Oral history interview with Kathryn Jordan-Pierce, 2013 [text/print transcript]

              1
THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT GREENSBORO
INSTITUTIONAL MEMORY COLLECTION
INTERVIEWEE: Kathryn Jordan-Pierce
INTERVIEWER: Sarah McNulty Turner
DATE: February 9, 2013
ST: Today is February 9, 2013. I am Sarah Turner, oral history interviewer for the African American Institutional Memory Project. I’m here at the home of:
KJP: Kathryn Jordan-Pierce.
ST: I’d like to start off the interview by talking about where you were born, your birth date, things about your family life.
KJP: Well, I was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and I lived there for thirteen years. And my parents divorced and North Carolina is my mother’s home, so I returned to North Carolina with my mother. So that meant that I went to high school in Durham, North Carolina—Hillside High School—and that was an interesting experience, relocating in your high school year when everyone knows each other and there you are, the new girl. So I made a dear, dear friend, Noma Bennett, Anderson now. She was my best friend in high school and I had really not thought about colleges at all, but Noma had. Since she’d resided in the same place over the years, I guess she had time to think about all this. So I was thinking about going to college at either—I applied to Spellman College [Atlanta, Georgia], Howard University, [Washington, DC], and UNCG [The University of North Carolina at Greensboro]. And I applied to UNCG solely because of Noma. She said that that’s where she wanted to go and I don’t remember the other schools she applied to, but anyway we both went to UNCG. So that’s why I went to UNCG: really to follow my best friend.
ST: Is her name “Nelma,” No—
KJP: Noma, N-O-M-A. And she’s Dr. Anderson now, but anyway. So I followed my best friend to college and so that was at the time—that was ’66, I think—we entered, and I believe she told me stories about Martin Luther King marching. It seems her parents were really civil rights activists and so coming to UNCG for them meant integrating the university. Now remember, I came from Pennsylvania so I’m learning about all this, not that there wasn’t discrimination, et cetera, in Pennsylvania. It just didn’t touch my daily life, I think, the way it did for black people in the South. So I said, “Okay,” so we went and we were roommates. And in Pennsylvania, I guess I should say, I was bussed so I was used—For elementary school, it was all black students and all white teachers; then 2
when I went to middle school, we were bussed to middle school. It was all white teachers and mostly white students and then a few black students so that was a unique experience for me, going from two almost opposite environments, but that gave me the three years in middle school having experience with white students and white teachers, so going to UNCG wasn’t a huge stretch. It was a stretch in terms of the freedom that you had, and how you had to make your own schedule and all that. But for my best friend, Noma, she had gone to segregated schools, so UNCG was quite a difference for her and it was for me, too. Those were the years where civil rights activists—I guess things were heating up, so to speak, so during those years, I remember a lot of—We marched, we organized. There was a lot more—I remember more about those kinds of things and some things about school, but school was just studying and going to class. I do remember when we came back from the Christmas of our freshman year, a lot of the girls—white girls—came back engaged, and that was just like such a big deal. I remember Noma and I looking at each other and thinking: Is this what it’s for? It felt like that was—For them the goal was to meet their future husband. and we never really thought about any of that.
ST: It’s so interesting that that was the way it was, and that was a women’s college—mostly women’s college at that point, that women went to college and hoped to find husbands even though there were no men around.
KJP: Right, exactly. It was like, “Oh.”
ST: Had to go to Chapel Hill to find men.
KJP: And just to reinforce that whole image or impression that we got, they had mixers and what those were—I guess it was in the spring, I remember—they chartered busses for the females to go to UNC-Chapel Hill. And to me it’s a mixer. It was social; it was purely social; it was to meet men and that just blew our minds. It was like, “What, really?” So they imported women to the campus, and so we went—I guess maybe my sophomore year, I don’t think we did it my freshman year—We went because we were just curious to see what this was all about. As I recall, men went—There were no female students at UNC-Chapel Hill until maybe they could apply their junior year, and so any women who were there were juniors or seniors. And so we went on the bus to Chapel Hill to find out what was this all about, what was this mixer-thing? I remember the fraternity row—I think it’s Columbia Avenue or Street—where a lot of the fraternity houses, they were having parties and there were things at the student union—music and just lots of different activities—and there we were; a few black women, trying to figure out “Are there any black men here?” And we did come across some and I think we went to some kind of activity that they had. I don’t know if it was music somewhere, but we did do something, but most of the time we were just walking around, just looking. And I remember us being really happy when it was over because it wasn’t, for us, I guess, what it was designed to be. It wasn’t that for, you know, those two black girls. I don’t know of any others, so we got on the bus and came back home, and we learned what a mixer was. It was amazing to me. The whole concept was just kind of strange.
ST: Strange. 3
KJP: Yes, really strange. So that was a social experience.
ST: Can you tell me about—You said your parents were divorced and your mother came down here. Did you have any siblings?
KJP: Yes, I have a brother.
ST: You have a brother. Is he older or—
KJP: A younger brother.
ST: Okay. And can you tell me what your parents did for a living; what brought—I know you said your mom came down to be a—to come home to her home state.
KJP: Oh yes, she came to be with her family. My father was a social worker so he went to University of Pittsburgh and he had a master’s in social work, and my mom was a housewife and she’d had a couple of years of college at NCCU [North Carolina Central University], but at that time, when she went, it was North Carolina College for Negroes. I believe that was the name of it. So they both had, you know, college in their background, and my mother actually went back to college and finished in her fifties, so that was the background. My grandparents, my father’s parents were in Pittsburgh and my grandmother—They were high school graduates, my grandmother. In those days high school—she was fluent in German—you know high school taught you everything. By high school you knew everything you needed to know in order to make a living or—It’s kind of different now. That was the industrial age, I guess; this is the information age. Things are quite different now. Is that what you meant?
ST: Yes, we just want to know a little about the landscape of your life before you came to UNCG. And you said you went to Hillside.
KJP: I did.
ST: Did you enjoy going to Hillside? What was that like? You said it was hard at first.
KJP: Yes, socially it was a challenge in the beginning, being the new person. So here I was again in a situation where there were all black students and all black teachers. That was like my elementary experience, but it was a good experience. You know, high school’s about social and so since I was new, that meant a lot of guys were interested in meeting me, [laughter] as someone that they hadn’t grown up with. And, as I said, I’m sort of shy so I just made a few good friends and Noma was one of them, but a few other good friends. And it was good, fine; I remember one of my—in English, I guess in those days there were tracks—there was the college track and the vocational track—so I was in the college track and I remember one of my English teachers in advanced English. They were diagramming sentences, and I didn’t know how to diagram sentences. That’s not what I had been taught, and I didn’t see the usefulness of it, to be honest with you. But she was all about diagramming sentences, and she made a remark about how maybe they don’t 4
teach that to you up North, but here in the South that’s something really important. So I thought, “Oh, okay, it’s going to be like that.”
ST: I hate diagramming sentences and I’m from the South.
KJP: What is the point of this? How am I going to use this? Another thing that happened in high school was that we had our first white teacher; and I can’t remember her name. I was thinking about her a few weeks ago; I don’t know why, but anyway she was young—I remember that—so maybe she was in, I would say she was in her twenties, maybe just right out of college. And I just remember her being a lot fun and it must have been really difficult for her because when I think about the teachers that we had, they all seemed so mature. Now they probably weren’t old, but they just seemed very mature and settled, and here’s a young white girl, young lady, having to interact with them. I imagine that must have been—I’d like to hear her memories. Gordon, Mrs. Gordon was her name—Miss Gordon, and—
ST: See, you can remember things.
KJP: I know, but I guess the significant thing about Miss Gordon was she had us do something that had never been done before. And she was the advisor to the National Honor Society, which I was a member of, and I think there was a state conference every year for the National Honor Society, and she had us go to the state conference, and I don’t know how many black high schools had gone before. As I remember—I don’t remember any other black students there but us, so that was something really unique, a unique experience. So she—And I don’t remember where she was from, if she was from the North or the South—but she just had ideas about things that we should be doing, and I remember that experience. And I remember the exchange between, you know—I guess they broke us up into groups and we were mixed in with everybody. We didn’t all stay together, but I just remember the conversations between the white students and the black students and how—I guess the white students not having had the experience of really interacting with smart, black students—that sometimes the tone was a bit dismissive, and that we really had to make our points and hold our own, so to speak. But that was a unique experience. I think I also remember Miss Gordon telling us that—I think you could get—You could join clubs in those days and get records and they would send you—Like if you would join, you’d get three for ten dollars or something like that, and you had to sign and become a member of the club, this record club. And I remember her telling us that we wouldn’t have to pay, really, because we weren’t eighteen and people under eighteen couldn’t really—They couldn’t hold you to a contract, or something strange like that. I don’t know. She was just a unique person. She was like, “You should pay, but if it gets to the point that you can’t, and, you know, I guess they want to come after you, you are under eighteen so really you shouldn’t”—Anyway. So that was high school and it was a good experience.
ST: What did you like to study in high school?
5
KJP: I love to read; I’m a reader, but my favorite subjects in high school were science. I liked biology. I didn’t like chemistry that much. And English was alright; you know, you’re reading all the classics. That was fine, but I remember biology being—I liked my algebra teacher so I liked algebra; didn’t like geometry.
ST: Did you feel prepared when you went to UNCG.
KJP: No. That was—as a freshman it was quite a shock, so all of that diagramming sentences didn’t help a bit. [laughter] Yes, that was quite a shock. So in terms of English and writing, I wasn’t prepared for what was required of us, so the first semester was really—And, you know, I’m used to reading, but reading for what? Every professor has their thing, you know. It was lots and lots of reading for history, and so I really felt my freshman year was a lot of learning how to learn for college; and self-taught, which is huge. But I did and it got better, but I think when I—I think our year—I may have these numbers wrong, but I think when I started, there were fifty-four black females in my class—and I know you all can check the numbers—but when we finished, there were seventeen of us so over the years for various reasons, we got weeded out. I know academics was a part of it, and it would be interesting how many survived the freshman year. If you could get through the freshman year—And I know that’s probably true for a lot of students: if you can get through the freshman year, then you’re probably alright. But I think high schools are probably doing a better job of preparing students for college now with the advanced placement classes, et cetera, than they did then.
ST: Was Hillside a good high school?
KJP: Pardon me.
ST: Was Hillside a good high school?
KJP: It was the only choice for me; it was the black high school. And then Durham High School was the white high school, and I think in ’65, Durham High School integrated. Some of the students that I went to high school with, some transferred to Durham High School and graduated from there.
ST: Because a lot of ladies have talked about their high schools in rural areas were—I mean that was the only option, but they were bad; they were underfunded. They had never seen a microscope; they had never had school supplies, things like that. Durham was in a bigger city so if it was a more prepared—
KJP: Well, we used books that had been used before. I remember going to the chemistry lab and there was no equipment. There was a lab there but there was no equipment. I remember the elements table—hydrogen, helium, lithium, bohrium, boron, carbon—We had to remember all of that, so I don’t know what we did in there. There wasn’t—As they said, there wasn’t the equipment, the things that one would really need to prepare us for that. Biology: I just remember reading; I don’t know that we did a lot of hands-on 6
activities, but biology just fascinated me so. They did the best they could with what they had, so it was similar in that way. It was separate and unequal.
ST: Can you tell me about your first days on campus, when you first moved in?
KJP: I lived in Shaw [Residence] Hall, which I think is the international house or it was at one point. I think we were the first black students in Shaw; I’m not sure. Anyway Shaw is a small dorm compared to some of the other dorms, so let’s see, there were four of—four black students, three from Durham—so there was Noma and I in a room and Ada Fisher [Class of 1970]—
ST: Oh, she’s been interviewed.
KJP: Yes, Ada is very active: Ada Marquita Fisher. And she had a roommate whose name was Mary and I can’t think of Mary’s last name. Did Mary last the whole year? I think Mary left maybe at the end of the freshman year. I don’t think she came back sophomore year. So we were both on the same hallway—same floor, I mean. Let’s see, I just remember us being in the dorm. When I went to that program—that reunion I talked about—the black graduates before us told us stories that I had heard about in terms of them being the only ones on a floor and thinking really how ridiculous all that was, but of course—
ST: So you were on an integrated floor.
KJP: I was on an integrated floor, yes.
ST: And you had hall bathrooms and everything?
KJP: Yes, we used the same bathrooms, et cetera. And that wasn’t that many—Well, they finished in ’62 I guess, the first graduates, right? [Editor’s note: the first African American students graduated in 1960 from Woman’s College, now UNCG] And we came in ’66, so that’s four years, but I guess things changed quickly after that. I just remember—I don’t remember anything in particular about it; it’s just that we were all on the same floor. I don’t remember whether we spoke or not. It was just living, that’s all. Freshman year, as I said, it was really trying to figure out how to learn the college way and how to—Because my grades the first semester were awful, and I was used to getting great grades. I was like, “Well, if I want to stay here, I have to do something.” I think I remember doing that.
I’m not quite sure when the activism started with us. There were other black students who were older than we were who were also from Durham so they were kind of like our big sisters. And Janyce Brewer [Marshall, Class of 1968] was one, I think she lives in Washington, DC now. Elise Davis [McFarland, Class of 1968]—now these are their maiden names. She wasn’t from Durham but I think she and Janyce were roommates. There were a number of—There were about—Sybil Shepherd was from Durham, so there were about six as I recall, so they were kind of like our big sisters. And [clears throat] Excuse me. So they were more—I guess they kind of introduced us to some of the activism that was going on. I don’t remember what year these things 7
happened, but I believe there was a Black Power Conference on campus. [Editor’s note: the Black Power Conference was held in November 1967] I know—I remember us organizing a march downtown in Greensboro. For what I was marching, I don’t remember, but I remember it being very scary. Police were out and you just never know which way things are going to go. I think my junior year—I think it was my junior year or my senior year—the cafeteria workers were on strike on campus and so I think there was no headway being made in terms of negotiations for them. And I remember telling my mom that I was not going to come home Spring Break; that we were going to stay in Greensboro and continue to march and protest in their support because Spring Break would be a perfect time to just break off negotiations. So I stayed in Greensboro; a whole group of us stayed in Greensboro. At that point, there were some black students who had apartments off-campus so we stayed with them, and I think the—I don’t know what the cafeteria workers got but I think they got some of the things that they were requesting or protesting for. So I remember giving up Spring Break in order to be a support.
ST: What did your mother think of you being politically active?
KJP: She was in support of it, because I found out that she used to do that for CORE, Congress of Racial Equality, before I was born, or may be when I—I don’t know. But, and having grown up in the South, I knew she really understood. But she didn’t have to say “Yes” even if she, you know, intellectually understood, but she was supportive of it. So those are just some of the memories. Now, as far as UNCG, I remember things happening like there was a math class I had and I remember we took a test and I must have been the only black student in there. And I was absent the day the tests were given back, and then I came the next time, and I remember the professor bringing the paper straight to me and it had a big red “N” on it. That’s not my name. There’s no “N”—and I looked at it, and it was just a big shock to me. I remember that experience. I really didn’t like UNCG, especially after sophomore year because Noma said she could not take it anymore and she transferred. She left.
ST: I was going to ask; I didn’t recognize her name.
KJP: Yes, she went on to Hampton. And so I’m like, “I came here because of you and now you’re leaving, and my parents were like, “You’re staying. You’re not going anywhere.” I also remember I wrote a paper for English and the professor called me to his office and he said—He accused me of plagiarizing, and I told him that I didn’t plagiarize and I—We had our back and forth discussion, so I guess there’s some kind of penalty, other than just that it’s illegal, but some kind of campus penalty, too. So he said, “Well, you know, I’ll think about it, and I’ll get back to you.” Well, that was just before we went to our Winter Break, and so my whole Winter Break I worried that when I got back, he was going to say, “Yes, you did” and then whatever happens to you when you do that, would happen. So [pause, unfamiliar noises, then cough]
So when I got back [clears throat] from the Winter Break, I went to his office, and he said, “You know, you’re right. You didn’t.” He was very, you know, like it was no big deal. It had been a huge deal for me. I really agonized over that all during the Winter Break. Anyway, so I remember those two instances, so I felt, you know—And I really do 8
feel that teachers were prejudiced; I do remember feeling that. There is nothing I could do about it; that’s what I felt. There’s no recourse and you just did the best you could and that’s just the way it was. I remember—My major was psychology and I do remember having some psychology professors that I really liked, and they seemed to like me, which was a change.
ST: Do you remember their names?
KJP: I don’t remember their names. I had one class, and in those days it was the Skinner [B.F. Skinner, American psychologist] days where the reinforcement, the positive reinforcement—And so we had mice and we had to put them on reinforcement schedules so that we could see the different reinforcement schedules. So whoever the professor was for that course, I liked him. You can really tell when a professor is just doing what they need to do. There are some that are just like that with all the students, and you’re just a student. There are those who you really know really don’t like you because you’re black, and really don’t think you should be there, and they do the least they can do. If you go for help, there’s not much help. I remember going to some professors and it was really like, “I don’t know how—I can’t just read it and do it.” And then there were those in my major, that I knew liked me. And one actually—Well, you can’t do much with a bachelor’s in psychology. You really have to go for at least a master’s, but I remember he—one of my psychology professors—actually talked to some of his colleagues to see about me getting a job at one of the universities, Northern university, as like a research assistant or something. I mean, he went that far. That was huge as far as I was concerned. It didn’t work out but even for him to do that was a lot. UNCG—I left there just happy to get away. I finished for my parents and for me, but for them. I had lots of family come to my graduation, but years later when I would go back to Greensboro, I’d just have a headache as soon as I entered the city. It was just not a place of good memories, generally speaking.
ST: You lived in Shaw your freshman year.
KJP: Yes.
ST: Do you know where else you lived the other three years?
KJP: [pause] No, I don’t remember the name of it, but it was the first new dorm built that was at the end of that long street from the main street. There is that long street that goes all the way through, then there’s—it’s not new anymore but there—a high rise. I don’t remember the name of it, but I was there for my senior, junior—Was I there my sophomore year? I might have been there my sophomore year, too. Do you know what the name of that dorm is?
ST: I don’t. I didn’t live in any UNCG dorms when I was in graduate school so I’m horrible at that. If you asked me about Carolina dorms, I would know about that. And you lived with Noma freshman and sophomore years. Who did you live with after she transferred?
9
KJP: My junior year, I didn’t have a roommate so they assigned a roommate to me. It was a white girl, and I remember she didn’t last very long. I remember she wasn’t really friendly. She was in shock that she had a black roommate. But I just remember her coming in late every night hiccupping, so she had been out drinking. I don’t even remember her name, but I do remember coming to the dorm one afternoon and all her stuff was gone, so that’s how friendly we were to each other. She left and so I asked some of the girls on the hall and they said she went back home. She didn’t even just go to another dorm, she just left the university.
ST: College wasn’t for her.
KJP: No. I just remember the hiccupping. “Gosh, she must be drinking.” So one of the things I thought was really a nice tradition at Woman’s College, that we lost when it became co-ed, was the Daisy Chain. As juniors, we got up really in the morning and got on a truck, I think, and went out to the field. Imagine a field with all these daisies. This is, not all the students, but anyone who wanted to participate, so this is black and white students, picking daisies and weaving them in the rope and holding the daisy chain for the graduating seniors. I thought that was such a nice tradition.
ST: It’s so ’60s. It just seems so like—I know it probably predated the ’60s but when I close my eyes and think about it, it’s just so quintessentially a 1960s kind of thing.
KJP: And I guess—You know, I cannot find my ring, but I guess it’s the same. It was actually a stamp. It was originally created as a stamp, a seal so that you could dip it in ink and put it on a letter, and it had the UNCG seal on it. Over the years, I don’t know what I did with mine, so I don’t know if it’s the same or if it’s changed.
ST: Who did you live with your senior year?
KJP: Who was my senior year? So the rest of my junior year, I had the room to myself. It was great. My senior year was a friend, Marie Darr [Class of 1970]. Have you interviewed her, because I think she lives in Greensboro?
ST: I feel like I have. I think so.
KJP: I don’t know her name beyond Marie Darr.
ST: I don’t want to confuse who I’ve interviewed.
KJP: Because I think her roommate left—I can’t remember her name.
ST: I think her last name is Scott, Marie Darr Scott. Yes, she has been interviewed. I remember her.
KJP: So that was my roommate senior year.
10
ST: Okay. Had you known her previously or just—
KJP: I met her once I got to campus so we were friends through the whole—Well, it was three years of the four years at UNCG. I probably met her my freshman year, actually, but she already had a roommate. The only way you get another roommate, a black roommate, is if one of the roommates leaves and then you—So we were roommates senior year.
ST: Do you remember what you did for fun during college?
KJP: What did we do for fun? We didn’t go to games. We would go downtown shopping. I remember doing that. I don’t really remember what we did for fun, just hanging out with each other. We didn’t have any money. [laughter] When we went downtown, it was like someone’s mom sent them their allowance. Some people got allowances. I worked sometimes, the work study program, so I remember working in the library. I guess I shelved books or something for one span of time, and then I was a reader for the sociology professor. Dr. [Joseph S.] Himes was the sociology professor. He was blind.
ST: Oh, I was wondering what a reader, what that meant.
KJP: Yes, so I read for him. Interestingly enough, Dr. Himes’s brother, Chester Himes, was a novelist and some of his books became movies: Cotton Comes to Harlem. Those were back in the seventies. Anyway they were brothers and the reason he was blind was because of, as I’ve read it, an experiment that he and the writer-brother had designed, but the writer-brother had done something and was being punished, so he couldn’t help and so Dr. Himes, the Sociologist, did it on his own. And it blew up and that’s how he was blinded. I didn’t know that at the time when I was reading. I did know who his brother was and later when I graduated and went to work in New York City—I worked at Countee Cullen Library, which is part of the Schomburg Center [an archival repository for information on people of African descent worldwide)—I met the writer-brother Chester Himes and told him that I had been a reader for his sociology professor-brother.
I guess basically for fun we just hung out with each other. Sometimes we would go over to A&T’s [North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University, Greensboro, North Carolina] campus and I had a cousin who was going to college at A&T so I would go over and visit her. Of course, the experiences—Once the A&T women found out that you went to UNCG or Woman’s College [of the University of North Carolina] or Bennett [College, Greensboro, North Carolina ], you’re competition. But anyway, I would go over there. [hiccup] Excuse me.
ST: Did your work study provide you with tuition? Or was it money? How did that work?
KJP: It seems like it went toward my tuition. Yes, I think it went toward my tuition. So, this is interesting, I don’t remember. When I think of UNCG, I don’t think of fun. I think of—I know we must have had some good times, but that’s not—You know, I said I’m a person of big impressions that are left.
11
ST: That’s a common theme people talk about. For one, there was no time to have fun because they were so busy trying to stay—keep their head above water, just academically. And then there just weren’t the opportunities to have social lives like you would think college would.
KJP: There were dances. I remember going to dances, you know. I would import a friend—a male friend—from home to go with me. So there were—
ST: Where did you guys have dances, do you remember?
KJP: What?
ST: Where would you have them?
KJP: We wouldn’t; it would be like the university.
ST: Right, but do you know where they would be held?
KJP: I guess they were in somewhere where there is a ballroom.
ST: Okay, Elliott Hall?
KJP: It seems like there’s Cone Ballroom or something like that.
ST: Yes, and Elliott Hall, Elliott University Center.
KJP: So we would—In the beginning we wouldn’t not participate because this is part of college, and we wanted to see what college was. Then, I guess, when things were more oriented towards black activism and things like that, it was not a fun time. It was a serious time. I remember being in the dorm; we were studying and actually it was a group of black students together studying for tests, and a white girl came to the door and she said Martin Luther King [Jr.] has been killed. And we were just in shock and disbelief, so we stopped what we were doing to find out more about it and, of course, things were in turmoil in Greensboro as I recall. There were riots and I think I remember people saying that there were army tanks on A&T’s campus. It was just crazy; it was really crazy. So those were the things that were going on while I was in school, so it was a more serious time, for black students especially, in terms of just deciding whether you want to be part of the—I remember this was one of the posters I had up in my room: Are you part of the problem or are you part of the solution? And I wanted to be part of the solution. I remember going out and registering people to vote, things like that. So those are the things I did in my free time rather than the social kinds of things that people usually associate with college.
ST: I was going to ask if you remember the death of Martin Luther King, Jr. so it’s interesting that you would bring that up. A&T did have army; I’ve read all about the disturbances 12
they had—the National Guard being called in and things like that. Do you remember any black men ever being on campus or being part of campus?
KJP: Yes, I remember when they came. That’s why I think it was my junior year that I remember their presence. If maybe one or two came before that, I’m wondering if they were day students and not campus students. But, yes, I remember a number of them were on the basketball team. And they were fun. They were younger than we were so nobody was really interested. I was reading something today where there’s, you know, the cougar phenomenon. Now there’s another name for younger women who go after even younger men: “Pumas” was the term they used. Anyway they were like brothers, so to speak, but I do remember when they came on campus and lived on campus and they were fun. We would eat together, you know, go to the cafeteria and so I do remember that. I don’t remember their names though. That was the other thing I remember when it was Woman’s College. I’m thinking back to the shift. I remember on Sundays, you had to look decent when you went to eat and that meant—I guess those weren’t—You know people wear jeans for everything now. You had to really—I don’t think you necessarily wore a dress, but I do remember that you had to dress differently on Sundays when you went to meals, so that whole ladies thing was definitely enforced then. Then we can go back to now.
ST: Do you remember anything—You mentioned that you would eat with the men that were on campus; do you remember anything about the dining halls at all?
KJP: All the workers were black.
ST: Were they like students, like A&T students, or were they adults?
KJP: You know I tend to think some may have been A&T students. I do remember one time some of my friends and I really wanted to go to IHOP [International House of Pancakes] for breakfast or for one of the meals, and one of us knew one of the guys who worked in the cafeteria. And I’m thinking he was an A&T student and he lent us his car so that we could go to IHOP and get our breakfast or whatever—you know you can have IHOP all day—and get our IHOP meal. So I think there were some A&T students who worked in the cafeteria. That was a happy day.
ST: Did white and black students intermix in the dining halls or did people kind of keep to themselves?
KJP: No, generally no. I think that’s even happening these days in high schools because books have been written about why all the black students—I think that’s the title, Why Do all the Black Students Sit Together in the Cafeteria? No, there was no mixing. And there was this one girl that we knew was passing. She looked white, but someone who was from her hometown knew she was black. She was from Ahoskie, [North Carolina] so, from what I’m told, there are a lot of very fair black people in Ahoskie, and it might be the native Americans. But I remember this girl; she was sitting with her white roommate I guess, just with a group of white students, and not the hometown girl, but another girl—And 13
remember these are the days of activism, you know, be proud: “I’m black and I’m proud.” She went over to the table to speak to her. In other words, she went over to “out” her, which was—It had to have been traumatic. I thought to myself, that was just so wrong. Just let her be if that’s what she wants. I wouldn’t agree with it, but she purposely went over to talk to her and make it sound like they knew each other. Anyway she made it uncomfortable for her and I don’t know whatever happened with the girl, but I just remember thinking that was unfortunate. So there were probably other black students who were passing. Everybody has to make their decision about how they’re going to live their life. I told you [that] for me, it was trying to be part of the solution and not the problem. So yes, generally all black students ate together; all the white students ate together.
ST: Can you tell me about—were you involved in any clubs or extracurricular activities at UNCG?
KJP: I was one of the charter members of the Neo-Black Society, the black student organization on campus, and I think I was the treasurer. I don’t even remember, but I do remember helping to start that. I think Ada Fisher was one of the charter members also. And when I was at the affair in the spring, I think one of the black students told me there’s a plaque of something that lists the charter members. And I thought: Oh, I’d like to see that, but I didn’t see it before I left.
ST: I think they’re even planning—In a year or two, there’s an anniversary coming up for the Neo-Black Society that they’re going to try to do some kind of reunion to bring people back to that.
KJP: They’d better do it fast [laughter] because we’re getting older here. So that was, again, trying to work to be part of the solution. Ada was really active. I think Ada and the Chancellor, [James S.] Ferguson, I think was his name. She spoke to him frequently about any of the issues that came up. So I do remember that, but that was probably the only club that I was a part of.
ST : Yes, I know that Hermann [Trojanowski] interviewed Betty Cheek who was also one of the founding members; she and her sister—I can’t remember her sister’s name.
KJP: Yes, they were ahead of us.
ST : Oh, Yvonne, Yvonne Cheek. They graduated two years ahead of you. So I think that you were probably involved with it earlier in college and they were involved in it later. And you said there were political protests that you participated in. Were those formally organized by the Neo-Black Society, or was this something that was kind of a grassroots—just the students getting together?
KJP: No, we didn’t organize—Well, the one for the cafeteria workers organized [the workers] at UNCG, but the marches, as I recall, were organized by groups outside of the university. But colleges and universities decided whether they wanted to be a part of the 14
presence and so some of us decided to be a part of the march. I know there were A&T students involved in it, and I never knew what went on with Bennett. That was just—They were really remote; I didn’t know anyone at Bennett.
ST: I think they were very sheltered and protected from what I hear about it.
KJP: I guess. That’s what it seemed.
ST: The Bennett Belles weren’t to be active.
KJP: But I know A&T was definitely a part of it, and there may have been, just like with us, there may have been people from each of the colleges. I just didn’t know where. There were a lot of people out there that day.
ST: Were these always protests that ended just being broken up, or were people arrested? Did you ever know anyone who was ever arrested?
KJP: No one was ever arrested. No. I know Marie Darr was involved in one where I think people were killed.
ST: Oh, wow.
KJP: But that was after UNCG, I believe. It happened in Greensboro actually; the Greensboro Eight or something. I think it involved the KKK [Ku Klux Klan].
ST: There was what’s called the Greensboro Massacre and it was between the Communist Workers Party and the KKK. They had a shootout. The news was there; it was televised. People were shot on live TV in the early seventies. [Editor’s note: the Greensboro Massacre occurred on November 3, 1979 in Greensboro, North Carolina]
KJP: For some reason Marie was out there; I’m not sure. Nelson Johnson, I think he might be a minister, I heard, now. Is he a minister in Greensboro?
ST: I don’t know.
KJP: Anyway I think he was involved in it. I don’t remember but—
ST: There was a “Death to the Klan” rally. That was what they were doing.
KJP: That was after UNCG. But I think I remember the older graduates, the older black students organizing that Black Power Conference that was on campus. But I wasn’t a part of the organizing of it, but I did attend and participate.
ST: And you had mentioned the chancellors. Do you have any memory—You said it was Chancellor Ferguson?
15
KJP: Ferguson, I think, was the chancellor then. And I didn’t have any communication with him, but Ada was usually the communicator. She’s still the communicator. Have you met Ada?
ST: I haven’t met her, but Hermann, who is our archivist in this project at the library, he’s very close with her. He talks about her a lot. She was one of the first people to kind of start this project.
KJP: That would be Ada.
ST: And he always talks about Dr. Ada Fisher so I’ve heard a lot about her. Do you remember anything about Vice-Chancellor Mereb Mossman?
KJP: No.
ST: Or Dean of Students Katherine Taylor? Or, and this is afterward, Alumni Secretary Barbara Parrish?
KJP: No.
ST: Do you have any other memories about professors who made an impression on you?
KJP: No, I wish I could remember the ones that I know liked me, but I don’t.
ST: And do you remember who was your favorite teacher? But if you can’t recall any names at this point—
KJP: No.
ST: Why did you pick psychology? What was—?
KJP: I’m always fascinated with people and their motivations—and still I am—and just kind of what makes people tick. But then when I majored in psychology at that time, I don’t know if this is the sequence of courses now, we had a whole course on—it felt like a whole course on—the eye, you know, all these things. But eventually we got to—And it was the behaviorists’ thinking that was popular at the time that I was majoring in psychology. We learned about other psychologists, [Sigmund] Freud but [B.F.] Skinner, as I said, was the big thing then, and how people’s behaviors really were based on maybe hidden reinforcement schedules that we’re not really aware of. I think we’ve moved beyond the behaviorists now. Anyway, so I’m just curious about people. Then when I looked back, I thought, well, maybe I should have majored in marketing or something—You know the psychology of influencing people’s purchases and why do people buy the things they do—but the heart of it is my curiosity about people and what makes us tick.
ST: Well, what did you do after you graduated from UNCG?
16
KJP: So, you can do nothing with a bachelor’s. My cousin who majored in sociology, she went to Central [North Carolina Central University]—She and I moved to New York and we went looking for jobs, and I remember people had posted “If you majored in psychology or sociology, do not apply here.” So we both ended up—A cousin of ours, an older cousin said, “Why don’t you apply at the library? I hear they’re hiring.” So we went to the library, the New York Public Library, and applied for jobs and we both got jobs. And we got jobs—Our job was called information assistant and we found out later that the cousin was just teasing. He didn’t know anything about it; he was just making a joke. Anyway it resulted in two jobs.
ST: And was this in—Was it the actual New York Public Library system or actual New York Public Library in Manhattan?
KJP: It was the main one—
[End CD 1—Begin CD 2]
ST: Okay, I think we’re back up and working. So where in New York City did you live?
KJP: When we first got our jobs, we were living with a cousin in Jersey City, [New Jersey] so we would commute from Jersey City into Manhattan. And then she and I got an apartment of our own in Jersey City. It was in Hoboken [New Jersey] near the tubes [subway system, which is their underground subway system and so it was easier to get back and forth. And then eventually I decided I wanted to go to graduate school, so then once I got into Columbia [University] Teachers College [New York City], I moved into their dorm, so I lived right there at the school.
ST: [unclear] Sorry about this. I’m worried about this. I started a new one just in case. I don’t want it to record over. So what did you go to Columbia for?
KJP: Well, working in the library, part of my responsibility as information assistant was to do what I told you, and then sometimes I had to work in the children’s room. And when I worked in the children’s room, I noticed that some of the kids would come and ask for books but they couldn’t read them. Now I have said I will never be a teacher; all my life I was like, “I’m not going to be a teacher.” So I was curious; I am a curious person. I called myself with my cousins, “the curious cousin.” So that’s not nosy, curious. “Nosy” is just wanting to know; “curious” means you want to know for a reason. So I wondered about that, and so I remember writing Teachers College—I guess I sent it to the admissions office—and asked is there such a thing as a reading person, teacher-something? They sent me a catalog and basically it was like, “Is there really a Santa Claus?” And they said, “Yes, there is.” Yeah. So after that, I decided, well, I’m really interested in reading. So at Teachers College—I don’t know if it’s the same now—it was under the umbrella of Psychology of School Subjects, so there’s the psychology part because in teaching, it’s not just the information; it’s the whole student. You know, what motivates them, et 17
cetera. So the reading department was in that Psychology of School Subjects Department, so I went to Teachers College and I got two masters—an MA [Master of Arts] and an MEd [Master of Education]—and so I became a reading teacher. And years later I thought maybe I’d like to get a PhD [Doctor of Philosophy], so I started a PhD at Fordham University [New York City], and I guess I did sixteen of the thirty-two credits, course credits, that you had to do, and then I had my son and decided I really wanted to be at home more than that. I didn’t really need it for anything; I wasn’t interested in teaching in a university setting so I stopped. That’s how I got into teaching.
ST: Are you still a teacher?
KJP: I am. I was a reading teacher for many years, and then in ’99 my husband died and I had an opportunity—He died in December of ’99—and then in the spring of 2000, I had an opportunity to be trained as a literacy coach, and I’ll tell you what that is in a minute. So I was kind of torn because in the grieving process I was just, you know, kind of lost. I was very lost and I thought: “You know, he’d probably want me to. I need something new”—anyway. So my principal said if you don’t want to do it, then we’re just not going to have one at our school. Our school and another school had an opportunity. So I thought, okay, I’ll just try it out. So a literacy coach is—coaches all the teachers, and I’m in charge of the kindergarten, first, and second grade teachers, so I coach them and teach them how to teach reading and writing to the children. So I would create workshops for them; I would go into their classrooms—I still do go into their classrooms and model instruction with their students. So that’s basically what it is. They called them literacy coordinators for awhile, and then changed it to literacy coach. So that’s what I do, and basically information that I learn, I translate and help them apply best practices and research-based instruction.
ST: It sounds like a good mixture of psychology and education.
KJP: I get to use all the things I’ve learned over the years, and just apply it in a different way.
ST: That’s great. Do you work at one school or do you work at multiple schools?
KJP: I work in one school, so in Chapel Hill they have literacy coaches in all ten of the elementary schools. They have a K-2 and a 3-5 so there are twenty coaches. That’s probably the coach-richest district in the state. I don’t know. I’m saying that, but—Anyway, they’ve remained true to that model. I love it and I get to work with a lot of new teachers and, you know, as they come out of school, they really—even though they’ve had their little internship—they really need someone to help them, and so I provide that for them. They become wonderful teachers so I enjoy working with the new teachers. And then the veteran teachers, they can learn something, too. I’m fortunate in that most of the ones that I work with have been very cooperative. It’s not necessarily an easy job because you can get people, you know, who just don’t want to change or make the shift, and working with adults is a lot different than working with children. [laughter] But anyway that’s what I do; that’s how I got there.
18
ST: Okay, what school are you in?
KJP: Glenwood Elementary School in Chapel Hill. It’s right seven minutes from here.
ST: I don’t know that school. I was trying to think about where my friends did their internships and student teaching, but they didn’t do that there. I can’t remember where my friends were.
KJP: So if they were in any of the elementary schools, they would have a coach. Now different schools do things different ways. I’ve heard that some principals want their coaches working with more experienced teachers, but in our school our principal wants me working with the newest teachers because we want them to get on track. There’s so much to do as a classroom teacher. It’s quite a challenge. I admire and respect classroom teachers a lot.
ST: Me, too; my mom is a retired teacher and my sister is an elementary school teacher. I don’t envy them for a second, half the time. In the summers I do [envy them] a little bit, when they get summers off but—
KJP: Yes, you need it—
ST: I understand that.
KJP: To refresh for the year because there are more and more requirements and accountability, and now teacher evaluations are tied to—are going to be tied to their student growth, which I don’t really think is—I mean, considering students are people and there is such a variability, I don’t really see how fair that is. I agree that there can be accountability but I don’t think that’s the way. And then I think of the legislators who make all of these policies who’ve never taught a day in their life and really know nothing about education. And what is their accountability? I really would like to see them made accountable for a lot of what they do, but we won’t go off on that subject.
ST: Yes, my mom—She retired, not this school year but the school year before. She was an eighth grade language arts teacher so she goes back every spring and tutors in middle schools for end-of-grade testing. It’s a shame to tie their teacher performance to student performance, because she’s like: There are just some students who will never pass. I hate to say it; I hope that they will pass, but they will never pass. It’s not the teacher’s fault; it’s not the student’s fault; they just, for whatever reason, no matter how much help they can get, they’re not going to get there. She says they need to be trained in other things, and we try to push college and things that they’re never going to do instead of trying to push a skill or a trade. These students just end up just getting frustrated and dropping out and you can’t save them.
KJP: Right, and the dropout rate for black students is huge. It’s mind-boggling. You know, I think there was validity for the vocational and the college. You don’t necessarily have to track them in that you can never switch—which was the way it was before—but there are 19
some who are more interested in vocational, so why shouldn’t they have it? Everyone’s not interested in going to college, but anyway.
ST: When did you come back down to North Carolina? What—How long were you in New York?
KJP: New York: twenty-five years, and I came back because my mother was sick, and so my husband agreed, so my son and I relocated to take care of my mom. So we moved back here in ’95. My mom died in May of ’97 and she was sicker than even she knew. She had cancer and then—So she died in ’97, and then we found out my husband had cancer in ’98 and he died in ’99. And he was my soul mate, when I think about it. So North Carolina was like: Oh, my God, what in the world? My friends in New York were like: You’re going to come back. It’s like: No, I think I’ll just stay here. This is the right place for me at this time in my life. I’ve got a lot of family around here.
ST: Your son still lives around here?
KJP: No, he’s out and about in the world, which I love. He finished Carolina [University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill] and then he went to advertising school—that was his major—in Atlanta [Georgia] for two years. And he’s in advertising, so he’s lived in Montreal [Canada]; he’s lived in Portland [Oregon]; and right now he’s back in New York. He’s really happy to be back home; that’s where he considers home. So he creates—In Portland, [Oregon] he created commercials for Nike—because Nike is out in Portland. Commercials you’ve seen on TV could have been his, and print ads and even some of the things you see in the sneaker stores; you know, those campaigns. He’s done some of those. He’s good; he’s doing really well, and he’s very happy.
ST: Do you go and visit New York frequently?
KJP: Yes, well, he just got back to New York in November, so I will be going up there. When he was in Montreal, he was there six months. I did go up for a couple of weeks; so wherever he is, I go visit him and spend time out there. We’re really good friends.
ST: That’s good. And you have a lot of friends still up in New York?
KJP: Yes, not as many—Actually, some of them moved here. [laughter]
ST: We have better weather, especially this weekend.
KJP: Oh, yes, I’m glad I’m not up there now. Not as many friends as I had. Some have moved here or in other places.
ST: Well, can you tell me how UNCG—attending UNCG affected your life?
KJP: Well, I think it really helped me learn to negotiate in the real world, and by that I mean the world is not segregated. It’s very hard to just be among all black people and achieve 20
the dreams that you may have, so I feel that as [telephone rings] difficult as it was—I’m not going to answer that—As difficult as the years were at UNCG, emotionally and socially, that it toughened me and it helped me to learn how to interact with white people, so I think I’m pretty good at that. [laughter] I think it helped me help my son, too, because he’s negotiated the world. It’s almost like you have to be—I don’t know what the word is but you have—There are two modes of operation: when I’m with my black friends and black—depending on who they are—there’s another way I can interact and socialize; and when I’m with white people—depending on who they are. Professionally there’s a way of operating no matter who it is, but I just feel like we’re almost bilingual, not language-wise but just in terms of modes of operation and so—But I have white friends that I, you know, that are good friends of mine that I feel comfortable enough to be me. And I have black friends that, you know, I’m me; and then there are others, I’m really me. But professionally I really feel like I know how to travel the road that I need to because the majority of the people that I interact with are white. You know, I’m—Let’s see, literacy coaches: there are twenty of us and there are one, two; two black ones, and I’m one of the original literacy coaches so it’s Donna and me, yes. So that’s—If Anything I would say, it was tough and I don’t know if that is the lesson I was supposed to learn but I did, and so it’s helped me in that way. I guess I can say “Thank you.” It’s like a double-edged sword there. I don’t have any of the people that I went to UNCG with, I’m not in touch with them anymore so I can’t say that I had lasting friendships from there because that’s not so. So it was an experience that helped shape me; my character, for sure, and I guess that’s the most I can say.
ST: And you said that you came to a reunion last year. Have you stayed involved with UNCG at all in other respects?
KJP: No, Ada made me come. [laughter]
ST: So you do stay in touch with her.
KJP: Yes, we’re in loose touch. She will e-mail every now and then, but she’s the one who’s like: “Come to this,” she kept saying. I said, “Oh, okay, fine.”
ST: Well, here’s the list; this is by graduation year so this starts at the beginning of who we have in our data base and I know you said you don’t stay in touch with some people so, you know, we show it just in case someone says: Oh, well, this person has moved, or their last name is different, things like that. This can just start the memory juices flowing if you see anybody you remember.
KJP: So these would all be before. [sound of pages being turned] Oh, yes, Betty. Oh, you have Elise Davis [McFarland, Class of 1968] here. Robena Weaver [Egemonye, Class of 1968]. Why do I remember; Robena was whose roommate. Robena: I just remember Robena; she was in our dorm but I can’t remember who her roommate was. The Cheeks, I definitely remember. Alice Barnes [Freeman, Class of 1968]. Those were the ’68 people. Those were like the sister people. There’s Sybil [Ray Ishman, Class of 1968]; she’s still in Geneseo, [New York]. I’ve seen her a couple of times just at a function; we 21
happened to run into each other. Here’s Janyce Brewer [Marshall, Class of 1968]; she’s still in Maryland. Oh, Larry McAdoo [Class of 1968].
ST: Yes, he’s the one we’re trying to get to. He’s in Connecticut, I think.
KJP: Yes, I remember him. [pause] Cassandra died; Cassandra Hodges Yongue [Class of 1968].
ST: Yes, we have that in the notes section.
KJP: It seems like Martha Jo Hightower [Campbell, Class of 1969], Janice Belton [Canada, Class of 1969]; I think I remember her, too. Charles Cole [Class of 1969]: you interviewed him?
ST: We’re trying very, very hard. He’s in Greensboro. If anyone knows him—
KJP: I don’t know that I remember him.
ST: I think he was on the basketball team, too. I don’t know for certain, but I think he was.
KJP: So what do the different colors mean?
ST: Red is that they’ve been interviewed; blue is graduate school alumni. [pause, pages turning]
KJP: [chuckle] Wilsonia Emma Delena Cherry [Class of 1970]. That’s what—Oh, she has just the “D,” but I remember her as Wilsonia Emma Delena Cherry. She’s is in Maryland. Doctor, I’m not surprised. She was driven.
ST: I think two of those ladies are deceased, and I don’t know which ones—the two above Ada.
KJP: LaVerne Davis [Class of 1970], oh, and Wilsonia? No. Catherine Hargrove [Debham, Class of 1970], yes; I think I remember hearing that she died. That’s her middle name? I thought her name—Okay, I think we called her Yvette, but maybe, you know, some people want to be called by their middle names. There’s no information, okay. [pause] I vaguely remember him. And that’s Marie.
ST: Yes, she was one of my last interviews, the first time around when we did these. I actually interviewed her at UNCG. She brought yearbooks and things.
KJP: Interesting. Bernadette. I wonder if that’s when the Four Tops came out with the song, “Bernadette.” I think that may have been weird, jealousy because someone had somebody’s name, that’s all. I told them nobody has Kathryn or Kathy in their song. And then they reminded me that, I think, the Everly Brothers did a song called “Cathy’s Clown,” but that doesn’t count. 22
ST: Do you go by Kathy or Kathryn?
KJP: Kathryn. My family calls me Kathy, but actually I think when I was at UNCG, they probably called me Kathy.
ST: Oh, really. Well, I don’t have any more formal questions, unless there’s anything else you want to add, or you remember, or want to say.
KJP: No. I’m good.
ST: Well, thank you so much and I will be in touch with you.
[End of Interview]