Oral history interview with Jon McKinley Brawner, 2015 [text/print transcript]

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THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT GREENSBORO
INSTITUTIONAL MEMORY PROJECT
INTERVIEWEE: Mr. Jon McKinley Brawner
INTERVIEWER: Lisa Withers
DATE: June 9, 2015
[Begin CD 1]
LW: My name is Lisa Withers and today is Tuesday, June 9, 2015. I am in the home of Mr. Jon McKinley Brawner, Class of 1970, to conduct an oral history interview for the UNCG African American Institutional Memory Project. Thank you, Mr. Brawner, for participating in this project and for sharing your experiences with me today.
JB: Well thank you and I'm happy to assist you Lisa.
LW: [Chuckles] Thank you sir. So I would like to start off the interview by asking about your childhood. If you could tell me when and where you were born and a little bit about your family.
JB: Okay well. I was born in High Point, North Carolina, in 1946. I am the fifth of ten children my parents had. And my family, my father was self-employed as a furnace serviceman and my mother was a housewife. Of my ten siblings, or nine other siblings, all of us finished high school but only five of us went to college and graduated. I graduated from high school, which was William Penn High School, it was a, I guess you would call it a black high school. And I graduated number two out of 189 although I should have number one but I had a teacher who didn't like me so [laughter] she fudged the numbers [laughter].
Anyways, after graduating I didn't get any financial aid. I was accepted at all the universities that I applied to but I couldn't get any financial aid. I had done reasonably well on the SAT's so at least I was accepted. So I had to remain out of school for a year working. I worked for the City of High Point in their engineering department working with the survey party and saved enough money so that I could go to at least one year. I had an older brother who had, who graduated from college the year I graduated from high school. And he had gone to North Carolina Central [University, Durham, North Carolina] so I decided that that's where I would go since well for no real reason than just to go there. I had saved my money for that first year. And once I got there, it was sort of difficult because he was a very much better student than I was. He had a nearly 4.0 point average. He had earned a Fulbright and Woodrow Wilson Scholarship and studied mathematics. Well I wasn't that strong in mathematics and therefore you get there and 2
you have instructors saying, “Well you're a Brawner, we know what to expect of you.” You know so I had to quickly get them straighten out that, “Yes I'm a Brawner but you can expect only what I can do.”
Anyway, my first, that year, I took 42 hours which was a much heavier load. I had a 3.9 average out of 4.0 and couldn't get financial aid for the next year. So I had to drop out again and I took, well during the summer that year I had taken a job over at UNC Chapel Hill [The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Chapel Hill, North Carolina]. I was working with the Upward Bound program. And during that time I met someone, I didn't remember at the time but I met someone. His name was Richard Tucker. He was involved at Upward Bound in Greensboro, which was with, in collaboration with A&T University [North Carolina Agricultural & Technical State University, Greensboro, North Carolina] and UNCG [The University of North Carolina at Greensboro, Greensboro, North Carolina]. Well, while I was working trying to save my money to go back to school, he met with me and convinced me to matriculate to UNCG where I did get financial aid. I got a small scholarship. I got loans and grants and even a job. So he was very instrumental and of course after that, every summer I continued to work with Upward Bound.
Well, that's about all I can say about that part of my education and that it was. I found my time at UNCG very interesting. It wasn't easy at all. While I was at NCC, I majored in chemistry because I thought that I wanted to be a dentist and I thought that chemistry was a good profession for sliding into dentistry. And as I mentioned earlier I wasn't that proficient in mathematics and therefore I began to waver on whether or not I wanted to stay in that field and I had the head of the chemistry department who would not waive some of my math requirements so I decided I was going to go into general studies and maybe even English. I thought I was fairly good at English. But, as I said, I couldn't get financial aid for the next year. So I left and then when I went to UNCG. At that time, they didn't have any dormitories for men. They had purchased houses in the periphery of the campus right across from the cafeteria. And so I stayed there. One of the first other Blacks that I met, other than women, there were quite a few women there that I came to know, but Charles Cole was the very first Black that I met and he was a basketball player and he was a year ahead of me. And we, in fact, staying there was okay. It was okay because people treated you decently. Even if they were prejudiced they didn't let it show. So, but, that was not true necessarily with some of my classmates and some of my instructors. That first year, that first semester in other words, I took a basic load and I found that I was better at math than I thought. So I had a very good instructor. I don't remember her name but she was a very good and very conscientious and she would work with me.
My second year, the university had built Phillips Hall which was the male dormitory. And Phillips-Hawkins, Hawkins was the female side and Phillips was the male side. So I moved in there and Charles Cole was my roommate. And during that time I had two roommates other than Charles. I had a fellow from High Point. He was white and he and I didn't get along very well at all [laughter]. He would call me names and things like this and he strolled around naked all the time. And, but, you know. Didn't bother me. But still, he and I didn't get along that well and after that, I decided I didn't want any more roommates. But, anyways, the things that I remember most about education there was the most prominent memory was my association with the head of the 3
Chemistry Department who was my advisor. It was Dr. Walter Puterbaugh. He was a very good man. And I also had an association with Dr. David Knight who was a very good man. Dr. Knight became my advisor when I was offered a little work study that was, he was working on some studies under the auspices of the National Science Foundation so I got a little bit of money to help me go through. And he was very, very helpful to me. He treated me like a person. Dr. Puterbaugh was probably the most helpful person there because, and I know I'm rambling and jumping around a bit, but when it came time to graduate, the school was not going to allow me to graduate because I had taken too much chemistry and not enough electives.
LW: Wait, so you took too many main courses.
JB: Yes.
LW: And not enough electives.
JB: Yes.
LW: Oh, that's interesting.
JB: Yes. Because see I was under a program they had established at the time called the B.S. degree in Chemistry with ACS certification.
LW: Okay.
JB: The ACS certification was that you took graduate level courses at the same time and that gave you a more solid foundation. I’ll tell you more about that in a minute. Anyways, because I had taken so many chemistry courses and not enough electives, then they were not going to let me graduate. But Dr. Puterbaugh waived that requirement so that I could graduate with the rest of my class. Now I was talking about the ACS certification. In years to come, whereas I thought that was really going to get me in the door with employment, it actually hindered me because people, employers would tell me I was overqualified which was ridiculous because they had to teach you how to do your job their way anyway. But it was just a reason not to hire you. Now my class, my chemistry class, I was the only Black in the class as I recall. And there were two males, myself and the guy who became one of my closest friends. His name was Charles Knight. Charles Knight was a chemistry major. He was taking the A.B. or the B.A. path and we became very good friends. At least while we were in college. After college, we sort of drifted apart and we never saw each other for a couple years after that. But while we were there, I had quite a few friends, black and white. Mostly, young ladies. I’ve never been a ladies man, but you know [laughter], I just didn't have what it took. But anyways, we were friends. Some were from backgrounds similar to mine. But I knew Charles was a very, very nice person. He invited me to his wedding but of course he told me aside that his parents wouldn't want me there so of course I didn't go. But we became friends thereafter. I had another friend named William Harrell. William Harrell had been in the Army before he came to UNCG. And he was a very unusual person. Very likeable, very hairy, 4
and he was just a nice guy. And he loved music. I loved music too so. We would sit up in his room and listen to recordings and things like that so.
On a negative side, I had some instructors who were less than, I'm going to use the word humanitarian. Most of the problems that I had, unusually these were people from Texas. I don't know why. But I had a sociology instructor. In this class there were forty females, white females, and me. And they would sit in a ring of empty seats around me. They would sit sideways in their seat so they could keep an eye on me and would not talk to me. There was one girl who would talk to me and of course they convinced her that it wasn't a good thing to talk to me. But this instructor would make their comments, racial comments to me, to the class really, to try to get an emotional response out of me. Things like, “Black people aren't stupid. They're just lazy.” And I'm not in the position to comment on that so I just kept my mouth shut and just took it. I had instructors who would take points away from me for no reason on tests. I had a chemistry instructor in chemistry lab who would take points away. I had an instructor in a special graduate level course called Paint and Coatings. He would take points away from me. You know, things that would make you feel that, you know, you're not going to make it no matter what. And I was determined that I was going to make it. I studied extremely [hard]. I'm not a great student, but I studied hard just to make it. And those courses that I felt like, math that I was not that good in, I really tried. Now there were some other courses that I was not good at like physics and [laughter] I didn't do well in physics at all. And I didn't do well in physical chemistry the first semester but I did well the second semester. So, I would try. So I didn't have a great grade point average but it was I would say was decent for the level of study I was in and for the field of study.
Now, I don't know what to say other than after college, I didn't get the first job that I applied for which was at P. Lorillard that was in Greensboro. That was the company that told me I was overqualified. And I took a job at A&T State University as a laboratory instructor. And I would have to say that I was very good at that job. In fact, because of the level of study that I had, there were certain instruments and techniques that I knew that some of the other instructors didn't know. Now that was a boon to the students but it was not exactly a boon to me because there were instructors who had been there who didn't like the idea that this newcomer, things like gas chromatography. They didn't know gas chromatography where I had been taught it by Dr. Knight. And so, that, it wasn't the greatest place to be. It was a good school and I did a great job. I’m going to say I had students who went on to become doctors who would indicate that I had taught them well. But I lost that job due to politics and also due to my stubbornness. I didn't want to work during the summer as an instructor. I wanted to continue with Upward Bound. And the head of the department didn't like that so he dismissed me.
So, after that, I met my wife. Well, my future wife who was one of my students at A&T. And after about nine months of going together, we got married. She was still a student and I took two jobs to make enough money so that, well to make more than she did at least. I worked as a stockman at Sears and Roebuck warehouse and at night I worked as a janitor in a chemical repackaging company. I didn't tell either one I had a chemical degree. So, I worked there for about a year and a job opening came up at the Sears warehouse and my supervisor wanted me to take it because they had found out that I did have a degree and instead I took a job with the high school equivalency program of North Carolina which was sponsored by A&T, okay, and I was a science instructor there 5
teaching migrant and seasonal workers who had good potential but did not have educational opportunities. So I did that for about a year and a half. And then I got my first commercial chemistry job in High Point, my hometown. Worked for a company that made coatings for furniture. And, well I'm going brag. I was good [laughter]. I was good. I became responsible for the ultra-violet curable coatings and through my developments. And of course I had a good mentor named Philip Long. Through my efforts, the company's profits went from about $300,000 a year to $3 million a year based on products that I developed. And therefore I thought that, you know, I needed a promotion. Well, they gave the promotion to a coworker who was not as good and was white. And, it angered me so I quit. And of course they offered me more money. I made reasonably good money. Couldn't tell it by looking at my surroundings. But I didn't, I was offered a job in Charlotte [North Carolina] with a textile manufacturing company but my wife at the time didn't want to live in Charlotte because Charlotte was a tough town, a dangerous town and we had a young child, she had a child before we married, and that I eventually adopted, she didn't like it. But that's where we ended up anyway.
I was offered a job with a company in Statesville, North Carolina. This company was part of a large paper manufacturer. I won't mention the name. But, they made laminates for furniture. Most furniture. Now this top here is wood but most furniture is a laminate and is a laminate made out of saturated paper. Therefore they could use particle board and they could make a cheap but good furniture. So I made laminates for that and once again, I excelled. I even dabbled with chemical engineering so that we could produce our own coatings. We were buying them from a local coatings company. So I enabled our company to make most of the coatings ourselves. And, also, I was able to revamp all of our existing products such that I doubled the product line. And once again, pride got to me. I wanted a promotion. By the way, I never had a promotion in my life [laughter]. I've always had to quit to take another job somewhere else. I ended up in a better position but I’ve never been promoted. That's always bothered me.
So, after six years with this company, I, they wouldn't allow me to transfer to their New York facility where they had their key technical facility. And, so, like always, I quit. I took a job, and this was out of my field. My field was, by then, product development with coatings. I took a job with a tobacco company in Louisville, Kentucky. I won't name them either. But, that didn't go very well. I was there for two years and I think I had too much integrity for that company because they had me involved in some, some developments that later got them into a lot of trouble. They no longer exist. But anyway. I worked on things like additives in cigarettes. I was called a flavor chemist where I would concoct flavors and additives to go in cigarettes. Most people in America don't know what cigarettes taste like because they are full of additives. In Canada where they smoke the basic tobacco that's a different thing. But we were putting additives to increase the nicotine content, increase the flavor, and the kick, and I worked in those things. And I made two big mistakes. One, we had a symposium with some of the affiliates from around the world. And I felt that some of the participants were not forthcoming and I stated that. Which was, you know, my big mouth. I shouldn't have done that. That got me in trouble. And, I also wrote a paper and published it without full approval and the paper was sent to one of our affiliates in Europe. And the guy loved it. It was about the usefulness of honey in cigarettes. And, the company didn't like the idea that I had published a paper without their full consent. So they put me on probation. That meant 6
you got six months before they were going to fire you. And that's exactly what they did [laughter]. They fired me. And, of course, I couldn't get another job with another cigarette manufacturer.
So, at that time, I decided to go back to what I knew best which was coatings. So I took a job with a company that manufactured lottery tickets. And see on that wall, I’ve got three patents for lotteries. And, I didn't do it all myself but I was the principal developer on that. And what we did, like I say, I would try to do my best no matter what it was. So I applied myself. I ran a good color eye so I could match colors very well on lottery tickets. I had a good coatings background so I knew coatings and how to make them do what you wanted them to do. So I was with them for about seven years and they sold the company to a competitor and, of course, the competitor was in Texas and this was, I was in Georgia. And so they sold the company to a competitor who didn't particularly want me coming along. So, I went across the river, as we say, to another competitor and took a job there [laughter]. That's the story of my life. You don't like what I do? I quit and I go someplace else. Unfortunately, that was my last chemistry job. In the meantime, I had worked for a company in Tennessee after I left the tobacco company. I worked for a company in Tennessee that made metalized papers. You've seen like the Michelob labels? The shiny Michelob labels? That's metalized paper. Okay, so I worked for this company that did that and developed special coatings that were cheaper but had better gloss. And there was one process that my company, they wanted to patent but they couldn't at the time. So, once again, a competitor, this time a competitor came to me and asked if I would come and work for them.
Now, of course, I did it because, stubborn I guess. You know. They wouldn't let me be technical director although I was doing everything a technical director did. Had quite a few lab assistants working for me. I even had a master's degree chemist working for me and I didn't have a master’s degree. But anyway, I went to work for the competitor company and I took my process and revamped it such that they could use it. And because I had developed the process with the previous company, this company couldn't patent it. So what they wanted me to do was to sign a secrecy non-compete agreement so that I couldn't work for anybody else. Of course, I wasn't going to do that so [snaps fingers] they fired me [laughter]. And I went to work for a competitor in Canada. And while I was there, I told you I dabbled in chemical engineering. Well, I revamped the whole system. Got them to upgrade their equipment, rebuilt their coating systems to the point they were commercially successful and we were taking business away from my old company. My old company bought them out, [snaps fingers] fired me again [laughter]. Also, I've been fired four, five, six times. And each time I recovered until that last firing. That last firing when I was in Georgia, I couldn't get over that one because I was working as a laboratory manager and they hired a coordinator. They wouldn't even consider me for the job. They hired a guy. And it was a man I knew from previous experience. And they asked me whether I thought they should hire him. Well, I knew what his experience was. It had nothing to do with product development. He was a salesman. That was not to say anything against him it's just that, I did not think he was suitable for the position and I told them that, having too much integrity you know. And they told him what I said and hired him. And of course he had a vendetta against me so in two years of my working and trying to develop water-based coatings, they were not water-based at the time, trying to develop water-based coatings, and everything that I did, he would do over and mess it up. 7
But then, you know, it was my fault. So, one day, I made a coating that I knew would work and up made enough for a press trial and he wouldn't try it. And so, stubborn again, I sat in my office and did nothing while he was on the floor trying to get the crap that he made to work. And, when quitting time came I left, went home. Next day, I came to work, he fired me because I didn't show enough initiative and enough to assist him whereas I thought that all you had to do was let me put my coating on and we would have been a lot further ahead. So my stubbornness has always gotten me in trouble.
But I will say this much, as a chemist, I did my best. I appreciate the experience that I got from UNCG, the good, bad and the ugly. It enabled me to do as well as I did in a world that was not geared towards black success. I was able to travel. I went to Europe on my company's behalf. Went to the Czech Republic. Went to England several times on jobs I was working on. So, and of course, working in Canada as a consultant. I've had, I think, a fairly rich life as a chemist and I owe that to UNCG and the instructors that I get there and I appreciate that and that's what I appreciate about UNCG. In fact, so much so that, I recommended that my niece go to UNCG. She graduated two years ago from UNCG. I would recommend UNCG to anybody who wanted to go. Not just because it’s part of the university system but the Greensboro campus is unique. It's a good place and even though there were bad times there were more good times, so. That's basically what I have to say.
Oh, because I couldn't get a job in chemistry anymore, I went to work in hell [laughter].
LW: In where?
JB: In hell.
LW: Oh, okay.
JB: In hell. I went to work in hell. I went to work for a company that operated a call center. And call centers are hell [laughter]. And I worked there for nine years and just couldn't take it anymore so I retired. So, here I am retired. So. That's my story, Lisa [laughter].
LW: [laughter] Thank you for sharing. I do have additional follow up questions. And there are some more, if you wouldn't mind me asking?
JB: That's fine. That’s fine.
LW: Just from the information you've shared already for clarification. You said you applied to several colleges. Do you remember all of the college you applied to?
JB: Well, let's see. There was Oberlin.
LW: Okay, in Ohio?
JB: Yeah. I applied to, what's the one in Atlanta [Georgia]?
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LW: Morehouse?
JB: No, it was the predominately white college in Atlanta. They accepted me but wouldn’t give me any, they gave me a smidgen of financial aid. I can't remember what. That's been almost sixty years ago [laughter].
LW: [Laughter] That's okay. I just wanted to follow up.
JB: But they did. Carolina didn't. They did accept me.
LW: UNC Chapel Hill, Carolina.
JB: Yeah. But, if you need another pen, there's one right there.
LW: Oh no, that was my [silent] whoop. I went to Carolina too. That was my whoop.
JB: Okay. But, they had a big medical school there. And it's been so long I can't remember.
LW: That’s okay.
JB: But anyway, like I say I applied to about five. And I had a high school guidance counselor who encouraged me to apply for these places. I guess she had delusions of grandeur for me in that. I was accepted in all as I stated, but they were. She also encouraged me to apply to the Air Force Academy [Colorado Springs, Colorado]. She had friends who were able to get me in but my mother wouldn't approve because I had an older brother who had been killed while in the Air Force and you know how mothers are, especially about their boys so. So I didn’t get that. That's it, I don't remember.
LW: I appreciate that. Just to make sure of the timeline. What did you graduate high school?
JB: 1964.
LW: Okay, so then you skipped a year.
JB: Skipped a year.
LW: You started Central in '65/'66 [1965/1966]?
JB: Yes.
LW: Okay. So then you came to UNCG?
JB: In '67 [1967].
LW: In '67.
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JB: I had aid for another semester.
LW: Okay so you came to UNCG in 1967. Just want to make sure I have the correct timeline. And you talked about Upward Bound. Could you describe what that was?
JB: Okay, Upward Bound was a federal program that took promising high school kids who had good potential but their financial and their home settings were not good for their success. So during the summer they would take, they would go to a college campus like A&T and UNCG, and they would take courses in mathematics and English and a few other things to boost their abilities when they went back to school. And I did that as a counselor for at least three or four years. And I became a coordinator for the kids who were college bound for the last couple of years. So basically, that's what Upward Bound, and I think Upward Bounds still exits. I'm not sure. But this was during President's Nixon's years and he didn't like federal programs that helped poor people so he would have found a way to close Upward Bound if he could.
LW: But you did work this job, it was before, during, and a little bit of time after your time at UNCG.
JB: Yes.
LW: Okay. And you mentioned you had several jobs. I know you mentioned the National Science Foundation. Were there other jobs at UNCG?
JB: Well actually, that was the only job I had at UNCG.
LW: Okay.
JB: I worked as, how do I call it? A laboratory assistant to Dr. David Knight.
LW: Okay.
JB: His research was funded by the National Science Foundation and therefore he could apply some of that funding to me. So I worked on projects, and I guess that’s how I got my start as a product development chemist rather than, you know, basic research. And I was successful with him at producing, now this is not going to mean anything but it's just a name, but a norbornene compound that he was trying to find.
LW: You said a norbornene.
JB: Norbornene. N-o-r-b-o-r-n-e-n-e.
LW: N-e-n-e.
JB: Okay.
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LW: It had double carbon bonds?
JB: Yes.
LW: I still remember something [from chemistry].
JB: Yes. And, after, I worked on that for years and was able to synthesize it. About that much. But it was enough he could put it in the NMR [nuclear magnetic resonance (machine)] and tell the structure. That was my one big success as a student. The person who worked after me couldn't duplicate it [laughter]. I shouldn't laugh but that’s funny. But anyway.
LW: It was your success, your success. So you mentioned during your first year there wasn't any dormitories on campus for male students. Can you tell me, do you remember where those houses you mentioned that were on the periphery were located?
JB: Okay, let's see. What is the name of the main cafeteria there? That is right across from the student union?
LW: There's Elliot Student Union. Right now it's called Moran Plaza.
JB: Okay.
LW: But I'm not sure what it was called. As a graduate student, I didn't really venture over to that side of campus very often but I do know where the dining hall is, I just don't know the name of it [laughter].
JB: Okay, well the houses were right across the street from Elliott Hall and on Walker Avenue I think.
LW: Okay, on Walker.
JB: Walker Avenue. And there were about three or four houses, two story houses. And that's where the men who lived on campus, that's where they lived.
LW: In those houses.
JB: Most of the people, most of the men lived in the city, you know in apartments or wherever. But that’s where they had housing for men.
LW: Okay, I know you briefly talked about being at the house. You had Charles Cole as a roommate or a housemate. What would you do for social activities for fun when you were not studying?
JB: Very little.
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LW: Okay.
JB: Charles and I would go into, it wasn't downtown, but to the movies something like that. But that was basically all there was to do. Or, we would take the bus and go over to A&T.
LW: That was one of my other questions [laughter]. If you went, did you interact with any of the students at A&T or at Bennett.
JB: A&T.
LW: A&T.
JB: Mostly A&T. During that time my younger brother was at A&T. So, he was there during the '68 [1968] riots where they National Guard shot up.
LW: After Dr. King's assassination? Okay, he was there.
JB: Yes. But basically there wasn't a lot of entertainment to do. You could go to the student union, Elliott Hall, you know. I think you could play billiards there but there wasn't that much to do. So I was into music and so I had a little Singer battery operated turn table.
LW: Okay.
JB: And I've been collecting records since high school. Since 1960. And so that's what I did for entertainment. I listened to my records. I'm a classical freak.
LW: Classical music is awesome.
JB: [Laughter]
LW: I think so but I realize I'm not like other people.
JB: My kids used to tell me when were riding somewhere and I had the music on classical music, "Daddy, that music makes me dizzy!" [Laughter]
LW: I understand. So you mentioned that Richard Tucker convinced you to go to UNCG. Was there anything about what he said? Did he say it was a good school?
JB: Money.
LW: Oh, the money. That's right you did mention.
JB: The money.
LW: The financial aid.
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JB: Yes, the financial aid.
LW: And how did your family and friends react to your decision to go to UNCG? It was once a predominately all-white school and now.
JB: I don't recall if there was a reaction. It was like I have always had to be rather independent because for most of my life I didn't live with my family. I lived with my grandmother, my maternal grandmother. And, therefore I had to be very independent in my thinking and actions anyways, so. It didn't. My father was not one who would give you praise and my mother she would give you as much love as she could but that’s it. But they didn't care where I went.
LW: I understand. I know you mentioned you're from High Point. And so, being from Guilford County, did you already know about UNCG before Mr. Tucker mentioned it to you? Did you know it by reputation?
JB: I knew it as Woman's College but I didn't know it as UNCG.
LW: As UNCG. What would you say was Woman's College reputation, you know at that time?
JB: A premiere school for women, for white women.
LW: Okay [laughter].
JB: That’s it. And the fact that they, first they integrated with women and then they were going to integrate with men. You know, the picture that you get in your mind is that they were getting federal assistance to do this otherwise they probably would not do it. Okay, no one has ever said that to me. It's just that the, that's the picture that you get in your mind. That they have progressed mightily since that time but for the mere fact that they did not curb the enthusiasm of some of the bigots that they had employed, you know.
LW: Do you happen to remember your first days on campus?
JB: Somewhat. It was, it was no big deal.
LW: Okay.
JB: Here's why. As I stated earlier, my father was self-employed. He was a furnace serviceman. And in those days, the only people who had furnaces, predominately, were white and therefore, all of his clientele were white. So I, because he would require that all the boys would work with him, I had no problem associating with white people. Many of them were good to me. You know, and, treated me like a human being. So when I went to UNCG that was no big deal. It's just like when I worked that first year in Chapel Hill. As long as you didn't hit me, we were fine. You could call me names if you wanted to but, you know, what's in a name? 13
LW: That is true, that is true. So you mentioned, there was not a whole lot to do socially. Do you include extracurricular activities in that as well? In the yearbook it listed you on Honor Court?
JB: That was about all that I did.
LW: About all.
JB: I didn’t have time. I was on the Honor Court. I was on the Chancellor's Cabinet. I was a floor monitor in the dormitory. And that's it. I didn't participate because I was so busy with my coursework.
LW: Yes. One of the major created organizations at that time was the Neo-Black Society so I was going to ask if you knew anything about that.
JB: I knew about that. I will say I went to a few meetings. I knew Linda Kelly, one of the founders, some other people.
LW: Linda Kelly, a founder.
JB: I was peripherally involved in the foundation of that group, you know.
LW: But they were still pretty much getting organized, getting started when you were coming through. Okay. Just going through the list trying to make sure to be thorough.
JB: Okay.
LW: Trying to be thorough. To you, is there really a distinction about what the political atmosphere was like during the sixties on campus or was it kind of the same as you've already described?
JB: I didn't get. Well, I've never been a political person even during the early sixties when people were marching and protesting. I didn't get involved in it because of my father and because of his clientele and I couldn't jeopardize that for him and since he was the breadwinner. So I only got peripherally involved with the Neo-Black Society. I'm going to say this even though a lot of people will not understand it. But I'm going to say it because I believe it. I think that the worst thing that ever happened to black people was integration. And I say that because I remember when I was in school, teachers cared about what students learned. And, you know, but today, teaching is a job. If you get it, fine, if you don't fine. So, I think that has hurt us as a people because we don't have any role models. We don't have, well, I say we don't have enough role models. And, it's like that teacher said, Blacks are not stupid, they are just lazy. We're lazy. We want it handed to us. We don't want to work for anything. And that's what I tried to instill in my kids. My daughter has a master's degree in speech pathology. My son graduated, made it out of high school. He's a very brilliant mind but he was in that age group where, “I don't want 14
to go to school. I go to school to meet girls.” This type of thing. So, that's just my opinion. My political opinion. You know. I've always been democratic in my voting. One time I considered voting for Richard Nixon. I guess I was mentally ill [laughter]. But that's it.
LW: I've heard that comment made before. My parents grew up during the same time period. And so just being around various generations and being able to see especially even in my own family. And that is something I’ve heard before and so I understand what you mean. Alright. Well, I don’t have any more formal questions. Is there anything else you would like to add to the interview?
JB: I enjoyed it more than I thought I would because I am introverted by nature but once I get started, you know, I tend to run on and talk and talk and I'll say what's on my mind, even though you might delete it which is fine but I'll say what's on my mind. But I've enjoyed you, I've enjoyed our time together, and I enjoyed doing the interview. And I appreciate it.
LW: Well, thank you so very much. And again, I like to say thank you. I know I mentioned earlier that I've used the interviews in classes and I know having these [interviews] made accessible to the public especially even with the younger generations coming after me now that I've graduated, be able to understand a bit better about life and the topic.
JB: Well, good.
LW: Thank you very much. I'm going to end the recording.
[End of Interview]