Oral history interview with Rachel Long, 1990 [text/print transcript]

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UNCG CENTENNIAL ORAL HISTORY PROJECT COLLECTION
INTERVIEWEE: Rachael Long
INTERVIEWER: Missy Foy
DATE: April 2, 1990
MF: I guess first if you could just start out telling me something, some general stuff like when you were at Woman's College [of the University of North Carolina] and—
RL: I went to Woman's College in 1939, the fall of 1939, graduated in 1943. Lived in Cotten Dorm my freshman year, and the other three years I lived in North Spencer [Dorm] in the same room, the same roommate. You know North Spencer?
MF: Yes. I was in North Spencer.
RL: I was able to meet all the people from many different places. At that time we had—I'm not sure whether we had more students—I mean a higher percentage of out-of-state students—than we do now. I've intended on getting that checked sometime just for my own interest. But I knew a fair number of students from other areas across the country, and that was very interesting [unclear]
MF: Yes, were they—?
RL: —and I'm a hearty proponent of the fact that they should be there. I mean that we should have a good representation from out of state.
MF: Were there a lot from up North?
RL: Some. Yes. But more from up North, I guess, and some from a—there was one from New Mexico.
MF: Oh, wow.
RL: As a matter of fact, I happened to ride in the car with her to school that day because we left from here, and we both had connections with the same family here, and so we went to school together. Could not have been more unalike. [both laugh]
MF: Oh, really.
RL: But wasn’t just poles apart as far as type of people. She only stayed, I believe, a year, but it was fascinating to get to know her.
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MF: Yes.
RL: Very dramatic person.
MF: Oh really. I guess if you could talk generally about what student life was like, what it was like to be a student at Woman’s College.
RL: As I'm sure you've heard from other people, if I just had it to do over again and made better use of my time. We spent a lot of time worrying about things that we had to do and we didn't do.
MF: Yes.
RL: But I was—I and all the people that I lived near were conscientious about—well, you had to be conscientious about going to class then because you only had—you had to make the Dean's List, I think, to get even three cuts.
MF: Oh, wow.
RL: I believe that's correct. And I didn't make the Dean's List until my—I think it was my last semester, so I didn't have time, a chance to take advantage of my three cuts per class or what is the number of hours that your class—[unclear] two or three, whatever. But then as far as— I don't think—I mean, I was there with the express purpose of learning something that would help me make a living, but I was not—I had not been previously stimulated about the excitement of learning. And I got out of school before I realized how exciting learning could be. And that's what I really regret—
MF: Oh, yes.
RL: —because what opportunities that I didn’t advantage of. At the time that I went to school, the majority of people were going to be secretaries or teachers or nurses. There were some people in other fields, and I’ve wished many times later that I had known more about opportunities for women, but I wasn't in a position to take a chance on being able to get a job. I had to have a skill that would permit me to get one when I finished school. So I got a BS [bachelor of science] in secretarial administration, and I'm not sure if they still have that program. I'd like to know. I would like to hope they don't because I would like to think that people now spend four years in arts and sciences, and then take typing and whatever else you need to work in an office on the side, but that you have a better—that you have more courses which are just going to be with you forever and that just make life more interesting and that make, that broaden as a person rather than give you a skill to perform a job. And with the—of course the School of Business was not in existence then, and I hope that has taken care of—I don't know [unclear], but I'd be interested in it.
MF: Yes. Even those who are in the School of Business have—still have two years of what's called general college.
RL: Well, that's good, very good. 3
MF: And that includes humanities and sciences and—
RL: Yes. And, of course, we had the hours that were—we had to take general college, to take courses in general college too. But somehow when it's a requirement and when you don't have the motivation, which I really think I lacked, for learning, I just didn't realize how exciting it can be—
MF: Yes.
RL: —which seems impossible to me that I wouldn't have known, but it is possible to be that tunnel vision.
MF: [laughing] Yes. I'm aware of that.
RL: So even though we had the hours, it still—I didn't have the interest that I wish I had to take a little more.
MF: Yes. So it's just like marking—
RL: Yes.
MF: —slates off the block, sort of like, “Oh well I cleared that hurdle.”
RL: Sort of. I hate to say it, but that's really a lot of times the way it was.
MF: Well, I think that's the way it is for a lot of people.
RL: And part of it's the age you are. If you knew everything that you learn in life for the next fifty years, then you wouldn't need to go to school in the first place. But it's a shame you can't—for instance, I know a young fellow who is a freshman here right now who is excited about learning, and to me that is about the best thing I can think of—[unclear]
MF: Oh yes.
RL: I really am so pleased that that's the way he feels.
MF: And with a guarantee of doing well.
RL: Yes. He's gotten in an honors program here and has a seminar with a very good professor, and it's been a wonderful experience for him. And I think he'll just—it'll make a difference in his life [unclear] joy of that feeling.
MF: What was dorm life like?
RL: We used to; I think, study, well—do different things in the afternoon. I had a medical problem which, after my first semester, I had to sleep. I had to have a nap in the 4
afternoon, every afternoon. So that was somewhat limiting. But we still now and then went to a movie, very rarely, but once in a while or went up town shopping or studied or—I had most of my classes in the morning because of this other thing, but I had to take—everybody had to take gym then for two years, and I had to take rest gym, so I had to sit, had to set an alarm clock to wake me up to put on that gym suit and go over to the phys[ical] ed[ucation] building, and take a nap on a black blanket—or no, it was an olive- drab blanket—on a cot that was set up in the basement. And I had to do that twice a week, and I was so angry. Every time I went, I was just as angry as I was the last time. You know, the idea of, of getting—of having to get out of bed to do that silly thing, I know it didn't do any good ever, but anyway that was the rule, and that's what I did, and I do hope that's been changed too.
MF: Yes. I can't say that I've heard of it.
RL: I knew of a heart student, a heart patient who—or a patient who had a heart problem— student who lived in town, and she had to do the same thing.
MF: Oh, when you were there?
RL: She wasn't there the same afternoons I was.
MF: Oh right, but during the same time you were at school there.
RL: And so I hope that is no longer. Then we all ate at—for our last three years, we ate in North Spencer Dining Hall, which was attached, of course, and we had a group that always ate together at the same table. And then we played bridge from seven to seven-thirty [pm], and then the closed-study bell rang, and we studied or worried about it, [laughs] from seven-thirty to ten-thirty [pm]. And then theoretically got ready for bed, and I think I was the one that went to bed around eleven o'clock [pm] because I really required the sleep. But we had chapel on Tuesdays, and we had welsh rarebit a lot for lunch. What—maybe—was it lunch or Sunday night supper? That was something. We had—macaroni and cheese was a big dish and RA cherries, Royal Anne cherries, which I think are really good. But that just happens to be something that I remember about food. I don't remember a whole lot about it. It wasn't very exciting. But—
MF: The meals?
RL: Of course, it's hard for institution food to be exciting except they did have good bread. It smelled so good.
MF: Yes. They made it there?
RL: Yes. I think so. It smelled like they did. But it was very fresh, freshly baked.
MF: Yes.
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RL: And [pause]—I can’t—
MF: I know they had a lot of rules to follow and all as far as—.
RL: Yes. Being in—I was trying to remember. I can't remember the hours exactly. I think it was eleven o'clock [pm] during the week, and it seems to me twelve [midnight] on Saturday, and maybe twelve on Friday and Saturday night. I can’t remember.
MF: You had to sign in?
RL: Sign in and sign out, yes, if you went on campus.
MF: What about dating?
RL: I didn't date as much as a lot of people there, but they—but you had—of course, the rules were strict about that, going off campus, and you had, and I can't—I was trying to remember about if there's anything in particular about cars. This is just vague, not something that I remember.
MF: Yes.
RL: Of course, most people didn't have cars then. When people from, when fellows from Carolina went up there, a whole bunch of them went together or else they bummed rides, and just the population didn't have cars then as much as they do now. So there were dances on campus. There were girl break dances [laughing]. Dancing was much more—of course, we were lucky. We were there at the—when, during the wonderful Big Band Era, the music in my young days was marvelous. That's still to me the best music there is.
MF: Didn't some rather big names come around?
RL: Glenn Miller. Tommy Dorsey.
MF: Yes.
RL: They didn't; the recordings were on more than anything else. They came to places like Chapel Hill. They didn't come to places like Greensboro except that some of the big bands came to the theater. There was a theater up town, the National Theatre. I think it was the National.
MF: Yes. Is that what's now the Carolina Theatre?
RL: No. It was not that one. It was one on Elm Street. And it may not be in existence anymore as a theater. I don't know. And I think it was the National. Anyway, every now and then a big band would come there, and they would play. It would be a lousy movie, and we'd take our knitting and knit through the movie, sit close so you could see to knit during the movie and then hear the band twice, stay, you know, go to hear it and then, hear the 6
movie and then stay a second time to hear the band play.
MF: Oh, okay.
RL: That was fun. [both laugh]
MF: What about some of the faculty and classes? How were the faculty?
RL: Dr. [Louise] Alexander [Greensboro’s first female lawyer] was a wonderful woman who was vitally—she taught political science, and she was vitally interested in her subject, and she was a good teacher and—I can’t remember her first name.
MF: Oh, that's quite okay.
RL: But she was marvelous, exciting. It was fun to go to her class. There were a few that we sort of tolerated. [MF laughs] It's true, you know, it's the gamut of personalities and people. You had real exciting ones and not so exciting ones. Dr. [James] Painter, Mr. Painter we probably called him, was a good teacher. He taught English. Dr. [J. Arthur] Dunn, I had for freshman English. I was really fond of him as a human being. I just thought he was—. Miss [Maude] Adams, who taught me shorthand, was a very stern lady, but she was a good teacher. Mr. [Vance] Littlejohn taught typing. I can remember some of the others, but I’ll stop with those.
MF: What did the quality of the faculty seem to be?
RL: Well, I'm sure probably like it was everywhere. History is what I wish that I—wished later that I had majored in. I think history is a wonderful background to have for living. I just think it does so much for your perspective.
MF: Yes.
RL: And I had not good experiences in history. And I don't think it would have made any—it probably would not have made any difference if I had any good experiences because I was already going to major in—get a degree in secretarial administration and so it—. But I have wondered if it's possible that it could have made—
MF: Yes.
RL: But I think the whole, the way people teach history now may be very different from what it was then. The way I think, teach, history would be most wonderfully learned is by learning the art, literature, history, and music, politics—everything of the era—because each related to the other so much. But when you consider it in separate little segments somehow you don't ever, at that point anyway, well I didn't.
MF: How did it seem like—?
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RL: It was a dull course. Mine was. And I think that it could have been—well, even history by itself might have been more interesting if taught differently at that time, and also if the people—the people I had unfortunately were not dynamic or had loud voices, and it was hard for me to keep my mind on what was going on. [both laugh]
MF: Hard not to look out the window?
RL: That's right. That's right.
MF: What about student government? What do you remember about student government? Was it important?
RL: Yes, it was. It was, very. And I had one friend who was on the judicial board, but that was as close as I—I didn't know anyone else who was in student government, but it was a big—I mean, I would say that it was a strong, I don't know what you'd call it, a force, but—in school life then, I think—I remember when we were freshmen it seems to me there were some girls in another, I think they were in another dormitory, I mean I know they were in another dorm, but it seems to me they went to a—some kind of off-campus—well it was certainly off campus, it was out of town, it was—I don't know if it was a dance or whether it was a big band performance somewhere, but anyway I have a vague recollection of their going, and it seems to me that some of them were expelled from school.
MF: Oh, really?
RL: Yes. I sort of hate to say that because I'm not positive of the outcome because I think I remember a couple of people, and I think they did stay longer, but, see, maybe there was something—maybe they were campers and some broke campus or some decided they didn't want to stay after that. It’s very hazy, and I really shouldn't mention it.
MF: Yes. There was just a—there was an incident where they got in trouble?
RL: Yes—for doing that.
MF: What year were you when it happened?
RL: It was my freshman year, so it would be '39-'40.
MF: That was probably like downtown or—?
RL: Out in town someplace.
MF: Were they pretty clear about that on campus as far as leaving campus to go something like that?
RL: Yes. 8
MF: Pretty clear that was a no-no?
RL: That's right.
MF: And they went anyway?
RL: That's right.
MF: Did very many people do that?
RL: What?
MF: Did very many people, do you remember if very many of the students—?
RL: Well, not very many people that I knew or that I ever heard of. No, I think, it just wasn't—if that was the rule, you just sort of followed it. I mean, life—everybody was up to that point had been, and there was not as much freedom in life in general as there is now as far as young people are concerned. I think that—of course, that varied. But the whole lifestyle of people was just different. It wasn't as hard to obey those rules, I think, as it would be now because you weren't as far from the rule at that point as you would be now if you went from high school to a college and had to be—were restricted by that. There's no comparison. I mean that would never happen now I'm sure.
MF: Do you think that that held true for women more than men or for both, that it was—?
RL: Oh, I think it's always been more for women than men. And, of course, there were no men then.
MF: I'm just talking generally.
RL: Yes. Right. But I think that's the same the world over. It's always been tougher for women to be free than for men.
MF: And so that seemed to be—?
RL: So, but, I don't know that. I just can't remember what restrictions were for men's schools.
MF: Yes. Were there very many men who came on campus?
RL: For weekends.
MF: Were they allowed to come in for dances at that time?
RL: Oh yes. Oh yes. And there was a—there were groups of young fellows there in Greensboro that I suppose over a period of—I know some of them because I'm—I've known them personally, who for years went to girl break dances at Woman’s College. 9
And, oh, I would say some did that for eight or ten years before they decided to settle down.
MF: Made a career out of it?
RL: That's right.
MF: What—?
RL: But then we were there—excuse me. [World] War [II, 1939-45 global conflict] was declared while we were in school—
MF: Right, that's what I was going to ask you about that.
RL: —and so that made a big difference in who was around on campus and who wasn't.
MF: Yes.
RL: I remember that day very well, where we were when we heard it. And in a little—as you go in the front door of North Spencer there was a large living room, parlor we called it, and then just beyond that there was a little hallway, and I don't know whether that's still there.
MF: It is.
RL: Right there is where we were when we heard that war had been declared. There was a piano in that room. We were—somebody was playing the piano, and we were singing, and then somebody came in and told us that war had been declared.
MF: How did people seem to react?
RL: Just stunned. And I think that more than anything that I can remember right now. We certainly didn't all of a sudden realize the far-reaching implications of what it would mean to our lives. But we did over time.
MF: How did that seem to be—how did that play itself out on campus in the next couple of years?
RL: Well, there were just fewer men around.
MF: Did the Woman's College seem sort of isolated from the war, or did it really filter down into the college?
RL: Well, I think there were—most of us had people who were close to us who were in the war, but I feel most Americans were isolated when you think about it. Comparing it with the Europeans where the war took place. I don't think there's any comparison with what we have in our background as far as that kind of situation is concerned. 10
MF: Because it physically didn't take place here?
RL: That's right. It didn't. And although we were very involved because of the people we knew and loved being there, it was basically different from having to live with it and cope with it every day like the people in Europe did.
MF: Do you remember any things that were going on on campus that were a reflection of the war?
RL: Rationing became a reality. I can't remember how soon it did. I stayed in—after I graduated from school, stayed in Greensboro for several years and worked at Burlington Industries. I know that during part of that period, I can't remember how soon it was, but we had stamps for shoes, and we had stamps for all kinds of food, and some foods were practically impossible to get.
MF: Like what?
RL: Like butter. Meat was rationed and probably lots of things. It's strange. I've thought about it a lot of times, and I don't remember that. You just fall in and do whatever is necessary.
MF: You just kind of incorporate it in your life?
RL: That's right. We didn't—I wish I did remember it now. But it's good we didn't have all that butter. [both laugh] Though I really hated to give it up. I really liked butter.
MF: I do too.
RL: But I practically never eat it now. Once in a while I cook with it if something says a stick of—I have one recipe that says a stick of butter and a stick of margarine, and I know that it is very important to use that stick of butter and I use it.
MF: Yes.
RL: But most of the time I use margarine.
MF: Yes. [recording error] I do too. That butter is pretty good on [unclear]
RL: That's right. It's wonderful.
MF: What about some of the traditions they had on campus? I know they had the four societies and—
RL: The societies were Cornelian, Adelphian, Alethian, and the other day I was trying to think of the fourth one, but I can't. Can you? Do you know?
MF: If you hadn’t asked me, I wouldn’t have known. [laughs] 11
RL: It's so close and yet—Dikean.
MF: Dikean. Yes. I was just going to say Dikean, Yes.
RL: Isn't that funny. I have tried my best to think of that word.
MF: Literary magazine Corradi that came from the names of the four societies.
RL: Oh, did it? I didn't know that.
MF: I'm not sure, but that's what I was told.
[recording errors from here onward]
RL: That's interesting. Well, it could. Adelphian, Alethian—well, that isn’t Coraddi.
MF: I don't know. Yes, I was puzzling over that one.
RL: But Dikean [unclear]
MF: On the end.
RL: Right. Yes, right.
MF: Maybe it's just like the first few letters of the [unclear]
RL: I don't—I can't remember much about society activities for some reason. Several of my friends were marshals in, for the university, if they marshaled at—. I hesitate to say it, but I think they marshaled at things like concerts. Maybe not.
MF: Yes. I think they did. And some other things—
RL: And certainly the university functions like graduation. But, and, of course, there were no sororities. Are there sororities now?
MF: Yes. The Greek system started I guess somewhere around '76 or '77. Apparently there was a lot of opposition to a Greek system prior to that.
RL: Yes. Well it—I'm glad we didn't have it. I think it really worked [unclear] But, well, we, there was just, there was just nothing like the flow of money. I, two people, that, two of my friends in college got allowances of two dollars a week, and the rest of us didn't get anything. I mean we got a little something. I don't mean that to sound like it did. I never felt deprived, but there just was not that much money available for a lot of people. And we got a little; we got a check from somebody now and then, which was not very much. It 12
was special to get a—to be able to buy—I'm thinking a doughnut from the grill down at the corner—
MF: Yes.
RL: —or to go over to the—what was that little shop called?—to roll up the pants of your pajamas and put on your raincoat and go over to that little—what was that called?—that little shop. When I lived in Cotten it was right across the street. It was in the dining hall complex, but I just can't think of the name of it right now. Anyway it was open from seven thirty [am] to ten thirty [pm]. At night you could go [unclear]. We had chapel every Tuesday. I guess I said that before, but then we all had family-style lunch the same as we did at night. Otherwise you just went through the cafeteria line.
MF: Do you remember about chapel, what kind of—?
RL: Isn't that awful? I cannot remember anything about chapel programs. What did we go to hear?
MF: Do you recall once a year a group called the Sedalia Singers coming? They were a black, I guess, gospel group.
RL: I know where Sedalia [North Carolina] is. And no, I bet that was after my time. It may have—. No, I don't think so. We had a good series of nationally from the—as they still do I'm sure—of speakers and performers. I saw Jose [unclear] the first time at Woman’s College, I think. Victor Borge [Danish and American comedian, conductor, pianist]. Oh, symphony orchestras and soloists, pianists and vocalists. It was a good series. There were about five or six of those a year. And we always had—that was a—we had a formal, what was called a formal dinner; we had candlelight, and we dressed up to go to dinner on those nights.
MF: I guess the marshals wore their—
RL: I can't remember. I think they might have marshaled them.
MF: I'm pretty sure. That's what I've heard from other people and that they had to wear their dress to dinner beforehand.
RL: Yes.
MF: Their sash.
RL: Yes. It was two, three—I can't believe my memory is so poor.
MF: What about class jackets?
RL: I don't, I'm not sure that. Now we had class rings, but I'm not sure that we had class 13
jackets then. You know that was just something that was superfluous to our—it just wasn't something that—I think that whole era came in after I graduated. I'm not sure.
MF: What about the Daisy Chain?
RL: Yes. There was a Daisy Chain. And of course we had May Court.
MF: Oh yes.
RL: Have you—have any of the people you've interviewed had annuals?
MF: Yes.
RL: Well, do you want to see one from '43 so you can—[unclear]. Have you had other people from the class of '43?
MF: I can't—probably not '43 in particular, but around the different times.
RL: [showing yearbook] I was going to show one—I think there's one picture of me that—let me show you, there was one that—because we were in a V-shape. I think that is a friend who—I have forgotten all about that picture and I'm not positive, but I think it is. He was in the V-12 [college United States Navy officer training unit during World War II] unit at Chapel Hill, and those people weren't supposed to get married at all. That couple got married before they finished school and before he finished that—
MF: I see that in some of the pictures here the fellows with their uniforms on.
RL: Yes. But somewhere we were—she is, she lives in Greensboro, she was in our class. She lives in Greensboro, and this morning a little poem, or yesterday or last night sometime, a poem dropped out of something that I picked up, and it was a poem that I had cut out of some magazine—or paper from Woman’s College saying that she now— at that time she was a teacher, a speaker, and a writer, and I remember being very surprised when I found out that she could write, but she still lives in Greensboro. So is this person? [unclear] I was looking for that picture, that one picture because it shows us in a "V" for victory. [both laugh] That's the way we arranged ourselves when we had our picture made. [Long pause] The people looked like little children then. Maybe that was in another year, but anyway it was—that was the sign of a—everybody used that sign, a "V" for victory, hoping for victory for the end of the war.
MF: And then it came to be, a peace sign.
RL: Yes. I’m not being very stimulating, am I?
MF: Let me just turn this tape over before I ask—
RL: Can you talk to me, tell me anything about the way things are now that are vastly different 14
from that, that it might spark a recollection that could be of help? And also I'd just like to know.
MF: Yes. Well, one thing I was—this will help you a little bit because one thing I was going to ask you about—I think I've been told by somebody that I guess it was—I think it was 1939—that some of the women got together and sort of demanded that they be allowed to be able to smoke on campus. And do you remember anything about that?
RL: Oh.
MF: I believe it was '39 that that happened. I might be wrong.
RL: I was just trying to think. I believe people could smoke on campus, so it may have been then. Oh, isn’t it strange, I feel so—I didn't feel as strongly then as I do about it now. I—it's amazing to me that I could forget anything about whether or not people smoked because I can’t—I don't tolerate it at all now, but I'm—. For the life of me, oh, I'm pretty sure that they did.
MF: Yes. And then, what about the difference between Woman’s College and UNCG [The University of North Carolina at Greensboro]—UNCG being sort of at that mark where it became coeducational?
RL: Do you know when that was? No. Oh, that was in the '70s, I think.
MF: I think it was in '63.
RL: I don't know. I can't really speak for it because, of course, I wasn't there. I know that we write, that many, many people who went to girls’ school, sort of hated to see that happen, but—
MF: Hated to see it go coeducational?
RL: Right. You know there are plusses and minuses on both sides. In many ways, I know that when I was—between my sophomore and junior year, I think it was, I came here to school, and I thought that my classes were much more interesting. And—
MF: Here at Chapel Hill? [Editor’s note: interview takes place in Chapel Hill where Long went to summer school at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill between her sophomore and junior years]
RL: Yes. Because of—and I think that the fact that they seemed more involved in the subject matter. Well, part of that was because they were business, one of them was a business course. And these were people who were majoring in business, and they were going out to use this. But—and we had a professor who really did not want women in his class. And he said so. So that was really rough. I mean we didn't know it before we signed up for the course, but we were two of the first five women he ever taught, and he really was upset about having us in that class. But the—but it all ended up all right. We probably got the 15
same grades we would have gotten, which were Cs. You couldn't transfer more than a C.
MF: Yes.
RL: I think I got a B in one I transferred. I got a C. I took that course, and then I took an English course. So from that experience, in some ways I think that it would—it could add because it did to that class. I got a lot more out of it, and I was—there was a lot more discussion, and, I don't know, you just don't know whether that would be true of all—I don't know whether that sort of—you could say that was the way it was going to be in all classes or not. But I think that one of the reasons that I hated to see it become coeducational was the fact that when men are on campus, a lot of times they get the—they’re the—they get the positions as officers, and they run the newspaper, and they run the yearbook, and things like that. Woman’s College gave women, all those women, the ones who were really interested in it—and there, a lot of outstanding women have been to Woman’s College—that gave them an opportunity to develop leadership skills, which I'm sure have been used in their lives afterwards. And I think that, no matter what—now it's turning back the other way. Even on this campus women are in a lot of positions where, that, which men used to fill. But there was no one else to do it there, so it just opened up so many opportunities for women.
MF: Opportunities that they wouldn't have had?
RL: That they wouldn't have had if they'd been at another kind of school. I mean some of them might have had it, but all of them, all of those positions had to be filled with women.
MF: Yes.
RL: And I just think that was wonderful. And I think that it's probably—it could not have helped but make a difference in what they did if they went into work later or if they went in—if they were just married and did not work—what they did in the volunteer world. I think that was the—that's the biggest reason that you hate to see it switch.
MF: Yes.
RL: Which over time—at this point, where actually we have more entering women freshmen here now than we do men, so that—
MF: Oh, at Chapel Hill?
RL: Yes. So that they have the same opportunity roughly now because the scene has changed that much. But given the situation in the 1940s, the—a lot of those women would not have had the opportunities to do what—the good jobs they did and to display their talents and—or to have an opportunity to do the things that they did there, if they had been year-round.
MF: Yes. 16
RL: Because they certainly would have had to be shared.
MF: Yes. One of the things I also wanted to ask you about is—with the Alumni Association now, there is some kind of disagreement with the association and Chancellor [William E.] Moran.
RL: Yes. I am very concerned about that. I know people, a lot of people, who are—I think it was interesting to me that it was not—we didn't know very much about it for a long time. And I think, as I read in someplace, there's an ex-president of the Alumni Association living here, who had been involved in it more than the rest of us because all the former presidents have. And she let me read a file, and I read every word of it, too, because I was really interested in trying to find out what I could, and I'm really, really distressed about it because, in the first place, I don't think we can afford to have that rift. I don't think the school can, and I think it’s going to pay a precious price. I do think that there has to be accommodation on both sides because something has been the way it was for a long time is sometimes not a reason for continuing it so. But, I mean there may be good reasons for changing things. But I can't believe that there's not a point between here and there where they could come together.
MF: Some common ground?
RL: Some common ground, and some accommodation on—. As I read it, Mr. Moran is absolutely unwilling to move one inch. And he—I was told, in fact, in, I think in that information—well, no, it was in a clipping that I have seen very little written about it, but there was one story in the Greensboro paper that I thought was very good considering the inches they had to work with, the amount of space they had to work with—
MF: Yes.
RL: —and the complexity of the situation, I thought they did an excellent job of compressing it into that space. And I think it was there that I read that he had consented last September to have someone from the Center for Creative Leadership [Greensboro organization that focuses on leadership and organization] come and try to work it out with them as a mediator or something. The last that I heard that hadn't—still had not been done. He still hadn't moved to do it. And what I have decided personally to do as far as my contribution is concerned, my small contribution—but if this were multiplied by a large number of people, it could make a difference. I have decided to withhold it for this year until I hear that he has made that move.
MF: Yes. Are there other—? Do you know of other alumni that are—?
RL: Well, some are just not doing anything until they—until it gets worked out. But I thought I'm going to write a letter and say this because I think—I mean it just doesn't make any sense to me that there's not some way to work it out more amicably than is evident at this point.
17
MF: What do you understand to be—?
RL: I'm sure I don't know all the problems about it, but—and one is the building itself.
[telephone rings]
MF: Right.
RL: The building and then the funds they want to take. And I have been noticing—it's funny the things you see and yet don't consider any more than just seeing—
MF: Yes.
RL: —the change in the forms that we received about how we were to send the money in, not to the Alumni Association any longer as it used to be, but rather to the “development.” I've gotten so I have a real antipathy for the whole [laughing] idea of development because they just—they come in—a bunch of new people come in and do some things, ignoring—and that's not to say that they don't have wonderful ideas, but to ignore everything that has been done previously or the way people feel about things, which is very important in something like the alumni organization, I think.
MF: Yes.
RL: But to ignore that is just foolhardy and makes you want to say to heck with the whole organization, which is very bad because they—people with fresh ideas and fresh views have a lot to give to an organization that's been, that was formed years ago—always. But I think to want to come in and change everything, which—now that didn't happen when the development office was first set up because someone who had been around there for a good while was head of it, so we didn't feel this for a long time. But then, several years ago, when new people came in, and particularly the development person who has since left—I'm glad he's left, but I didn't mean to say it like that—but I hope they get someone who has a little bit more appreciation for just a different view of the whole situation. Though I think, I don't know what it'll be like to fill that job now with—
MF: I don’t know. I know they've got a fellow by the name of Weston Hatfield? I know he works in the development office. I'm not sure quite what he does.
RL: You mean he might be the new one to replace—?
MF: I'm not sure.
RL: I've forgotten. John Fitzgerald is the person that I know from—
MF: —who left? 18
RL: No. John is still there.
MF: Oh. Okay.
RL: No he wasn't head of it. [Vice Chancellor for Development] Bernie Keele—. I never knew him. I met him one day, but I never knew him, but I have had a conversation with John Fitzgerald. He's the one I plan to write my note to. But—and they, maybe they haven't had trouble filling it. But I would be very interested to know what— if it has affected people's contributions.
MF: From the people I've talked to, they all pretty much say they're doing the same thing you are doing. Well, not everybody, but the majority of the people I've talked to myself. And I was wondering, since so many seem to have that idea as far as withholding their contribution until they feel something's worked out, I was wondering where the idea originated?
RL: To withhold?
MF: Yes.
RL: I decided to on my own. I don't know about other people. But I just decided that I didn't see—I mean—and it hurts me to do that. What I give is a—minimal, but it's what I can afford to do, but I just think it's foolish to let something like that go on, and I think it's going to hurt a lot more in the long run. I mean, I'm going to send it as soon as I know that something has been, is being, worked on—that he's—I think I get the impression that the alumni organization has said that they are willing to give up certain things. I think they have to say that. I think he has to say it too. I don't think it's fair for it to be all on one side. But I wish I knew more about what people in other institutions think about what he's doing. That's what I'd really like to know.
MF: Yes.
RL: They let us know that they always list the people that they had talked with, but they didn't ever say what they did. I think probably what they said is, "It's his baby. He's got to—he's in charge. He's got to run it and work it out." But I would hope that somewhere along the line somebody has given him, would have given him, some advice about the fact that you can't afford to have that many people against you.
MF: Yes.
RL: You really can't—a whole alumni organization of an institution. It's just foolish. It's stupid—
MF: Yes.
RL: —to think you can—. 19
MF: It's kind of dangerous to your career.
RL: Of course. I guess it's possible for an alumni—I don't know whether it's possible for an alumni organization. But I did—before that I had heard a lot of people talk about what a cold person he is. I don't know, and I'm sure he's done some fine things—I can’t remember how long he’s been there—because a lot of things have been done, and I'm sure he's had a hand in a lot of them.
MF: A lot of building.
RL: What?
MF: A lot of building.
RL: Yes. But, of course, the building is—like I used to work at facilities planning here and that poor old office got blamed for all the building that was done on campus. And it's so funny because, of course, we have absolutely nothing to do with it. It's everybody on campus who is stating all of these needs that they have, and they’re real. But I just think it's so funny for—but I used to think it was so funny for our office to get such a—I have some people fuss so about it because it sounded like we were going out and build buildings [laughs]—
MF: Yes.
RL: —for nothing, and then somebody came along and built it up, and it's not that way. But anyway a lot has happened there, and I'm sure that—because nobody suits everybody. I mean there just isn't such an animal. But I wish—I just wish it could get worked out. It's really sad.
MF: What about Barbara Parrish [Class of 1948, secretary of the Alumni Association, director of Alumni Affairs]? What's her role?
RL: And Barbara Parrish, of course, to think that—now you know there are any number of kinds of people you can have working incentive like that. But there is something special about going back to school and finding there’s somebody there who knows you as a person. And I don't mean I require that of an Alumni Office. I really don't because, in the first place, I recognize the impossibility of it. At some point Barbara Parrish has to leave, and there’s going to be a new person there who doesn't know all those, but I think if you could always—if there's somebody there that cares that it's not just a job for them, but they really care first about the institution, and then they have a feeling for the people who are coming in. And I don't mean that to say that everything—I don't know that everything that she did was to be applauded, but if there were some little frivolous things she did that he thought were frivolous, they might have meant a whole lot to somebody, you know—?
MF: Yes.
20
RL: —and made a lot of difference in the amount of money that he got, that the school got.
MF: In donations.
RL: Yes. It's just that, I think too that there are people who like different things. And it’s—I think she was somebody who certainly tried to make alumni feel at home. I don't know her real well, but I know her slightly, and I'm deeply saddened that she left in the way that she left. I think it's very sad when that happens, when a person's been there as long as she has. And as I said, that's not to say that she shouldn't leave sometime. I mean, she will leave sometime, but I really don't think that it should be that way. Well, she chose to do it, but I guess she felt she had no alternative. [unclear]
MF: Yes.
RL: And if you have an organization, if you have an office trying to do a job—in fact I have been amazed when I realize how long this has been going on and how—before I knew about it—how many things that they are involved in and how many things they get done. I think it's amazing that they have been able to do it with the pressures that they have worked under when they didn't feel that they were really appreciated or that people—or supported is the word that I mean more than appreciated.
MF: Yes.
RL: That's not the word. Supported in their work the way that—a couple of years ago, I went to a seminar up there for two days, and I just was so impressed with the way that thing—it was on decorative arts, and it was just marvelous. They had lined up such good speakers. They served us meals. They were so cordial. The group was a good one. It was just a very, very impressive two-day session. And I just couldn't say enough good things about it. That was the first thing I had been to of that kind at Woman’s College. And I've been to things like vacation college or weekend seminars here over the last several years since I retired. But that was just so great. And I just don't know how they've done it when they were—they've been hurt, hurt in the heart the way they have.
MF: Yes.
RL: Because apparently he—I've had the feeling that he felt that the whole place was expendable, you know.
MF: Oh yes.
RL: [laughs] And he may not agree with that, but that's the way he comes off, that he'd really like to have people in there that he's had the opportunity to choose or that somebody who feels the same way he does is chosen. And which is really kind of sad to me.
MF: So with what's going on, it seems, it looks sort of like an attempt to try and—if the association won't be like Moran, then it won't be. 21
RL: Yes. It's—it will be—well, I don't know what the latest is, but it's—he won't—he will have complete say-so over how the funds are spent, and I think the alumni organization worked to build up that, and I think that they should have part of the vote. If they want to spend it for scholarships or chairs or professors that they should be able to do that. It just seems to me it's a group that's important and significant enough to make some decisions for itself.
MF: Yes.
RL: But I don't know how it will work out. No one knows.
MF: Yes. No one knows.
RL: I just think it—I would really like to know how things are up there now. If in the last six or eight months the contributions have declined.
MF: Yes, I'm sure. You could call Brenda Cooper [Class of 1965, MEd 1973, assistant director of Alumni Affairs].
RL: No. I mean, I don't want to call, but I would like to. I would like to. In fact, I really would like to go up there sometime, not that that's a good idea for everybody to go tromping in wanting to talk about it. But, and I certainly would stay a very short time, but I would like to—well I think they need some reassurance from the people out too that—especially if we haven't gotten to see them for one reason or another. I just might try and do that. But I certainly hope to [unclear] But I just wish so much that I knew how— if they, if those, if Betty Ervin [Class of 1950, president of the Alumni Association] and the other people had been involved in talking with various people at other institutions, I would just do anything to know what those persons said to them.
MF: Yes. I'm not sure.
RL: I know that. We haven't heard anything about that. What are you doing your—you're doing—you're a graduate student now in—?
MF: In history.
RL: I went to a symposium last week in Raleigh [North Carolina] at the archives in history. There's a women's history project underway there, a project on women in history. It was a lot of fun. It was a very packed day.
MF: I'm sure it was.
RL: But very interesting. And you know there’s not—there are a lot, there's a lot to be written about women in history because there hasn't been much written about it. Anne [Firor] Scott who is on [history] faculty at Duke—[unclear]
22
MF: I know who she is.
RL: —has done as much as anybody I know anyway, and certainly interesting to me.
MF: There's a good book that was written here at UNC Chapel Hill by Jacquelyn [Dowd] Hall [professor of history]. Yes, you're familiar with her?
RL: Yes. She's the other one that I was going to mention—
MF: Right.
RL: —because she was there the other day.
MF: She incorporates women into the story instead of looking at them separately.
RL: Yes. Well that's all right too. That can certainly come. I mean that's [unclear]—but when you're starting with such a subject that to do it on individual women is kind of interesting to hear about.
MF: Yes.
RL: It was so hard to choose that day which things you'd go to hear—
MF: Right.
RL: —because some were on movements. Well, now I could skip that because I'd rather hear about individual women. But then I missed some on the businesswomen ended in the 1800s, I mean, in the eighteenth century, 1700s. And I think that would have been fascinating to hear that.
MF: Yes.
RL: And then another person talked about the first black lawyers. She could have talked about the first lawyers. Well I guess Mrs. [Kathrine Robinson] Everett [Class of 1913, honorary degree 1985, one of first women to graduate from UNC Chapel Hill Law School] was right about that [laughs]. But anyway, that too was interesting. It was some—there were some very impressive black people, black women, there.
MF: Oh yes. There are some over in Winston-Salem [North Carolina]—Maya Angelou [African American author and poet].
RL: Maya Angelou, yes.
MF: So have you ever heard her give a talk? Pretty stunning to listen to—
RL: Well, reading—have you read—? 23
MF: —Why a Caged Bird Sings. [Editor’s note: correct name is I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings]
RL: —Why a Caged Bird Sings. Yes. Can you believe that she would ever know that singing was a possibility.
MF: Yes. She's an impressive woman.
RL: How she ever got out of [unclear].
MF: Yes.
RL: How she knew there was anything to get out for?
MF: It seems that sometimes out of very difficult lives people develop a very optimistic attitude about life.
RL: I know, and I've seen some. I used to work in the hospital here, at personnel, and I saw a lot because hospitals there are always a lot of—well, a lot of people—but that was in the fifties, and we hired a lot of black people, and I got to know more then than I'd ever known before or since, though I've always known some black people, but I really knew a lot then. And I just was constantly amazed at the way they could smile, they could laugh, knowing what they—the hardships that they lived under, and the fact that their lives were so limited because it was work, go home and do the housework, be worn out and do very little before you went to bed and get up to do that same day over and over and over and over again with very little—. I feel that same way about Third World [poor] countries. I do not know how those people keep going—
MF: You just take your lot in life and go with it.
RL: —with so little to lose. It's really amazing.
MF: Let me ask you, just to finish up—I know we kind of wandered there for a little while.
RL: Yes.
MF: That's okay. Were there any other things about Woman’s College that I neglected to talk about that maybe you think need to be mentioned?
RL: I'm sure that I have overlooked the most—
MF: I'm sure you'll think of a million things tonight.
RL: —yes, the most important things, the most obvious and the most important things. In general, it's back to—we talked about teachers a little bit. In general I felt, in spite of my own limited view of things at the time, I felt that I got a good education, I mean, in what I 24
was to do. I've always felt that it was a good school.
MF: You felt well-prepared?
RL: Yes. And I felt that, and I think that—I have heard—I know somebody from Greensboro who took their children to—daughter to look at schools in other parts of the country and what she heard was "Why are you interested in another school when you have Woman's College right here?"
MF: Oh, she heard this from other schools?
RL: Yes. This was some time ago, and it was—but I think Woman’s College, when it was Woman’s College, was recognized as an outstanding school. This was in, I would say, the forties or fifties, and I don't know now because all—there are so many schools that are the same—you know [unclear].
MF: Well, UNCG is one of only five schools in the state with a chapter of Phi Beta Kappa [academic honor society in the United States], so—
RL: What? One of five schools—?
MF: —in the state with a chapter of Phi Beta Kappa, so that's one thing.
RL: I just really feel that it has always been a good school, and I would hope always will be, and I think there's a good chance it, that it could—[unclear]—
MF: —if alumni—
RL: [unclear]
MF: Right. Okay. Well, thank you so very, very much.
RL: Well, you’re very welcome. Would you like to eat a quick sandwich before you go? Or would you rather—?
[End of Interview]