Oral history interview with Francine McAdoo Scott, 2013 [text/print transcript]

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THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT GREENSBORO
INSTITUTIONAL MEMORY COLLECTION
INTERVIEWEE: Francine McAdoo Scott
INTERVIEWER: Hermann Trojanowski
DATE: June 18, 2013
HT: Today is Tuesday, June 18, 2013. My name is Hermann Trojanowski. I’m in Jackson Library with Francine McAdoo Scott, Class of 1964, and we’re here to conduct an oral history interview for the UNCG Institutional Memory Collections’ African American Institutional Memory Project. Mrs. Scott, thank you so much for coming in and talking with me today. Welcome to UNCG [The University of North Carolina at Greensboro].
FS: You’re welcome. Thank you; I’m glad to be here.
HT: Well, let’s get started by my asking you about your background: about where you were born and when, and that sort of thing.
FS: Well, I was born in 1942 in Greensboro, North Carolina, and I think I was born in the only black hospital that was here. I am the second of eight children.
HT: And what was it like growing up in Greensboro in the 1950s and 1960s.
FS: The 1950s and the 1960s: It was pretty interesting, I think, to grow up during that time. It was the time that a counter-culture movement was beginning. There’s—I don’t remember a lot of the specifics, but I do remember that a lot of young people were being sort of activists against the culture. It was the time of the flower children. When I came to UNCG, for example, I was able to wear the same clothes every day because clothes were not important, and, you know, as a flower child, I could just wear anything I wanted to, and did. And so it wasn’t expensive, clothes, you know, it wasn’t expensive to come to UNCG. So it was just a very free time, and it was a very interesting time.
HT: Where did you go to high school?
FS: I went to Dudley High School, which was [at that time] the only high school that [black students could attend]. It still is the only black high school [in Greensboro]—and it was created in 1929. My father graduated from that high school; my uncle graduated from that high school [as did all] of my brothers. But when the integration movement started in the ’60s, my sisters—the next child in line graduated from Smith High School, which was integrated at that time. And then the next child graduated from Smith High School. The 2
baby sister actually went to Dudley and graduated from Dudley. So most of my brothers and sisters graduated from Dudley High School.
HT: And what was your favorite subject in high school?
FS: I would say probably English. I liked [all of] the subjects. I don’t think I had a favorite subject. I liked the subjects if I liked the teacher, and so I liked my English teachers for the most part; I liked my science teachers. I particularly liked my physics teacher, [so physics was] probably my favorite subject. I liked most of my teachers, and I liked most of my subjects.
HT: I know you attended Woman’s College when it was still Woman’s College. You started in 19—I guess you came in the fall of 1960. Is that correct?
FS: Yes.
HT: What made you choose Woman’s College?
FS: Because it was cheaper than Bennett College [Greensboro, North Carolina], and actually it was an interesting thought to go to some place—that I could go to some place other than Bennett. Bennett was the place that all upstanding, full-blooded American girls—black girls—went, and [the so called] “pretty girls,” [which meant that] I was supposed to go to Bennett. I didn’t like the idea that I was, you know, considered pretty, or that’s why that I would go to Bennett, and I didn’t want to go to A&T [North Carolina Agriculture and Technical State University] because actually young ladies didn’t go to A&T. Mostly men went to A&T because it was an agriculture and technical school. The girls went to Bennett, and because I was sort of getting into the counter culture movement as a teenager, I chose UNCG because that was against the grain of the culture.
HT: Did you ever consider going to a school out of town?
FS: No, I couldn’t afford it. [I was] from a family of eight kids, and my family was poor, financially poor. I didn’t have the money, and so UNCG was a state school, and it—the Woman’s College rather—was cheaper. And it was significantly cheaper than Bennett. I got a scholarship to Bennett, and it was still cheaper than Bennett.
HT: Well, tell me about your transition from high school to college. What was that like?
FS: I would say it was difficult to leave a high school where I was a straight-A student, and come to a college where I didn’t—I don’t think I saw any As, the first year at least, and—or Bs or Cs; mostly Cs and Ds and a couple of Fs—and I’d never had an F in my life. And so that was a strange thing, so it was a very difficult transition in that regard. Socially, it wasn’t that difficult because I was in Greensboro. I lived on campus, which meant that I was away from home, but I wasn’t away from home. I didn’t live in my house with all the kids, so that was kind of a nice change. I was out on my own, but I was still at home. I was still in Greensboro, right near the family so I didn’t have any 3
withdrawals in that regard. The few friends that I had—some are still in Greensboro—had not gone away to college, and so I had a few friends here. So there wasn’t a great transition socially. It was a different world, coming to UNCG. It was like a different planet, another whole universe. It was so different. It was just like a sea of white people. You know, we used to wonder why white people couldn’t distinguish one black person from another because we all were different colors/shades. Well, when I got to UNCG, everybody seemed to be the same color so it was, oh, my goodness. So it was a great culture shock in a sense to come to a place with all white women. It was just a major culture shock.
HT: Did you get any help in that transition period from fellow students or anybody in administration, or anything like that?
FS: No. No, help at all. And I really respect the colleges now that have student support services that are especially for, maybe, the minority students: the black students and so forth on campus. There are a lot of special assistants for freshmen now. Then there wasn’t. It was like you sink or swim, and God help you. And so I didn’t have—I didn’t feel any special support at all, and if there was any support, I might have felt negative support as opposed to, Let us see how we can help you make it here on campus. I don’t think there was anybody interested in doing that.
HT: Well, tell me about your first days on campus. What was that like in meeting your roommates and—?
FS: Oh, it was just, I guess, a normal college entry. It was all new and interesting. It was all so different from anything I had experienced before. I didn’t have any kind of orientation as to what to expect. When we came on campus, I was in a section of the dorm with all the black girls, and somehow I kind of knew that that was going to happen, and so that wasn’t anything that I didn’t expect. And of course I had a black roommate, and it was difficult socially because I had to study, and then we had just sort of relationship, you know, friendships among ourselves, but beyond that, there was nothing on campus that we were involved with, or that I was involved with. There was nothing on campus at all. It wasn’t like I was coming into a major college campus. It was a major college campus, you know. So I knew that it was going to be different, but it was not anything that I felt particularly excited about.
HT: Had you been on campus prior to coming over for the first time?
FS: My father may have driven me through the campus. The fact that I would go to college was never [a question]—There was never a question about that because every Sunday my father would drive all of us (my brothers and sisters) around Greensboro in our old car, and so we would visit the [college] campuses. So I knew where Bennett College’s campus was. I knew what was on that campus, and I knew what that—You know, that was where I was going. All of my life, probably from the age of two, I was going to Bennett College, and so I’m pretty sure he drove me to [UNCG] at one point. My mother 4
didn’t drive; that’s why I said my father—so I’m sure he drove me through the campus here, and that was the extent of it.
HT: Now you mentioned a few minutes ago about living on campus in a separate area. Which dorm was that; do you recall?
FS: You know, I don’t. It was—
HT: Could it have been Coit [Residence Hall] maybe?
FS: I think it was Coit.
HT: Because I’ve heard other alumni mention Coit.
FS: Yes. In fact, I’ve been on campus trying to identify that dorm, and I think I know where the dorm is but I don’t think it’s Coit now. It might be.
HT: All the dorms in the Quad were just renovated so there’s Coit.
FS: Okay, so that was it.
HT: Yes.
FS: I’ll have to look for it again.
HT: It’s not that far away. I can show you afterwards.
FS: I’m pretty sure I know where it is.
HT: And what was dorm life like for you that first year or those first few months that you were here?
FS: It was basically just sort of getting to know my roommate; trying to get adjusted to studying which was something I had never done, and so I was pretty involved in just trying to figure out how to do my work, my class work. And I didn’t—I don’t think I particularly did anything else but try and figure out how to study and how to do the class work; getting adjusted. And it was nice being in a dorm room. It was nice. That was different. I hadn’t had any experience like that, living with another person. And I—One of the things I don’t recall. The person that I finally roomed with was not the person I started out with, and I can’t recall who it was I started out with, and I’m going to probably ask Marian [Thornhill McClure, Class of 1964] and Janet [Harper Gordon, Class of 1964] if they recall, because they probably do. But I know it was one of the black students.
HT: And who was your—
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FS: And so I eventually roomed with Diane Oliver [Class of 1964] who was my roommate for the remainder of the time that we were here. That might have been the second year that I roomed with Diane.
HT: I understand that she died in a motorcycle accident.
FS: Yes, at the University of Iowa where she was working on her master’s degree in journalism. [pause] No, she had just finished her degree. She had just gotten her degree, and was out—She was celebrating, but she actually just went on an errand on a motorcycle. She wasn’t just riding. She went on an errand, and was on the back of the motorcycle, [when] a car backed out in front of them. Of course she went headfirst.
HT: And probably didn’t have a helmet on.
FS: Yes, probably not. That was one of the major traumas of my early adult life, when that happened.
HT: And that happened just a few years after you graduated, I’m assuming.
FS: Yes, and it was very traumatic for me.
HT: Now was she your roommate, you said, the entire rest of—
FS: It was for at least three years.
HT: Three years, right. And were you all living in Coit at that time, or did you move to different—?
FS: Well, we moved to a dorm across the—I think it might have been Mendenhall [Residence Hall] across the street.
HT: Mendenhall, yes.
FS: Across the drive, and in that dorm we had what they used to call the faculty quarters—and somebody has probably mentioned that to you—
HT: Right.
FS: —and they had their own private bathrooms, and that was, you know, part of the campus getting used to black girls being on campus, so we were segregated in that regard. And then some of the white girls thought, “Well, wait a minute now, why should they have private rooms with bathrooms, and we don’t? And they’re black, and we’re white, so why should they have those nice rooms.” So we were moved out of those rooms, because the black—[I mean the] white girls complained about it.
HT: And then into regular rooms. 6
FS: Regular rooms.
HT: I have heard the story where—I guess this might have been a bit earlier—where some of the girls started complaining because there were several rooms vacant in the wing where the African American students were housed, and in the other wings they were crowded like two or—well, there were three to a room and things like that. As a matter of fact, I interviewed Mrs. Rubin [member of the Class of 1964, but did not graduate] last week. I think I may have mentioned that. And she said that she was one of the first white students who said, “Well, this is ridiculous. Here we are three to a room,” or something like that. “Let’s just move down to these vacant rooms,” so that happened fairly—I’ve forgotten what year. She said she was here from ’60 to ’62 so it must have happened in the fall of ’60, I think she said. So it happened fairly quickly. I thought that was very—I had not heard that before, so I thought that was very, very interesting.
FS: Yes, I didn’t know that, but that doesn’t surprise me at all.
HT: Well, what did you think of the dining hall food? Do you have any recollection of that?
FS: I have major recollections.
HT: Okay, good.
FS: My recollection of that may be different from others, because students tend to not like cafeteria food. I loved it; I loved the food. We would have steak, and I was aware that the students at A&T and Bennett would have bologna sandwiches in the evening on Sunday, and we’d have steak. And I’m thinking, “Oh, okay.” And that was my, you know, awareness of major differences. I became more aware of segregation and discrimination and differences when I came here as a part of UNCG than I ever would have known about had I gone to Bennett and A&T. That was part of the major value of my education here at UNCG, the Woman’s College. It’s sort of become UNCG to me now.
HT: Right.
FS: But I was introduced to how different things were between blacks and whites, and how—where we stood as a community, and how the other public institutions did not have equality, you know, among public institutions. Black public institutions were not equal to white public institutions when it came to money, and so the kids at A&T didn’t have anywhere near what we had here at UNCG. And I often wondered, Why don’t they have as much as we have? They are state-supported just as we are, and I would grow to resent that, not really understanding how that happened or why that happened. Why the food here would be so much better than the food there, and that’s what I remember. And of course I grew up on a farm, a small truck farm, and my mother cooked what we would, you know, grow on the farm, and because we were in a large family. My mother would have to cook for ten people when she cooked. We would have fried chicken a lot, and it was absolutely delicious, but there would not be a variety of food. But here at UNCG, I 7
was introduced to a lot of food. In fact, I was introduced to steak here. I never had steak before, so I loved the food. I thought it was fantastic food.
HT: I know I’ve heard other students say that they gained twenty, twenty-five pounds.
FS: I did, that first year. I had all the milk I wanted; I had all the—I had everything I wanted to eat, and I gained twenty-five—I literally gained about twenty-five pounds. I sure did.
HT: And what did your family think when they saw you for the first time?
FS: I don’t think they—I don’t recall too much about that. I’m trying to remember when I had a problem with one of my teeth, one of my wisdom teeth, and the tooth was rotting out in my mouth, and I think that was either my first year, or my second year here. I went home for, like, Christmas, and whenever I would eat, [the tooth] would bother me so much I was literally screaming, so they thought I was losing my mind. [laughter] And so I went to the dentist, and the dentist, for some reason, didn’t see the rotten tooth in my mouth that might have been causing the problem, and so that was—That took priority over maybe my weight or anything else that might have happened. And again, I’m not sure but I gained a lot of weight. I know that. But, you know—I mean, I could afford to gain it, so I guess I didn’t look that different, you know, but that tooth problem just sort of took precedence. I guess they were glad I was okay, and so then the weight wasn’t something that they mentioned to me at all.
HT: Now did you go home quite often during that first year or so?
FS: No, I didn’t. I didn’t; I just—my brother—Well, that first year, I would just go home at the appropriate times, not often at all. I was here most of the time except breaks, and then I would go home. And when the problem with the wisdom tooth was solved, things were sort of back to normal. But things were kind of hyper, and I think that was my first year. I was kind of up in the air.
HT: Well, we’ve already touched on this a little bit, but do you have any other recollections of what social life was like for you the four years you were at Woman’s College?
FS: For the four years.
HT: Yes, social life.
FS: I didn’t really have much of a social life. I didn’t participate in college, you know, activities. There was nothing here that I’m aware that I was invited to participate in. And then the memory thing is that I don’t recollect too much, but I don’t think I was involved in anything of any significance socially. I didn’t socialize with the girls on campus, except maybe, you know, going to the dining hall. I had a couple of white friends, and, in fact, just before coming here, I remembered one of the names of one, because I was trying to remember it before the Reunion Committee meeting, and I couldn’t remember it, but she wasn’t there. But I did finally remember the one name of the one white student 8
that I really respected for befriending me. She was a very good friend, and I liked her a lot. But just generally there was nothing to do on campus. Now, I kind of regretted maybe not going to a black school, because I didn’t have the kind of social life I thought I should have been having at that point, but some of my classmates from high school were still—would come—I don’t know if they were still in Greensboro. I think they were at A&T, some of the male friends, and they would come over to visit me, and so that was fun.
HT: Did you go over to A&T for dances, or anything like that?
FS: No, I didn’t. I didn’t go anywhere because I was so busy trying to study, so I didn’t go off-campus for very much. And I’d walk up and down the street. You know, during the sixties, that year was a very—I guess it was a pretty exciting year because it was the year of the sit-in movements, and I don’t remember—I wasn’t participating in that but I remember we were very—We wanted to march, you know. Some of the downtown marches, we would participate—I would participate in those. The trans—When you mentioned the transition from high school, the one thing I remember, and I’ll never forget as long as I live: When I—Before I came to UNCG, I took a summer job. And I’m thinking also, I might have had to take a couple of classes in math. I think I did at A&T. But I also had a summer job. I would get up and go to A&T for this math class at 7:30 in the morning, and then I would go to the job. I was a chamber maid at a hotel nearby. And one day toward the end of the summer, just before going to college, I stopped at the drugstore on Tate Street to get a hotdog. I worked out here near UNCG at a place called the Manor House.
HT: I’ve heard of it.
FS: This place called the Manor House, and that was where I was. I made beds and did what, you know, chamber maids do, or the maids in hotels do, and I went in the drugstore to get a hotdog, and they said, “You can’t eat it in here. You have to take it outside.” At that moment I thought, I’m getting ready to go to UNCG. I’m getting ready to go to the school right across the street, and I cannot eat a hotdog in the drugstore that was on Tate Street. So I thought, “Now should I take this hotdog and throw it in his face, or what should I do? Should I take it outside and eat it,” and I thought, “Well, I’m hungry so I’m going to eat it.” That’s something I’ll never forget. And that was probably one of the major discrimination experiences of my life at that time, because, I mean, I lived in the country, and I lived around white people so I didn’t really feel the discrimination per se, because I was a child growing up, and so a lot of things I didn’t [experience] except the movies theaters where we had to go upstairs, or going to the back of the bus kind of thing, but that was all a part of life so it wasn’t something that I felt particularly—I didn’t feel that that was something that was peculiar to me just because I was black. It was just something that you do: you go to the back of the bus; and you go upstairs to the movie theater, so I didn’t think too much about it. So it wasn’t something that dramatically affected me, except at that moment I realized what [the movement was all about].
HT: You know, it wasn’t until 1963—and you probably remember this—that Tate Street was actually integrated. Students from this campus protested on Tate Street to integrate the 9
theater and The Corner, and various places like that. Did you get involved in that by any chance?
FS: I probably did to a limited extent.
HT: Right, because you were on the verge of graduating [unclear].
FS: Right, not to a great extent. I was—right—very definitely trying to make sure I graduated so—
HT: Let me backtrack a minute because you mentioned the Sit-ins, which is the Greensboro Sit-ins down at Woolworths in February 1960. You were still in high school at the time. Do you have any memories of that movement?
FS: Yes, because I knew the people involved in it. I didn’t go down there though, but I definitely remember it very, very well; very vividly. I kind of—You know, I remembered wanting to go—wanting to go down there, wanting to get involved. That part I remember. I remember feeling guilty not going down, not getting involved.
HT: Did your family stop you, or—?
FS: No, I lived in the country, and the transportation wasn’t great, so I would have gotten the bus, and I would have gone down there or could have my dad drop me off, but I did not get involved.
HT: I think some other Dudley students did get involved. Do you have any recollection of that, because I know Bennett College students—
FS: The year after I graduated—I know there were some demonstrations that Dudley got involved with after I left. I remember that, but during that particular movement, I’m not aware of Dudley students. I think some did, because the Dudley—They were the Dudley students who were involved in it in the first place.
HT: Right. And it was mainly college students from A&T and Bennett College, and a few from Greensboro College, and just a very few from Woman’s College, and a few from Guilford College. It sort of spread to Winston, and other cities in North Carolina.
FS: My girlfriend’s brother was one of them: Ezell Blair [Jr., now known as Jibreel Khazan] was one of the four.
HT: So you met some of the A&T Four students who started the Greensboro Sit-ins I guess.
FS: Yes. Well, I, for sure, knew her brother, you know, because I knew her and her family very well. In fact his father was my—one of my teachers at Dudley, so I knew the family. You know, you kind of know the families. And David Richmond: we knew him, and he 10
was one of the students at Dudley. Everybody knew him. And I knew him, and he was a friend of my brothers: that kind of thing.
HT: If we backtrack to Woman’s College days: Did you get involved at all in extracurricular activities, intramural sports, or theater, music performances, and things like that?
FS: No, I didn’t get involved in any extracurricular activities that I can recall. No sports; there was not very much in terms of sports.
HT: You did have to take PE [physical education] though, I assume.
FS: Yes, I took PE, and I almost failed it because I couldn’t swim, and there was this thing about black people not being able to swim. I remember that. [laughter] Not to mention, that back then we didn’t have pools or access to those kinds of facilities. I did almost fail and so one of the teachers said, “Well, you know, black people can’t swim because there’s a morphological difference between black people and white people.” And I said, “What? What are you talking about?” But anyway I took PE [physical education], and that was my experience in PE. I think I almost failed it because of the swimming. Then I learned how to play golf, and I think that was a part of PE. And I had never been on a golf course, but UNCG—the Woman’s College—had its own golf course.
HT: There’s still a little bit of it left. I think there are three or four small holes left behind. The school’s expanded over in that direction, so they’ve built buildings and things like that so there’s not much of it left. It’s just small remnants of it. And I was talking to one alum the other day, and she said she actually took fencing. Did you?
FS: No, I never—
HT: And then she was on the fencing team, which I thought—I didn’t even know they offered fencing, but—
FS: I’m trying to think of—I don’t think I played tennis here, but I learned how to play tennis during the summer. I think I did a lot during that summer before I came to UNCG, and then the following summer as well. I learned how to play tennis. I didn’t learn how to swim, but I learned how to play tennis, and I didn’t learn how to play golf, but I took golf as a part of my PE program.
HT: And what about college or campus traditions? Do you have any recollections of Rat Day?
FS: I don’t. I don’t have any recollection of any of that stuff. I really don’t. I certainly didn’t get involved in it.
HT: Rat Day was a sort of a hazing process for incoming freshmen, put on by the sophomore class, I understand.
FS: And I don’t recall that. Maybe vaguely, but I don’t really recall any of that. 11
HT: What about Jacket Day when you received your class jacket. That would have been during your sophomore year.
FS: I would have received my class jacket. I don’t remember that either. [laughter]
HT: It’s only been a few years so—[laughter] Oh, goodness. And Ring Day, when you got your class ring. Did you—?
FS: I don’t remember that either. I don’t remember any of that. And I don’t know why I don’t. It’s a funny thing, and my ring—I don’t have my ring. I think a boy took it off my finger or something so I don’t remember too much about any of that.
HT: Well, let’s see. You were here during the time that Woman’s College became UNCG. Do you have any memories of that time, what the feeling was like on campus, because—?
FS: It became UNCG the year after I left, I think.
HT: It was 1963.
FS: Oh, did it?
HT: Yes, and the first men came in the fall of ’64, which would have been after you graduated.
FS: The year after I graduated.
HT: After you graduated, right. About 280-some men—
FS: So it became UNCG the third year—my third year here.
HT: Yes, I think the official change was, I think—
FS: It wasn’t UNCG; it was—it had become—It was becoming—It had become coed.
HT: Right, it became coed, and it took about a year for the transition, because they had to modify a dorm on campus, and get ready for the men to come, and that sort of thing, so it officially became UNCG—I think it was July ’63, and then—
FS: Oh, really. Okay.
HT: And then when the men came, you know, they came in the fall of ’64, so it took about a year’s process for that to take place.
FS: Did my diploma have UNCG on it?
HT: It probably did since you graduated in— 12
FS: In ’64.
HT: Yes, May of ’64.
FS: I’ll have to take another look at that, because I [haven’t seen my diploma in a very long time].
HT: [unclear] transition.
FS: Yes, maybe.
HT: I know it took several years for the Woman’s College traditions to sort of fade away and become what we now call UNCG, but officially that happened in July of ’63.
FS: I thought my diploma had Woman’s College, but maybe not.
HT: As a matter of fact, the women who graduated—The Class of ’63 was the last official Woman’s College graduates, and of course that just happened because they just had their fiftieth anniversary back in April.
FS: Wow! Well.
HT: So a lot’s happened in the last fifty years. [laughter]
FS: I didn’t know that.
HT: Well, did—So I gather you don’t recall any kind of talk at that time going on about the change.
FS: The change.
HT: From Woman’s College, and that sort of thing.
FS: I don’t recall. My sense right now is that I would have had no qualms about it at all. I had, I think, been to the University of North Carolina at Chapel maybe, for summer school, and I loved it. And so that colored any kind of experience after that, that I might have had at the Woman’s College because, you know, I experienced men, being on campus with men, and I just thought that was heaven.
HT: Did you ever think about transferring to Chapel Hill.
FS: No.
HT: Because you could have as a, I think in those days it was junior, right [unclear, both talking].
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FS: I could have as a junior. I could have transferred as a junior, but my brother had preceded me at [North Carolina] State College in Raleigh, and he wanted to change his major, and he went to Chapel Hill, and he went back to Raleigh—No, he left Chapel Hill. So I never—I don’t know if that had anything to do with my not ever wanting to go to Chapel Hill or not, but I didn’t. It didn’t occur to me to even consider transferring to Chapel Hill.
HT: Well, I think you’ve already covered this a little bit about—I was going to ask you. Did you ever feel discriminated against while you were at Woman’s College. And you mentioned the hot dog incident, which was at—
FS: Which was on—Which was, you know, not on campus, per se. But otherwise I don’t recall anything, except being reminded of the fact that I had some differences in my physical makeup, and that’s why I couldn’t swim. [laughter]
HT: Did you ever learn how to swim?
FS: Yes, I did. I do swim now.
HT: Well, let me ask you a few questions about your courses that you took on campus, and the professors, and that sort of thing. What did you finally end up—What did you major in?
FS: I majored in sociology. I did have a really interesting sociology teacher—a woman—and she was a pretty popular woman but I can’t recall her name. She was a pretty prominent woman and I liked her a lot. I had a history teacher my freshman year—I think it was US [United States] history—that I liked a lot. I didn’t get a very good grade from him, but I thought he was a good teacher. I liked him, and I remember him for some reason; probably because he paid attention to me. And I had an English teacher my freshman year who was a young woman, and I was just fascinated by her. I don’t recall getting a particularly good grade from her, but I just remember being fascinated by her because she was so young. She reminds me of a TV star right now. No, not a TV star, but one of the [actors on] the TV show Frasier—[she] reminds me of his brother’s wife. She was just an interesting, very scholarly woman. Very young, and I just thought she was interesting, so I liked her. But I don’t remember having a favorite class, having a favorite subject; I just remember struggling in every subject that I took [unclear].
HT: What made you decide to major in sociology?
FS: I believe when I came here I was going to major in English, and I just liked sociology. I had never heard about sociology, and I took a class in it—the class with the woman I was talking about—and that’s what made me want to major in it. I just found it a very fascinating subject. And it sort of pulled together other subjects for me, and it gave me a sense of life, a better understanding of why things are, the way they are.
HT: I’m going to mention a few sort of prominent professors on campus during that time: Randall Jarrell, were you familiar with him? 14
FS: He was an English teacher—
HT: Right.
FS: —and I think—I know that he was my roommate’s English teacher, and they had a very close relationship, and that’s why I remember him. But I didn’t have him as a teacher.
HT: He was a very famous poet as well as English teacher. How about history professor Richard Bardolph? I think he was head of the department at that time.
FS: I remember him, but I didn’t have anything under him.
HT: I think this English teacher was there: Amy Charles. Do you—?
FS: I remember Amy Charles. And if she was the young woman, that’s the woman that I’m talking about.
HT: She might have—I know she was very prominent in the seventies, so she—I cannot remember when she came here, but I happened to think of her off the top of my head.
FS: I didn’t have, you know, relationships with my teachers. I did when I was in grad school in Chapel Hill, but not here. By then I had become of age, and I knew what was going on, and I was a lot wiser about the world, so I knew how to develop relationships with my professors at that point. And I’ve tried to help others try to understand. How do you develop a relationship with your professor? This is how you do it, and this is why you do it, but then I couldn’t do it.
HT: I think we already covered some of this about the 1960s. Do you recall what the political atmosphere was like on campus in the early 1960s when you were here? The sixties were just beginning, you know.
FS: I don’t think that this campus was as politically involved as it could have been. You know, there wasn’t a lot of—there weren’t any campus demonstrations or anything like that. I don’t think—I remember leaving campus and walking downtown, but I don’t recall that there was a lot of activity on campus related to the times.
HT: And some people attribute that because it was historically a woman’s college; no men on campus and that might have made a difference.
FS: Yes, you know, we were in a—It was in a counter-culture time, but I think this was a fairly conservative campus, I think it was.
HT: And so you were never involved in any political protests—
FS: No.
15
HT: During your time here.
FS: No.
HT: Now President John F. Kennedy was assassinated when you were a senior. What do you recall about that?
FS: I remember where I was when I heard it, and I was walking from Elliott Hall, which is now the student union building. I was walking, I think maybe, from Elliott Hall to the library, now that I’m thinking, but I remember it was outside. And somehow, I don’t know how I heard it outside, but I was outside walking when I heard it, and it was just earth-shattering, just it blew me away, completely blew me away.
HT: Now of course there were not many TVs around and that sort of thing, but were you able to watch any of the post-assassination news. It was on for several days, as I [unclear, both talking].
FS: I’m sure I did; I’m sure I did. It was a dramatic time and I’m sure I followed it at that time. I was very aware of it and very involved in it emotionally.
HT: I think I mentioned this earlier that there was a boycott on Tate Street in 1963, to help integrate The Corner and to try to integrate the Cinema theater and things like that. Were you aware this was going on?
FS: I was [definitely] aware of it. I’m trying to think of any—I don’t think I had any involvement in it particularly though.
HT: Well, what do you recall about the chancellors while you were here? There was Chancellor William W. Pierson, and Otis Singletary.
FS: I recall the name Otis Singletary and beyond that, that was it. I didn’t know them. I didn’t have any sense of them at all. They made no difference to me in my life at all. [laughter]
HT: And what about Dean of the College Mereb Mossman? Do you have any recollections—?
FS: I recollect her name, but that was it.
HT: And Dean of Women Katharine Taylor.
FS: Now who was that?
HT: Her name was Katharine Taylor. She was dean of women.
FS: I don’t even remember that. I don’t remember her.
16
HT: Well, you know, in talking to a lot of students about this, most students didn’t have any kind of interaction with these various administrators, and that sort of thing, unless you got into trouble or something. I know the woman who participated in the [Greensboro] Sit-ins had some interaction with the chancellor, perhaps the dean of women, and that sort of thing, but unless you did something—
FS: Unless you were involved in something [unclear, both talking].
HT: Involved in something—And that’s the case for most of these [unclear] Well, tell me something about—You were mentioning this a bit earlier about the professors who made an impression on you while you were here. You mentioned something in passing an English teacher, things like that.
FS: I didn’t have, you know—Had I had a relationship with the professors, it would have made some difference, I think, more in my life, but I didn’t have a relationship with them, and I was—The only relationship I had was trying to get through the class, and I don’t recall even interacting with many of my professors personally, except maybe the history professor. I had maybe some one on one interaction with him, and that kind of thing makes a major difference in a student’s life, but I didn’t have that with my other professors.
HT: Do you know why that happened? Did they not reach out or did you not know how to reach or—?
FS: I didn’t know how to reach out to them. Because I’ve had good relationships since then with professors, I know how—what kind of relationship I could have had with the professors here, had I interacted with them differently, but I didn’t and I didn’t know how to.
HT: Right, and I think that goes back to there was no mentoring program set up for the black students who were coming in, when they really needed some mentoring because this was such a—
FS: Different world.
HT: Different world, right, especially in those early years. I’ve talked to alumni who were here then, say prior to ’65 and the ones who were in the late sixties and it seemed to make quite a bit of difference, just those few years—
FS: Yes.
HT: —especially after the Neo-Black Society was formed. That really helped a lot of students get acclimated to the campus, and they were able to support one another, and it made all the difference in the world.
17
FS: Exactly, and after I graduated from UNCG, I had a much better sense of how I could have matriculated, or how one matriculates on a college campus, and at a university. And when I was in Chapel Hill, I had a psychology professor, and I knew exactly how to handle the class. It was an advanced course in psychology. I probably had never had psychology, maybe once. I don’t even remember, but I knew how to do it. So there’s a way you do things. And I didn’t know how to study when I was on campus here. It was more a traumatic experience than a positive experience. I didn’t like it here, and I didn’t come back here to this campus for a long time. In fact, I don’t recall when I—I don’t think I came here when my brother was here because I wasn’t away. I was in Greensboro; I was working in Greensboro but I never came back to the campus after I left. I never came back until I was working in Upward Bound a couple of years ago. Then I was back on campus, and I was able to walk around the campus to see all the changes that had been made, but prior to that—It wasn’t that I didn’t want to come back. I just had no interest at all in coming back, because it wasn’t a wonderful experience. It wasn’t like the college life that one, I think, should have.
HT: Now what about your roommates? Were they not able to help you feel more comfortable?
FS: Well, my roommate Diane and I were very close, and so that was my refuge. It was having a nice roommate, and I enjoyed her as a roommate, and so we, you know, we did things together on the campus. The black students would be together, and we were not with the white students, and it was okay. But you know it was nice being among ourselves, but we were aware that if we would go to the dining room, you know, we would sit together, and we would never interact or sit with anybody else because we had no other friends, and that was just the way it was. And I think I was conscious of that. Now, when I look back on it, I don’t think it was particularly bad, you know. It was just the way things were. These were the people you knew. Those were the people—those black students were the ones I was comfortable [with], so why would I venture out. You would make friends in a classroom, you know, where you had some kind of common connection, like in a class or in a course, and you studied together or something like that. I don’t recall ever studying with the white kids that I was in class with. There were no study groups. I don’t recall a study group. In fact, I don’t recall a study group until I got to grad school, and I remember having one or two study groups in this particular psychology class that I was in, but other than that, nobody initiated study groups.
HT: Were you generally the only African American student in each class that you took?
FS: Yes.
HT: I’ve had other alum mention that and how difficult that was, especially in the early years when the number of African American students was so small, and some people might have majored in music. You majored in sociology, and everybody was going in different directions so very, very seldom did they have classes together.
FS: I’m sure I was the only student in most of the classes. Otherwise, I could have studied with the other student. 18
HT: Right, and I guess that sort of reinforced that sense of isolation.
FS: Isolation, right.
HT: Well, after you graduated in 1964, what did you do next?
FS: I probably did something for the summer; then I—When I changed my major to sociology, I was a sociology major until maybe my senior year, and then I thought, Well, what am I going to do with this? So I took some education classes, and so I was going to be teaching social studies. I think that was what I had figured I would do when I graduated, so I did my student teaching with a friend, person, that I actually knew, and I did my student teaching at the local middle school, and she had a relative who was the principal’s office assistant, or the administrative assistant at Dudley High School, and so when I graduated, she contacted her friend and—It actually was her sister-in-law, and I got a job teaching at Dudley. So I started teaching at Dudley in ’64, and I was teaching English. I didn’t major in English and so I said to the principal—that was in the days when the principal [could hire you]. Of course he knew me, because I was an outstanding high school student—and so I said, “Well, Dr. Tarpley, I didn’t major in English,” and this was an English position that was open, and he said, “Well, you took English, didn’t you?” And so that’s how I got a job teaching English at the local high school that I graduated from.
HT: Just a couple of years before, or a few years prior to that, I mean, you were not—That must have been scary. How did you manage that?
FS: Well, I was young, and gorgeous, according to most of the kids on campus, [laughter] and resented by the faculty there, especially the female faculty, and I lasted there as a teacher for three years. And my brother said, “Well, you know,” he said, “You need to get out of Greensboro.” Because it was difficult being a teacher—being the youngest teacher there. That was pretty difficult. But I managed, and I went back and got my teacher’s certificate because I had to do that within a certain period of time. So I became certified while I was still in Greensboro. When I went to Chicago to get a summer job, I ended up getting a regular job there. I stayed there for about twenty-seven years, and then came back to Greensboro. When I came back, I went back to the local high school.
HT: So what did you teach in Chicago?
FS: I didn’t—I wasn’t a teacher. I was in government. So I started out in state government as an employment counselor, and then I did that for about three or four years. Then I went [back] to school. I got married and went to school with my husband at Indiana University. And I got my master’s there while he was getting his law degree, and then we went back to Chicago, and I got a job in city government, City of Chicago. And that was—And, you know, I think one of your questions might have been, “Did graduating from UNCG make a difference in my life,” you know, in terms of my employment, and my future, and all that stuff. I’ve wondered about that. I didn’t think so until I thought about it, and it could have been that I got the positions that I got fairly quickly because I 19
graduated from The University of North Carolina in Greensboro, and I had never thought about that before.
HT: Yes, because it had a wonderful reputation.
FS: Right.
HT: So I’ve talked to several alums who said it really helped them get the first or second job, because of that wonderful reputation that it did have.
FS: I’m sure that’s how I got my first job teaching. I was an outstanding student, yes, but the fact that I graduated from the white university made a major difference.
HT: Let me ask you something about your first teaching job. Had you had done your practice teaching on campus at Curry or somewhere else here in Greensboro?
FS: I did it—No, I did it at Lincoln Middle School, and I had gone to Lincoln Middle School, so I was back on familiar territory, familiar turf. That was the teacher who knew the principal’s secretary. In fact, the principal’s secretary was her sister-in-law, and so she was the one who sort of helped me get that teaching job, because she thought I was so wonderful. [laughs]
HT: Now what made you decide to get out of teaching and go into government after you went to Chicago?
FS: I didn’t decide to get out of teaching and go into government. I went to Chicago to get a summer job because I was off in the summer, and I had every intention of coming back to Greensboro to continue at Dudley High School, but instead of getting a summer job, I ended up getting a fulltime job, and when I got the fulltime job, it was like July, and I didn’t want to keep it for a month and leave, so I simply stayed on that job, and then I called back here and resigned as a teacher. And they said when I left, that I wouldn’t be back. I said, “Of course I’ll be back.” But they were right, but it wasn’t Chicago that lured me; it was just the fact that I got a fulltime job there as an employment counselor for youth. I think the fact that I had been a teacher. I was employed to help in a special employability program for kids and high school kids. That was my job. My state title was employment counselor, but what I actually did was work with some youth in an employability program. [The program included] travel, so I was able to travel to Greensboro with my little group. It was kind of a plum little assignment, and I was probably resented more there for that plum assignment than I was here as the youngest teacher, but that started my career in Chicago in government, and from that point on—The guy that hired me in that position, hired me again because he was now—He was working for the state at that time. When I came back to Chicago from graduate school, he was working for the City of Chicago, so he hired me again in the city, to work for the city. And so at that point, I was an employment counselor. It wasn’t called employment counselor; it was called manpower development counselor.
20
HT: You say you got your master’s in sociology?
FS: No, I got my master’s in education, and [unclear, both talking].
HT: Oh, education. And that’s from Indiana University. And where is that?
FS: Bloomington.
HT: Okay.
FS: I got my master’s in urban education. That’s what it was called: urban education. And I thought that was pretty exciting. That was a pretty exciting time in terms of education for me. I enjoyed that. That’s when I really, really enjoyed higher education is when I did that.
HT: And you say you stayed in Chicago for twenty-seven years.
FS: About twenty-seven years. I came back [here] in 1996.
HT: And you’re—I think you said you were working at Dudley again.
FS: I came back and got a job at—What lured me back was another position here in Greensboro, but [while I was in Greensboro interviewing for that job], I went by the local high school and talked to the principal, and he said, he thought he had a job for me, and at the time, I tried to talk him out of that job as well, and said, I think I came here for another job, and then when I left his office, I thought, “Did I just turn down a job teaching again?” I said, “I think I did,” so I called him on the phone, and said, “Did I just turn down a job teaching with you?” and he said, “Yes.” I said, “Well, let me undo that because I think I would like to consider it.” But [when] he actually called me, he [offered] me another position that someone had just resigned, and it was called Communities and Schools. So I became the site coordinator for this project called Communities and Schools, and that has been a very interesting experience. So I’ve [been the CIS Site Coordinator at Dudley High School] for the [past] fifteen years.
HT: Wow, and you’re still working?
FS: Yes, I still do that.
HT: No retirement plans?
FS: No, I do have some thoughts about retiring, but no plans at this point. I know I’ll be retiring in the next two or three years so—
HT: Well, I think you’ve already mentioned that you really have not been involved with the college very much since you left in 1964.
21
FS: No, I haven’t.
HT: Well, what do you want people to know about your time on this campus in the early ’60s? What impact did it have on your life?
FS: Well, it—I was glad that I came to UNCG because it introduced me to the world as it was. I had lived in the country, in the rural part of Greensboro, and I really hadn’t been out a lot in the community, and it introduced me to the sixties. It introduced me to the counter culture movement, and I felt like I was so much more aware of what was going on in the world than, maybe, my classmates that I had graduated with, and I just felt like I had gotten a real education here about life. And I think that it’s an experience that I would never trade for anything in the world, although I wasn’t happy as a college student. It was just a—It was an extremely good experience, and it certainly parlayed me into the person that I am, and I just—I value the experience that I had here at UNCG. It was just extremely valuable for my life, and for my development. And maybe that’s true of other college students; I don’t know. I just thought it was—I was here at a time where, you know, black students were just coming here, and the university was getting accustomed to having black students on campus. Now, of course, it’s so different that I can’t believe it, but there were just a handful of us then.
HT: You were the true pioneers in those early days.
FS: It was—Yes. I can look back and think that I would like to have done things differently, but I didn’t do them differently, and you know, I did—It was a limited experience in the sense that I had to spend most of my time trying to make grades and trying to do the work and trying to keep my head above water, and that’s what I really spent most of my life here doing, just trying to keep my head above water. And so I missed the college experiences, some of the extracurricular things that you mentioned, but the education that I got—I felt like I got an education here that I wouldn’t have gotten anywhere else. And, you know, it was not pleasant most of the time, but it still was an education. It wasn’t—Maybe I shouldn’t say it wasn’t enjoyable.
HT: Well, do you have any positive recollections that you like to remember: college days. I know I’ve told you about the alum who said they liked to play a lot of cards: bid whist and bridge.
FS: I didn’t play any of that. I just—You know, I socialized with the girls, but I didn’t play cards. Sometimes that was limiting because the other girls were playing cards, right? I enjoyed having male friends come over on campus to visit. I enjoyed that. Those are the things I can remember a lot. I remember sitting outside with the friends, so I enjoyed having male friends come on campus, and I remember thinking, “Gee, wouldn’t it be nice if they were just here all the time.” [laughter] But—I don’t think—I think the fact that it was a women’s college. If I had it to do over again, I probably would go to an integrated—a coed school because I enjoyed Chapel Hill so much. It was just like heaven. When I went down there in the summer, it was like heaven versus being here, and I just thought it was so different, but, you know, now that I’m sort of getting back 22
involved with the class—my classmates—things will become a little more nostalgic for me in terms of positive things that happened then, but—
HT: Well, I don’t have any more formal questions for you. Do you have anything else you’d like to add? We’ve covered such a variety of things this afternoon.
FS: Well—[pause]
HT: Thoughts about your time here, and how it changed your life, and that sort of thing.
FS: Well, not a lot; not really a lot to add. I’m glad I did it. I think I would recommend it to anybody. I would certainly recommend UNCG. It so—You know, now it is different, but even then I would have. I think my brother came here because I had come here.
HT: Did you have any influence in that regard?
FS: I don’t think I did in particular, but it did influence him: the fact that I came here, and I’m pretty sure he, you know, paid attention to the school and the fact that it was coed now, and he would want to come here. I don’t think it was necessarily following in my footsteps, but see, my oldest brother had gone to State and so it all kind of followed. I came here; then he came here. I had another brother who went to A&T who was my support system while I was here financially. He had a little job, and he would leave A&T and come over and bring me soap, and stuff that, you know, parents would usually bring, but my parents were trying to keep their heads above—My father paid my tuition. Where I had gotten a scholarship to Bennett, I didn’t get a scholarship here, and he paid my tuition here. It was cheaper even then, you know—so I was obligated to stay here even though I didn’t particularly like it. I felt obligated so that he wouldn’t waste his money, and I was very glad that he wanted—that he supported me through school.
HT: Did all your siblings go to college?
FS: All of the older siblings did. The younger group—the girls—two did not. My oldest baby sister did not, and my next sister went to work for Bell South at the age of eighteen, and probably at about the age of forty-five, she went back to school and got her degree from Greensboro College. And I guess it took her four or five years to do that, but she, you know—Bell South supported her to do that. Then my baby sister did go to college, so there was only one sibling that did not. So everybody else went to college, and finished college, and so forth.
HT: Well, thank you so much for the interview. I really appreciate listening to your stories about Woman’s College days and what you’ve done afterwards. It’s been fascinating. Thank you so much.
FS: You’re welcome.
[End of Interview]