to live with a non-music major because we spent so many hours talking about music and in the practice room that it was refreshing to come back and see somebody who didn't have anything to say about music or didn't know anything about music. [laughs] So—and I helped her when she had to have her—she had to take a course in music for primary ed[ucation].
MF: Oh, yes, I guess she would.
EM: And so I gave her a little help then, when she had to have it. But, let's see. We had dorm 4
meetings once in a while that they would inform us about different things, and we'd have parties and I usually sang or played the piano or did something special musically in the—for these little parties that we would have.
MF: Yes. Since you were a dorm student, I'm sure there seemed to be a lot of difference between the dorm students and the town students, and how did that seem to play itself out on campus?
EM: Well, being a music major, really, I don't think it mattered a whole—a great deal whether they were town students or non-town students because we just lived in the music building, and we didn't—we didn't go home until late at night, so we didn't know where they went. I only knew one—two town students. And, well, I believe both of those, though—no, one of them did live on campus. The other one did not live on campus. But I don't—it didn't make any difference. We were just as close to them as—but I think other town students who did not have the sanction of the music building they may not have felt as close to the campus life.
MF: Yes.
EM: But I really couldn't say not having been a town student.
MF: Yes, because I know—I've heard a lot of people who were town students say that they just kind of came in and went to class and—
EM: Didn't really get in with the group. Yes. Well, I really think it might have been different in the music department.
MF: Yes. Being a music major, did that seem to—well, I'm sure it took up more time than most any other major, but the people in music and art, did they seem sort of separated somehow from some of the other students, as today they seem to be, possibly because of the amount of time they spend in their respective departments? They seem a little bit removed from—
EM: Perhaps to some degree, but I kind of sought out the other side because I really didn't want to be so absorbed in music that I didn't do anything but live and eat and breathe music. And it was, like I say, refreshing to me to come home to a roommate who I didn't have to say anything about a dominant seventh chord or [Ludwig van] Beethoven [German composer and pianist] or anybody else if I didn't want to. So—but mostly, I suppose we were a little clique because we were just thrown together and constantly practicing or doing things together. But I knew a lot of other majors, but in my dorm I didn't have anything to do with any of the music majors. There were some down the hall from me, but we sort of decided that we were going to live a separate life when we went back to the dorm.
MF: Yes. And, let's see, at the dorm there were—you started talking about there were a lot of rules to go by.
EM: Oh, yes. Gee, I don't remember. We had to be in at a certain time. You had to sign in and 5
out to let people know where you were going. If you were going away for the weekend, you had to have permission from your parents: a letter saying you were going to go and where you were going and, well, I don't think you got to go anywhere but home. But I remember one time I was dating a boy who was at Wake Forest [College, Wake Forest, North Carolina] and the football game was in Winston Salem. He was a Greensboro native, and his sister was a music major. And we were fairly good friends. Well, we were going on the bus because he didn't have a car to the game and we knew it was going to be late—later than the dorm hour when we got back in. And I got from—my mother wrote permission for me to go to his house and stay, but that was kind of—I didn't know if I was going to get to do it or not. But it was not easy to get in and out of campus. People would sneak out the windows and—
MF: Oh, I've heard a lot about that. Yes.
EM: [laughs] I never did really see anybody do it, but I heard about them doing it. It was pretty strict. It really was. And we were not allowed to go home at all during the first six weeks of campus life. The freshman year, you had to stay there for six weeks before you got a free weekend to go home.
MF: Yes, now I've heard several people say that, and I wonder what the reasoning was.
EM: Because—well, I think it's a good idea. It was hard that first six weeks, but it's just to get you used to being away from home. If you run home every weekend, you're not going to really get into the campus life and get used to being there.
MF: Yes.
EM: But see, we didn't have cars like we do today. We didn't have the gas because it was after the war. And people my age had been in service and they couldn't afford a car. They hadn't been working, and then we didn't have the gas. So I had to ride the bus and that was a long trip from Greensboro to Durham on the bus because we stopped at every pig path, it seemed like. [laughs] So, unless—and later, in later years, when I was sophomore I guess, my sister got married and moved to Greensboro, so—but I never saw her that much. She got upset with me because I never called her, but I didn't have time. I'd go over sometime on Sunday, but—and I'd take some of my girlfriends over just to get out of the house, but—or out of the dorm. But music majors were like science majors. They had labs and we had our practices, and so we didn't have a whole lot of free time to think about campus life. [laughs]
MF: Yes. Obviously, I've heard science majors say the same thing.
EM: Yes.
MF: That they had labs all day, and—
EM: Right. I had a few friends who were science majors and we did—had similar lives on campus. And I felt like my roommate just had it so easy being a primary ed major. She just 6
went to class and had a chance to study. I hardly had a chance to study because I was doing something—practicing or accompanying or—we got roped into a lot of different things that weren't always required too.
MF: Yes, but were expected.
EM: Yes. Right.
MF: Yes. What was some of the faculty like in the music department at that time?
EM: Well, I think they were really great teachers. We had—George Thompson was the choir director, and he was really terrific. I had a really good piano teacher, Alleine Minor. We couldn't have a minor in those days; a music ed major couldn't because she had to take everything. I had to take all instruments of the orchestra, and piano was required for two years. So I went to summer school one summer and got my psychology requirement off so that I could take an extra year of piano, so—because I wanted to concentrate on that a little bit more than some of the others did. And I had the head of the piano department by doing that; I was lucky to have her for a teacher. Alleine Minor. [Edwin] Phillip Morgan, who just died recently, was on the piano faculty. I was not a student of his, but was—always admired him. George Dickieson was the orchestra director, but also taught several classes, and I liked him a lot. And I had a couple of voice teachers. Jane Wharton [Class of 1945]. Well, she was Jane Wharton, and she married Bob Darnell [associate professor of music].
MF: Okay, because I know there's a Jane Wharton Sockwell [Class of 1931], I think.
EM: No. I know that name too. No, Jane Wharton married Bob Darnell, who was on the piano faculty. But he came—he was there after I was, but Jane was one of my teachers in voice, and we remained good friends throughout all the years. She wasn't that much older than we were. And Bob has become a good friend. My son is a cellist, and he has played some of Bob Darnell's compositions out in California, so—we have a little connection there with the Darnells.
MF: Yes. Okay. When you said Jane Wharton, I was thinking—I knew that because I've interviewed—
EM: Yes. She was a Greensboro native; did not go to UNCG. I think she went to Columbia [University in New York City]. But she taught voice one year; my senior year, taught me voice and was really a good teacher.
MF: Yes, so they had a really—sounds like kind of a large faculty.
EM: Well, pretty much so. Yes. And—
MF: I've heard really good things about both the music department and art department at this time period, that they were really good.
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EM: Well, I think, as opposed to today—maybe I shouldn't say it, but I think the requirements to get in were far greater than they are now. I think the products that I'm hearing over there today from voice majors especially—and I'm sticking my neck out on this, but they aren't the quality that we had back when I was in school. They allow someone to come in who I really don't think should even major in voice. And they end up with a degree.
MF: Yes. Do they have to like try out?
EM: Yes.
MF: Okay. Because I don't know how that works.
EM: Yes. I just think that the standards are lower than they were then. Not so much in piano, but as in voice. Because I've heard a lot of voice majors that I thought they'd already graduated and they would try to get in another school for their master's [degree], and they weren't accepted. And I think it's wrong just to try to get students and accept them when—it's hard enough to make a living in music professionally, anyway, and they shouldn't let anyone come in who's really not top notch. That's just my feeling.
MF: Yes. Shouldn't encourage somebody who's not going to be able to cut it.
EM: Yes. But, like they've got an excellent faculty over there now, and I just feel like they need to screen the quality of students a little bit better.
MF: Yes. Well, it affects the reputation of the school as well, of the department or something. Yes. Simply because I don't know how it works, what is the process to get in? At least while you were there.
EM: Oh, I think they have—when I was there they had an audition date and you came up and auditioned for the faculty.
MF: Is this after you were already at Woman's College?
EM: No. This is before you are really accepted. You are accepted into the school first, and then you have to be accepted into the School of Music.
MF: But—so you audition before you start to attend?
EM: Right. Right.
MF: Okay.
EM: And they decide whether or not they think you're good enough to do it.
MF: Yes. Okay. And I guess there are quite a few people who would audition?
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EM: Yes. And some people—at the end of the freshman year, I can remember in my class were told they weren't up to snuff and they ought not to come back. They were really not allowed to come back. They felt they had not proven themselves during that first year. And I don't think that's done now. It may be—I mean, if they make bad grades throughout. But this wasn't just necessarily only grades. It was the teacher's evaluation of this person as a musician and whether or not they had the talent to do it.
MF: So it was really competitive not just to get in, but the whole time you were in it stayed competitive? Yes?
EM: Right. Right.
MF: Okay. Because I've never quite understood that, not being a music major.
EM: Well, to me it was on the par of a conservatory back when I went. The very fact that we got a bachelor of science in music—that tells you something because we didn't—of course, the argument in the other schools—. Having lived in Durham, I worked at Duke [University] one summer, and they tried to persuade me to go to Duke. Well, they didn't have any music courses compared to what I was taking. They had two or three courses. And their argument was if you get a bachelor of science in music you're lopsided. It's all music, and you don't have a good education because we didn't take history. We took music history. We only took health, English, foreign language. I believe that's—we had to have two years of foreign language, two years of English and a health course. And they probably don't give that now, just a general health course. And phys[ical] ed. Two years of phys ed. And everything else was music in order to get all these courses in. And the courses lined up with the schools like the University of Michigan [Ann Arbor, Michigan], which at that time was one of the top music schools. And I was going to transfer there because my brother had gone there, but then I decided after I got there, I didn't want to leave. But they had the same course offerings at WC that they had at University of Michigan. So it was a top music school at that time. We had less than five thousand students when I was there. And I read in the paper the other day over eleven thousand now.
MF: Yes. I think if you count graduate students, it's close to twelve thousand.
EM: We were the—I think at one time, we were the largest women's college in the United States. And there was a Florida [State College for Women, now Florida State University]—a college in Florida that we sort of see-sawed back and forth and sometimes they would have more enrollment than we did.
MF: Yes. I'm trying to think—I think I know which one you're talking about, but I can't think of the name.
EM: I can't either. I should have known. [both laugh]
MF: Oh, well, let's see. So the classes you took outside were English, foreign language, health and phys ed. In phys ed, do you remember a course called body mechanics? 9
EM: Yes. I took it.
MF: Okay. What was—?
EM: It was just exercises, but they made me take it because I had a curvature and I didn't even know it. They stuck all these little things on your spine, took a picture of you and mine was an S curve. Anybody who had that had to take body mechanics, which is kind of stupid because you can't correct something that maybe you were born with. But anyway, it was just a lot of exercises.
MF: So, did you—I'm trying to figure out and most people can't seem to remember how it worked, but with this body mechanics course, I get the impression that when you were a freshman you went through a screening process and then they decided whether you had to take it or not. And what did they like just line everybody up and just kind of move you through?
EM: Lined everybody up and put these little things on our spine and took our pictures, and I think you had to pass if you—you had to pass that posture picture or else take body mechanics. And when you got through body mechanics, they did another picture to see if you'd corrected anything.
MF: Oh, okay.
EM: Which if it's a structural thing, there's no way you're going to correct it, but, anyway, that was just the course back then.
MF: What kind of things did they do in body mechanics?
EM: Oh, I don't remember. Like sit-ups and pull-ups and hanging from a bar and just general exercises, I think.
MF: Yes. Okay.
EM: I think I had to go to a doctor and get a slip saying that there was no way that this curvature could be corrected in order to graduate.
MF: Would they make you take body mechanics again if it would—?
EM: I don't think so, since I got that letter from the doctor.
MF: Oh, okay. But if you had not—I mean, if somebody came through and they still had a posture problem, would they—?
EM: They may have. I don't know.
MF: It's just—it just seems like such an odd course. 10
EM: Yes. Well, at Duke—my friends who went to Duke had to pass swimming.
MF: Yes. Most—
EM: You know, so they have some requirements like that everywhere.
MF: Most colleges now you have to pass a swimming test before they'll let you graduate.
EM: So we didn't have to do that. I did take swimming because I like to swim, but—
MF: UNCG is one of the only schools I've ever heard of that doesn't make you pass a swimming test before you graduate. Usually people just take it. And at East Carolina [University, Greenville, North Carolina], I remember people paying someone to go take it for them because they didn't want to get up in front of all these guys in their bathing suit in the middle of the winter.
EM: Oh, you're kidding? [laughs]
MF: But whatever. [laughs] Oh, well. Do you remember much about student government?
EM: Not a whole lot. I wasn't really involved in it that much.
MF: Yes. I think most people seem to be familiar with judicial board and—
EM: Yes.
MF: —I guess it seems like they had a wide range of duties, the judicial board, and most people talk about that they enforce the honor code and if somebody got caught—
EM: Yes.
MF: —breaking a rule or something, they came in front of the judicial board. Was that all students?
EM: Yes.
MF: There was no faculty on the judicial board?
EM: I don't think so. I don't think so.
MF: I wonder if they had to answer to faculty because they seem like the punishments they handed out were really pretty strict.
EM: Yes, well, they were probably already outlined that somebody had drawn up. I don't—I really don't know that much about it. I never was involved in much politics on campus. We didn't have time. 11
MF: Were you in one of the four societies?
EM: Yes, but just because everybody was put in one. And I don't—it never meant anything. They quit that, I think, shortly—
MF: Yes, I think by that time—during this period of time, the people I ask about that seem to say, "Well, it didn't mean anything, but in the '20s and '30s, it seemed to."
EM: It probably did back then.
MF: And it seemed like it kind of phased out.
EM: Yes.
MF: I guess they still had dances, though. Each society had their dance, and I guess that's about all they were doing at that time?
EM: That's about all, yes, that I know of. I never went to a meeting of any kind.
MF: Were they—they were still electing marshals?
EM: Yes.
MF: Yes, okay. That's the only two things that I can find out that they were doing at this time. Do you remember any other traditions, though, that were still hanging on?
EM: I don't think of anything else.
MF: Okay, I'm trying to think. Did they still have class jackets?
EM: Yes.
MF: Okay. Did you have a class jacket?
EM: Oh, yes. I don't know why I gave it away years ago. Because some of the girls came last reunion and brought their jackets, and I said, "Oh, I wish I hadn't thrown mine away." But I think that was nice. It was nice to have those jackets.
MF: Yes. And I'm trying to think what else. Was there still [the] Daisy Chain?
EM: Yes.
MF: I think they're trying to revive that now. I may be wrong, but I think I've heard talk of that.
EM: Do you think they'd ever go back to the jackets?
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MF: I don't know. I've not heard anything about it.
EM: It'd be a sweatshirt instead, probably. [laughs]
MF: Yes, probably or a jean jacket or something.
EM: Yes. But they looked real neat. Ours was navy and, of course, we could wear white skirts with it. It looked real pretty. We wore them a lot.
MF: Yes. And I guess—what—did they have your year? Or just a—?
EM: Yes. I think it did, and it had the college seal on it.
MF: What about some of the other people about campus like—I guess Harriet Elliott [professor of political science, dean of women, Consumer Commissioner on the Advisory Commission to the Council of National Defense (1940-1941), chairman of the Woman's Division of the War Finance Committee (1942-1946), deputy director of the Office of Price Administration, and United States delegate to the United Nations Conference on Education, Science and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) in London in 1945] was back and forth between campus and DC [District of Columbia] still at that time.
EM: Yes. She was. And, of course, I just knew her as Harriet Elliott, and that was it.
MF: She seemed to have a reputation on campus even though she wasn't there very much of the time. Was she still dean of women at the time?
EM: Yes.
MF: Or—well, I guess, just dean. Yes.
EM: Whatever, dean, yes.
MF: A little redundant. [both laugh] I'm trying to think—who else were some of the important figures on campus?
EM: Well, of course, Dr. [Walter Clinton] Jackson [chancellor] was—and Charlie Phillips was in the placement office, I guess is really what his job was.
MF: Yes. That's where I've heard his name. Yes.
EM: And his daughter was in my class, and his daughter-in-law is a good friend of mine. So—of course, we had the dorm mothers or whatever they called them then. I don't remember what we called them. Each dorm had their own—mine was in North Spencer, Miss [Elvira] Prondecki [director of Elliott Hall].
MF: She was a friend of Katherine Taylor's [Class of 1928, dean of women, dean of students, 13
dean of student services, director of Elliott Hall].
EM: Oh, yes. Yes. Now she was a big name on campus. Katherine Taylor.
MF: What was Miss Prondecki like?
EM: Well, she was rather friendly. She had been in service, I think. She was a WAVE [Women Accepted for Voluntary Military Service, division of United States Navy] or a WAC [Women’s Army Corps] or something, and she was a little bit—had a little bit of that military air about looking after us, but then she was a friend too. And I liked her. She was—I think all the girls liked her.
MF: Was—I'm trying to remember when Ed[ward Kidder] Graham [Jr.] came on campus. That was in the '50s, I suppose. [Editor’s note: Graham was chancellor from 1950 to 1956.
EM: I don't know.
MF: Yes. I think—I think it was around mid-'50s. Yes. Okay. What about Katherine Taylor? What did you know of her?
EM: There again, she was in service too. I don't know. She and Miss Prondecki, I think, were real good friends, and I think that's why Prondecki was there. The military background always came out to me. [laughs] She was a little—I don't know how to put it—masculine, really, in a lot of ways. She was real tall and lanky, and I don't know. She was not a very feminine lady, I'll put it that way. But she was smart and she was—did a good job.
MF: And you'd mentioned Dr. Jackson. What was—how was he thought of on campus?
EM: Oh, he's just like a Santa Claus. [laughs] Just a very friendly, happy fellow. Everybody liked him.
MF: He was well-liked among faculty and students?
EM: Yes. I think so. Yes.
MF: He would have been an interesting person to meet.
EM: Oh, yes.
MF: He—did he spend much time around the campus?
EM: Not—well, he—of course, he was in his office, I guess, if you needed to see him you could
go there, but I think—I don't think he was inaccessible. I think anyone could go and see him if they needed to. I know I went one time, but I think it was before I graduated, and I think everybody just sort of went to his office to talk about what your future plans were. I guess that was what I went about. I really don't remember that much about it, but he was just a real 14
friendly person.
MF: And another thing I wanted to ask you about also was: with the war going on—I know during the war men were allowed to come as day students because the gas problems that they couldn't go to [University of North Carolina at] Chapel Hill, some of them. Were there still any men in classes?
EM: I don't remember seeing a man in a class. But there probably weren't many music majors either, so, you know. But I didn't know that. I wasn’t allowed to come.
MF: Yes. During the Depression [worldwide economic downturn preceding World War II] and then the beginning of the war, they were letting them come as town students.
EM: Well, see, I was in '45, so the war was over.
MF: Right. I was just wondering if maybe there were still a few.
EM: Yes. No. They just came on weekends. [laughs] I saw somebody the other day, and they asked me where I went to school and he said, "I went there on weekends."
MF: Oh, yes. That seems like that was a big—
EM: [North Carolina] State [College, Raleigh, North Carolina] and [University of North] Carolina [at Chapel Hill] fellows came up for the weekends.
MF: What did they—I guess they came up and stayed with friends or something?
EM: Well, there was a—I think there still is a motel up there near the Y [Young Men’s Christian Association].
MF: Yes.
EM: And they would stay there. I can't remember the name of that one now.
MF: I can't either, but I know where it is.
EM: But it was just perfect for Greensboro College or UNCG.
MF: Oh, that's right.
EM: And so for a dance or something, they would get a room there.
MF: And there was usually like a Saturday night dance?
EM: Yes, and they would stay over until Sunday. Go back after lunch on Sunday. Toward the end of my stay, they were able to get cars and the gas was more plentiful, and so it was a 15
little easier to do these things.
MF: What about going out on a date on the weekend? Did you have to sign in and out?
EM: Yes. You had to say who you were going out with and where you were going and when you'd be back.
MF: And what would happen if you—?
EM: Well, if you didn't get back by the time the dorm closed, you were in big trouble. You had to knock on the door and get the dorm mother to come, and then you had to have a good excuse or—I don't really know what they did to them, but I wouldn't have ever done it.
MF: Never crossed that line?
EM: No. I wouldn't have done it. I was scared to death I wasn't going to get in on time. [laughs]
MF: What other ways had the war affected like on campus? I know it had an effect for years after it was over. If nothing else, just the economic affects that it had.
EM: Well, of course, we had lived through it, and so we were used to not having a lot of things. We'd gotten used to it. So, I don't know that the years on campus—we saw things improving, and we got more back to what it was before or better than before the war.
MF: I guess, when you were a freshman, did you still have to pull cafeteria duty?
EM: Yes.
MF: Yes. Did that last throughout the time?
EM: Yes. You had to sign up. You weren't required to do it. The dorms had a sheet, and you were sort of expected to do your part if you could. If you couldn't, that was okay. And it was hard for music majors to work it in. We always had to do breakfast because that was early, and we could do that and get by with it. But then they paid us, which was kind of nice because we made some extra money.
MF: Yes. What—how much were students getting paid for the job? I guess it was about the same. Somebody told me, and I can't remember.
EM: I have no idea.
MF: I can't remember now. I think they told me something like twenty-two cents.
EM: That sounds probably about right, but it seemed like a lot of money to us then. But I can remember getting that extra money because I didn't have a lot of spending money. None of us did. We didn't have to spend it for anything. Our parents paid the tuition. The only thing 16
we had to spend was for books. All of our food was supposed to be eaten on campus, so if we ever went off campus, then we had to get the money from somewhere. But I didn't have a lot of extra spending money at all. So when I got—when I worked in the cafeteria those few times, that was great. We could do something special with the twenty two cents. [laughs]
MF: Buy a doughnut, right?
EM: Yes. Something really special. And there was a good bakery down there at The Corner. They had the best baked goods and, of course, music majors were always hungry. [laughs]
MF: Yes.
EM: Run over and get something. But that was a good bakery. I hated—it didn't close for years after I came back and moved back to Greensboro. It was [unclear] operation.
MF: There are quite a few women from Durham who went to Woman's College. Well, I'll come back to that. I wanted to ask you for some names of people that you could recommend that might be interested in being interviewed. But I'll come back to that. You can think about that for—I forewarned you.
EM: Okay.
MF: Some of the—there are a couple, I guess, questions that are more recent in nature. One has to do with Woman's College before it became a coeducational institution had this tremendous reputation nationally, and now UNCG, as a coeducational institutional, there are a lot of people who have never heard of it. And I was just wondering what your thoughts on that were. Did it have something to do with going coeducational, or did it just enter a different ballpark?
EM: Probably. Well, I think it kind of goes back to what I said about the music majors. I think the standards have been lowered. And that you're not going to get the excellence of the students or even draw or attract really good teachers if you don't have top-notch students. But I don't really know because I haven't been involved in the campus, but I just have a feeling that that's what it is. But when it was a woman's college, it was different because there were very few women's colleges like Greensboro College. We've got a stopped up sink. He's trying to fix it. [plumbing noises in the background]
MF: Oh, okay. I thought that's what it sounded like. Yes.
EM: I was trying to run my dishwasher, and all the stuff comes back up in there.
MF: That happened to us—yes. It happens when you have a garbage disposal sometimes.
EM: Yes. See what happens. I think he's going to have to call a plumber. I hope he doesn't mess it up. [both laugh] But anyway, I strongly feel that education standards have steadily gone 17
down. I have seen it with my children. Thank goodness they got through when they did because they had some excellent teachers and opportunities in the public schools here. They were able to take accelerated classes all the way through and our son took—our daughter went to the [North Carolina] School of the Arts [Winston Salem, North Carolina] for music for her last year of high school, but the son took AP [advanced placement] courses. He went to University of Southern California [Los Angeles] and entered as a sophomore because of the courses that he'd had here and was able to pass out of English or French or whatever you call it. And—but see, I've taught all these years. I've taught piano students, and I see the standards. These kids can't even read.
MF: Yes. I've taught.
EM: You know. There's a difference in the child today and the child that I started teaching thirty years ago unless they've gone to a private school. They just don't have the background that I think they ought to have. And I think integration has brought this about because we've lowered our standards, and we've brought theirs up maybe. But I don't know that we've brought theirs up that much more, but I think we've brought ours down, and it's sort of a mediocre standard now as opposed to what it was back then.
MF: Do you think that—let's see, UNCG became desegregated, if you will, on—I guess in '63. And it became UNCG in late '50s. [Editor’s note: Woman’s College became The University of North Carolina at Greensboro in 1963, and black students first attended in 1956]
EM: Probably, but I don't remember.
MF: Yes. I'm pretty sure it was late '50s, maybe '60. I can't remember the years. I should know this by now, right? But do you think that had anything to do with—I mean, now the graduate school had already been racially mixed, but the undergraduate—
EM: I don't know that it did. It may have, but I really don't—
MF: Because A&T [North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University] just a mile away, and Bennett College [Greensboro, North Carolina].
EM: I really wouldn't have any way of knowing whether that had brought the standard down. I just think, in general, the standards are not what they were.
MF: It seems like with [William] Moran as the chancellor right now, some people feel that he's kind of making a mess of some things, and other people feel like he's making a concerted effort to raise the reputation of the university through things like building projects and moving to [National Collegiate Athletic Administration] Division I athletics and so forth. What do you think of what's going on now? And also the rift, I guess, between Moran and the Alumni Association, for lack of a better word.
EM: Well, one of my best friend's daughter married Bernie Keele [vice chancellor for advancement], so maybe I have the—I’ve gotten a warped view from their side of it. Hoyt 18
Price was registrar at UNCG, and Hoyt and Robbie are just our very best friends. They've moved to Florida now. But I've heard from their angle—not from Hoyt, however. I will say Hoyt stayed out of it, but Robbie has talked about Moran in not such happy terms, but I'm sure she's gotten her information from Bernie. And I don't really know what I think about Bernie. I think he probably did a lot of damage in his day too, while he was over there. I thought that the Alumni Association run like it was was fine, and I didn't see any need to make any changes. But then I'm not one that's going to speak out one way or the other. It doesn't really matter that much. But I thought Barbara Parrish [Class of 1948, Alumni Association secretary, director of alumni affairs] did such a good job, and I hated to see her kind of run off, which is what really happened. And I think Bernie made life miserable for her. And I think really he got out when it got hot. I really don't—I think he ran when he realized he'd made a mess of things. But as I say, the daughter is—
EM: But getting back to Moran, I don't know that I have any real strong feelings one way or the other. I support the university and—financially, as much as I can. And I really don't get that involved in—I'm interested in the Music[al] Art[s] Guild and what they do, but I don't really get that involved in the politics of the university.
MF: Apparently, there was a problem also between Moran and those people trying to open the Weatherspoon [Art] Gallery.
EM: I don't know.
MF: Yes. There aren't too many people who seem to know a lot about that, but apparently there was some argument there.
EM: Well, I really don't—I really can't fault him because I don't know that much about it and oftentimes—you're a history major—people who have made a stand and have made people upset have been the ones that helped to push things in—advance things, so a lot of times criticism is given, when later on you look back and you think, "Well, he was doing a good job." So. But I really don't know that much about it. So.
MF: What about the Division I athletics though? That's a real firecracker with some people. Some people really like the idea, and others I've talked to think it's the worst idea they've ever heard.
EM: I don't really care. [laughs] I'm not into athletics anyway. I do see—when the soccer team does real well, I say, "Well, they're going to make a name." But we never had any kind of competitions athletically when I was there. So.
MF: Yes. Well, I think that those who—both sides of the issue, those who like it and those who disagree with the move are most concerned about the basketball issue moving into the ACC [Atlantic Coast Conference], and they say, "Look at the problems State's having now." But then others will say, "But look at all the money it brings into the school." So I don't know. I don't know how I feel myself about it.
19
EM: Well, I'm just not a gung-ho athletic person anyway, so it probably wouldn't bother me one way or the other.
MF: Yes. It's just another event.
EM: Yes.
MF: What about some names of some people that—either in Greensboro or Durham—that you could recommend?
EM: Okay. Well, Betty Phillips. Betty Winecoff Phillips [Class of 1949]. Mrs. Wade Phillips. Her father-in-law was Charlie Phillips, so I think she would be an interesting one to interview. She lives in Greensboro. Another girl from Durham but lives in Greensboro is Pat Copley [Class of 1949]. She was Pat Haines.
MF: Is that C-O-P?
EM: Yes. And her husband's name is Kermit. K-E-R—Kermit. C-O-P-L-E-Y. Lib Boone [Class of 1949] was a history—maybe she was a history major. She wasn't a music major, but she lives here now. It's Lib Sydnor Boone. And her husband's Ed. Another non-music major was Joy Morrison [Class of 1949], and she was a Culbreth.
MF: And that's in Greensboro?
EM: Yes. Yes. All of these are in Greensboro. Most of the people that were from Durham who came here don't live in Durham anymore. I mean, came to school here.
MF: Yes. They seemed to stay in Greensboro.
EM: Yes. A lot of people have stayed in Greensboro and the others—well, this one is in Winston. She was the class president. Martha Fowler [McNair, Class of 1949]. Now who did she marry? I don't know why I can't think of her married name.
MF: I can look it up.
EM: Okay. She was the president of the class, so you would certainly want to interview her. And she's been active in alumni affairs, too, throughout the years. Is that enough?
MF: Oh, sure. Yes. That's plenty. I just—I'm just trying to keep my list going by asking for names.
EM: Okay. If you run out, call me and I can give you lots more.
MF: Okay.
EM: There are a lot of Greensboro girls, though, who just stayed here. I left and taught in 20
Graham and then I taught in Elizabeth City [both North Carolina], and I met my husband in Elizabeth City and he happened to be working here, but he was on a tax case in Elizabeth City.
MF: A tax case? He works for the IRS [Internal Revenue Service]?
EM: No. He's a CPA [certified public accountant]. He works for the taxpayer against the IRS. Or he did. [laughs] He was a partner in an accounting firm, and he was sent down to Elizabeth City [North Carolina]. That was back when a lot of people were having these court cases on their taxes, and I was teaching and we met through a mutual friend. And so—we always say—they say, "Well, how did you meet him in Elizabeth City?" It's a long way away.
MF: Okay. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
EM: Well, you're welcome.
MF: I really appreciate it. I also want to give you the opportunity in case there's anything I've missed that you think is important that needs to be included.
EM: Oh, I don't know of anything.
MF: You'll think of something later. "Oh, why didn't I tell her this?" Okay, well, thank you so much.
EM: Okay. Well, you're so welcome.
[End of Interview]