Oral history interview with Hilman Thomas Watkins,1990 [text/print transcript]

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UNCG CENTENNIAL ORAL HISTORY PROJECT COLLECTION
INTERVIEWEE: Hilman Thomas Watkins
INTERVIEWER: Missy Foy
DATE: March 6, 1990
[Begin Tape 1, Side A]
MF: This is Missy Foy. It’s the 6th of March 1990 and I am in the home of Mrs. Hilman Thomas Watkins. I guess if you could start by telling a little bit about your education—like when you went to Woman’s College [of the University of North Carolina, now The University of North Carolina at Greensboro (UNCG)] and what you did after that, and maybe a little bit about what you’re doing now.
HW: Well, I started to WC [Woman’s College] in 1943, and I—my major was business science and secretarial administration, which was like a four-year secretarial—I don’t know whether if you are familiar with that—what that would be like now but—
MF: There’s some spinoff of that—oh, what was the program—well, I’m not sure, but—
HW: Well, they had a one year commercial [course].
MF: Yes, right, commercial, that’s what I was trying to think of.
HW: But this was four years, and of course you got your regular—
MF: Yes, and so that was a spinoff of that, perhaps?
HW: I don’t know, it was just—
MF: Or an enlargement of it, maybe?
HW: Probably. It also gave you basic studies as well as the secretarial work.
MF: So you actually got the complete college education with it?
HW: Yes, I did, yes. It was bachelor of science, but complete. Your first two years were regular courses.
MF: Yes.
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HW: And then the last two years you picked up your different commercial courses.
MF: Okay.
HW: And what did you want to know? What I did afterwards?
MF: Sure, just a little about—
HW: When I left UNCG I worked, say about six months in the Budget Bureau in Raleigh, [North Carolina] while I was at home, for the budget director there. And then I left and went to Washington [D.C.] to work for Senator Umstead, William B. Umstead. He was running a campaign to be—he had been appointed—someone had died, and so he had been appointed to fill the expired term, and it came time for him to run for the election—run for that office and against [Joseph] Melville Broughton who was, at that time, governor of the state.
So, I think it was—I went up at that time when they were having an election, and I stayed a little over a year, and he lost. So then I came back and went to work at NC State [University, Raleigh, North Carolina] as secretary to the 4-H Club leader in North Carolina in connection with extension services. And I was there for four years. And then I was married, and I have not worked officially since. I have helped my husband with—he’s a realtor, and I have helped him in the office at different times. But I have not been paid. [chuckles]
MF: Right, I know what you mean. People who say working around the home isn’t work. Well, it is. How would you describe student life when you were at Woman’s College? Could you talk a little bit about that? What was it like to be a student?
HW: Well, I went to school during the War [World War II was a global conflict that occurred between 1939-1945], which was—I should think would be very different. They were very restrictive when we first went, and I was thinking about it last night, I had been dating a young man in Raleigh and was very serious about him. And when he came to see me on campus—in order to go off campus, we had to double date. And if we stayed on campus—with just the two of us dating, we had to stay on campus. And that just, you know, kind of threw me a little bit, but I guess they had to be careful and particularly during the war. There was an Air Force camp there, and there were a lot of soldiers coming and going—Air Force folks, it was where they would leave for overseas. So the turnover was pretty [unclear]. Anyway, my social life was very nil. [chuckles] We had dances on campus that, you know, with these young men that you would never see again. We had our societies at that time. Do they still have them?
MF: No, not now. I don’t know exactly when they ended.
HW: Well, I want you to know that my mother went [to] State Normal [and Industrial College, now The University of North Carolina at Greensboro]. And they had those societies when she was there. And of course, when she went they were very important. When we went, every student was put into a society—there were four of them—so that there was not the 3
sorority atmosphere of rushing or being invited. So everybody was put into one. But it did kind of divide you up into four groups, and there were only a thousand students there when I went, and we did have meetings, but it really wasn’t that important. But we did have functions or get-togethers in the society groups. I think my only claim to fame—I don’t know whether you still have chief marshals or not.
MF: There are marshals at the—like convocation and—
HW: Well, we had those then, and they were—the chief marshal was elected. It was in the—by the whole campus, and then the individual marshals were selected in—each society who’d select eight. And my senior year—I was a marshal my junior year too, and then in my senior [year] I was the chief marshal. And we marshaled at all functions. I don’t know whether they do it now. The City of Greensboro used that auditorium for all their symphonies and plays and ballets and other functions. So that we marshaled all these functions. We were going two or three times a week and on weekends, and it was big business. And then, so that was part of our social—or our activities, because we were limited in what we could do. And couldn’t go home the first six weeks you were there.
MF: Do you know what the reasoning behind that was?
HW: So that you would get into college life and not be flitting off here and there or maybe running home.
MF: Make a break with home?
HW: With your home life, yes.
MF: Okay.
HW: When I went to college the twelfth grade had just been officially put into the high schools.
MF: That’s right, I forgot about that.
HW: And I went that twelfth year in Raleigh. But most of the girls that went were from the smaller schools—they’d only had eleven grades so therefore, when I went I was a year older that most of my classmates—which [unclear], age is what I’m thinking about. Because I went when I was eighteen, and I graduated when I was twenty-two, which is right old [unclear]. We had right much dormitory competition.
MF: Oh, really?
HW: And we’d have dances in the dorm. And we had—I’m trying to figure what kind of competitions we had—evading me. [pause] And we would compete in some way or another—had those six freshman dorms. I don’t know if they still have them or not.
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MF: On the Quad.
HW: On the Quadrangle area. And I was one of the first ones to move into Weil [Residence Hall]—a hundred years ago.
MF: Wasn’t Weil supposed to be a highly sought-after dorm to be in—
HW: Definitely. And I did not get in there my sophomore year. And there were so many in our freshman class, when we went into the sophomore year that they had to make one of those freshman dorms an upper classman dorm, and it was full of us sophomores. Jamison [Residence Hall] had Mrs. [Lillian] Cunningham. And she’s still living, and she is our—kind of like our everlasting advisor for our class.
MF: Right. Somebody else was talking about that [unclear].
HW: Yes. We have corresponded occasionally. Let’s see. Well, what else do you need to know?
MF: As far as the societies, you were saying you were chief marshal. Wasn’t being a marshal something really important during this—?
HW: Very important, yes. Very. It was not maybe ranked along with your officers, but you were elected the same time as the officers—chief marshal was. Now, the individual marshals were elected within the societies, and there were thirty-two of them.
MF: How were the marshals selected, and what was the basis for it?
HW: Popularity—
MF: Right.
HW: —and more for their—whether they were outstanding in school or in the theatre or—rather than education I would say.
MF: Right. So it wasn’t really academic?
HW: No, it was social, like a social club—if they were pretty, poised or just girls that were well liked, well-rounded, maybe, and well liked.
MF: And what some people have told me that—the marshals would have to wear their sash and all that to dinner because they had to go right from dinner to some of the functions and that a lot of people were very envious.
HW: Very, but it was—as I say, it was—I guess about my only claim to fame in my life. For me, it was a lot of responsibility, because you had to schedule these girls, and you didn’t want them working every night or every time you had a function so it—some of them 5
couldn’t go or had exams or something or—and I had to send out cards [unclear], post office [unclear] and they were supposed to be and what time.
MF: So you were in charge of scheduling?
HW: Yes, yes.
MF: All the other marshals?
HW: And then at graduation, I led the girls in and we were sort of like the hostess at graduation for the dignitaries that were attending or for parents.
MF: With the societies—I know you were talking about—with the four different societies you said it tended to break the campus up into four groups—did it really? Did the societies—did you feel a certain bond toward the other members of the same society?
HW: No. That was interesting I think, but we did not. They were not that active. I think it was something that had been carried over, say, from my mother’s era, and it was going along because of tradition. It was just—things that had been done that way through the years. I understand it wasn’t too long after I left [unclear] that did not. I don’t know. I don’t know what happened—
MF: I’m not sure either.
HW: —what really happened to them. Another interesting thing—we wore these regalia. And we had to have them made. And the fringe, which was about that long on the ends of them, would carry over from year to year. But each girl had to get their own regalia and they wore your class colors. Mine were red and white, and one side was red and one was white, and Mother or whoever made it for me, and then you get your fringe and sew it on, and then you had to give it up every year. [chuckles]
But on across the plaque, we wore a plaque right across here with your class year on it. And mine was red satin with a white 1947 on it. But we wrapped the satin around our laundry cards, which was just that size. This was a card that we filled out with a st—[unclear]. But anyway, we had ours picked up at the dorm, mind you. But anyway, these cards—we gave them out at the first meeting at marshals—I think I’m right on this. And you got everybody to write a little note—on the back, on the blank side of these laundry cards—to you—and not let you see them, and you wrapped them up and wore them all year long. Then we had a party at the end of the year. I remember having it at the Alumni House in the [unclear]—serving dishes and we had a [unclear] and a black man, I can’t think of his name who helped us serve, anyway—Big Bill—and everybody opened up their cards and read what everybody had said at the beginning of the year about them. [laughs] I’m sure they don’t do that now, it seems pretty silly now. That was part of our ritual. And—are you interested in the laundry?
MF: Sure.
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HW: [laughs] Well, you know, men were not allowed in the dorms. So on the day your laundry was to be picked up, you put it in your bag with your number—are there numbers? I don’t know what you do with those—
MF: Like, you mean your student ID number?
HW: No. We did—we didn’t have numbers back then. We were just—like W420 was mine. I don’t know why they assigned me that number but it—I have sheets upstairs now with that W, I mean T420, or whatever it was. I don’t know W now. My daughter went up there, that’s the reason I’m getting confused. Anyway, we put the laundry outside the door, and then this black man would come pick it up and carry it off in the laundry truck to the laundry. But what was always interesting was he would stand at the end of the hall and yell out in this loud voice, “Man on the hall!” And we would all, you know, you’d go close your door if it had been open, or if you were in the bathroom, you secured yourself or whatever. And there was a man coming down the hall. [laughs] And you put it in the bag and then it was a little cart sort of thing that had runners underneath it. I guess if [unclear] the laundry in some way or other. But they would bring it back in these little carts, and everything was laid in there. I don’t know how to tell you—it was cloth—it was heavy canvas, and it was about this long—about two feet long and about a foot and a half wide. The reason I’m telling you this is that they made wonderful sleds in the wintertime.
MF: Oh, I’m sure they did.
HW: And we’d take those out on the—past the tennis courts and go down in that direction.
MF: Where the golf course is now.
HW: Yes. Go down in that—wonderful. Because none of us had a sled, you know. But those laundry carts were marvelous. We tore up a many one. [laughs]
MF: Did they fold your laundry and everything?
HW: Yes.
MF: Wow, that’s nice.
HW: It was all just neat. Your sheets came back just pressed to perfection, first class—your towels and everything.
MF: I could handle that.
HW: Well, some of them would even put their hose—[unclear]—well, your underwear, everything. I never did do that, I’d hand wash mine. [Editor’s note: the conversation with Mrs. Watkins’ husband, Roger Watkins, was redacted.] Is this the type of school stuff you wanted to know? 7
MF: Yes. As far as dorm life went, how was—how would you characterize dorm life for—to someone like me who wasn’t, who wasn’t—who didn’t go to school at that time? What could you tell me to help me understand what it was like to live in the dorm at that time? What about like the parietal rules and you had to sign in and out and stuff like that?
HW: Yes. You had to be in at certain times. I think it was twelve o’clock or something like that. Eleven-thirty, Sunday nights. They had gates, they’d close the gates up there [unclear] Shaw, where Shaw is, they had gates around it and you could not drive in—and we had to run from there down to Weil or Jamison or wherever at one minute to eleven. [pause] I feel like that there was maybe more of a closeness then than the girls get now, or I’m speaking of my daughter who’s been out about fifteen years, but we made a lot of bonds there that we continue today when we go back at the reunions. And well, I was on only child, so it was a great experience for me. I mean, I just loved—really met people and in fact, this past weekend, my college roommate came to my party Sunday, and she—until that [unclear] we hadn’t seen each other since we left in 1947.
MF: Oh, my.
HW: So that—but we just picked right up, you know, where we left off and we just—I’ve—I’ve seen that she’s moved to Raleigh now, and she’s moved away now in another state, and hadn’t seen each other. But I feel just as comfortable. And we laughed and talked about skipping across the campus. I saw some ladies on television doing just that last night, so I didn’t feel too dumb about it but—going down to the bakery and different things we—recalling the things that we did and—I still keep in touch with, I bet, fifteen of them at Christmas time now with cards.
MF: Right.
HW: And we—we had a house president and her roommate, and you were supposed to be able to talk to them about anything you wanted to, some you could and some you couldn’t.
MF: Oh, I’m sure.
HW: And Mrs.—Miss [Katherine] Taylor [Class of 1928, French professor, dean of women, dean of students, dean of student services] was my counselor in Weil—and I think she has moved on down the road, but she was dean of women there at UNCG for a while. She was a WAC [Editor’s note: Miss Taylor served with the United States WAVES (Women Accepted for Volunteer Emergency Service)] and came back after the War, turned out to be a very important person on campus. I remember her as well as Miss Cunningham, who was my counselor there.
MF: What about the classroom life? What about the classes here? What do you remember about—?
HW: Yes, I remember, I mean, I remember—they knew who you were. I don’t know whether that’s the case now, I mean— 8
MF: Well, it’s much larger now.
HW: They would call you by name and speak to you when you go across campus and I kept in touch with a couple after I finished school. It was a good relationship, and in my major, we had so many different professors that I really didn’t create any one person that I knew better than the rest of them, but—I always stood in awe of all of them. [chuckles]
MF: Yes, I know.
HW: I was fairly comfortable with them and, you know. I don’t remember any functions particular that we went to that they were a part of [unclear].
MF: So it was more of an academic relationship?
HW: Definitely, it was formal.
MF: Okay, all right.
HW: Not getting together and sitting on the floor and talking, that sort of thing.
MF: Yes, right. I know that, you know, the War was going on [unclear] and you had said [unclear], and obviously it was a major factor that shaped your college experience. Could you talk about that some more? How it influenced—
HW: Well, I do remember the day that Franklin Roosevelt, the president, died. I felt like my grandfather had died. And we were very perturbed about that, at least I was personally, because he’d been president ever since I’d been conscious of presidents, you see.
MF: Right.
HW: Three terms like that, so that we felt like—oh, it was just, you know, just didn’t know what was going to happen to us, our grandfather had passed away.
MF: Didn’t the funeral train come through Greensboro?
HW: Now that I don’t remember.
MF: Because I remember somebody saying that.
HW: Did they say that? Well, that didn’t stick in my mind.
MF: And that some students had gone down to the train station to watch it pass.
HW: Yes. [unclear] Talking about during the war, we had terrible ways—means of getting back and forth from home to school. And transportation made me think about the trains. I remember riding from Raleigh to Greensboro between two cars, you know, outdoors—9
because there wasn’t room inside, and I did well to get on the train. I sat on my suitcase. Hopefully, it was good weather. [laughs] I remember sitting on the train riding all the way up there. I remember being put off the bus in Burlington, because I didn’t have—I mean I—they had to change buses there, and we were put out on the side of the road. And one night there were eight of us that got put off, didn’t catch the bus home. And, you know, if you were late, you were in a heap of trouble. So we all, we hired two taxis and went from Burlington to Greensboro in taxis. I think it cost eight dollars, barely room for all of us. But anyway, transportation—we all were, we didn’t have our sugar and we didn’t have our shoes and our pretty clothes.
MF: I think—wasn’t milk rationed in the cafeteria, milk and sugar?
HW: Just sugar, I don’t remember milk.
MF: Just sugar.
HW: Yes, you had ration stamps for sugar, which I still have some stamps from the year of rations. You were rationed with shoes, and they were made out of a very poor grade of plastic that, if you got one little tear the whole shoe went. But you had to have a stamp to get shoes, you know, leather shoes. Silk hose were all that we wore. And then they were rationed, because you couldn’t get silk. That’s when we started wearing rayon. [unclear] One thing I do remember though, there were a lot of girls getting married and leaving school, or either they get married and leave and then come back with these new names, you know.
And then I do remember we had on frequent occasions, a young man would come back to the United States and if he was in the Air Force, more than likely he would buzz our dorm and that was very exciting. That was fun and we’d all rush out because we knew who was coming home and, here he is. None of us knew him, but here he was. So and so’s fiancé or boyfriend was home and he was in town. He would land out at the airport, I guess, and come in.
MF: What was the atmosphere on campus with regard to the War? Did people talk about it a lot? Were people really concerned? Did it seem like being a student in college at that time you were kind of isolated from everything?
HW: Well, I think maybe—we talked about it, but I don’t feel that—I mean, I wasn’t much into the battle or the areas. But then, I had no one in the service. I was not particularly involved with any young man that was in service, and I had no brothers, and I had no cousins in the service. So I had no personal concern. Mine was just with someone else’s relatives or friends. And as far as being tuned in to all these activities that were going on, I was not personally. My husband was in the service, and he talks about all these things that, you know, that I was not aware of. I personally was not tuned in to the battle of this or the battle of that or—well, D-Day [June 6, 1944, the Allies invaded Normandy, France and began to retake Europe from Nazi Germany] I was, or something like that. But, I mean I did not keep up with the war. And I was not particularly aware of that. However, you had your posters up, you know—and “Buy Bonds,” war bonds, and conserve your 10
food and gasoline—that type of thing, and I was conscious about this. But it’s—and of course we hated the Germans.
MF: Right.
HW: But, you know, I wasn’t really—
MF: Didn’t really know why, though?
HW: No, not really tuned into all that. But that was in [unclear], though. It was not maybe in the history books or—
MF: [unclear] I know that you were saying, as far as men coming on campus and the regulations that went with that—were there a lot of men coming on campus from time to time as visitors and stuff, or was that sort of like just a weekend thing?
HW: Well, they came during the week, but they had to be gone by ten o’clock.
MF: Okay.
HW: And they—and if it was someone you didn’t know like that, see, you couldn‘t go off campus. So there were—the freshmen couldn’t date during the week, but the upper classmen could. But on weekends, there were right many. Now in, like, say, your junior and senior year, this was when the war was over, 1945. In’46 and ’47 we did not have all those regulations anymore. And, you know, you couldn’t go home but say like three weekends a semester, something like that.
MF: Oh, really?
HW: Oh, yes. And then after that, being an upper classman, then you could go as often as you wanted to. And by the way, we had Saturday classes.
MF: Right.
HW: And that cramped your style through the weekend. But in my junior and senior year, we became very wise and arranged our schedules so you would take classes that met only on Tuesday and Thursday and not Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. And we wised up to that, so that you had—you could leave on Friday afternoons, is what we did. And of course you could get passes to not be there for certain reasons, but—and if you had obtained a certain average. What do you call it?
MF: Skip days—
HW: Yes, I believe you could not be at the class. But otherwise you were supposed to be there.
MF: Didn’t you also have a—I’m trying to think of what it was called—Tuesday Chapel? 11
HW: I was just thinking about that, yes, in the chapel. And everybody attended. The whole student body was there. And we were arranged alphabetically. The girl that sat next to me lives right down the street. [laughs]
MF: Oh, goodness.
HW: Yes. And we had twelve o’clock Chapel, and then usually the lunch after that was unusual, [unclear] lunch at the chapel. Well, we just had different—well, I can’t think of what we had, just speakers or choral groups or theater skits. Something else comes to my mind, in the earlier years they had movies every Saturday night, so you could go, but you couldn’t go off campus to the movies, they had one that was ten years old that you could see there. We didn’t have any recent ones. [chuckles]
Yes, the Chapel just lasted an hour, and everybody was required to go unless you had a good excuse. You were kept up with. They knew where you were and what you were doing, which is what our mother and fathers wanted.
MF: Right.
HW: At school.
MF: Another thing is I’ve heard some people say that there was a certain caliber student at Woman’s College—that Woman’s College was thought to be one of the better schools to go to.
HW: Well, I don’t know if I’m quoting right, but as I remember it, WC—I’ll say WC, [unclear] starting to say UNCG—well, you know, was ranked third in the nation in women’s schools. Now, I don’t know which universities—I don’t know which two were ahead of us. But we were ranked third in the United States as I remember quoting from somebody. But I thought that was good. I was very proud to have graduated from there.
MF: Was it hard for some people to get in there? Was—?
HW: No, I shouldn’t think so.
MF: Okay, but it was just a certain quality of student that would go there?
HW: Well, back there then, you see, back then everyone didn’t go to college. And like in my circumstances, we had just come out of the [Great] Depression [severe worldwide economic depression that took place during the 1930s] and my father was a salaried employee, state employee. So he wasn’t—he was affected. At least he had money coming in, but he wasn’t in business for himself, he was a salaried person. So that I remember that that was one of the reasons that I went there, because it was very reasonable. It was an excellent education priced reasonably, and being from Raleigh, several of my friends went to Meredith [College]. And of course, no one went to [University of North] Carolina [at Chapel Hill], which was where we all wanted to go. [laughs] You didn’t do that until 12
your junior year—Carolina. So some of my friends transferred—not too many of them. But you did have to be a good student to transfer.
MF: During the War, did they—at that particular time did they let any men attend some of the classes as a town student? I know there were different times throughout the history of Woman’s College when they did, and I was wondering if during the War, if that was when it occurred?
HW: I don’t remember. I just was not—I don’t remember seeing them.
MF: Okay.
HW: I knew some town students, but they were kind of—in fact, they were in the [unclear], they just weren’t in our—I knew who they were. But I knew they were town students, and they had a room in the bottom of the—what’s that new building over there? Not McIver [Building] but it’s the one up next—
MF: Foust [Building]?
HW: Foust. It was their collecting place. And we saw them in the classroom or either going in there and—there were no men that I knew of. If there were, I don’t know about it.
MF: Okay, I know during the Depression they had let a few men in.
HW: They did?
MF: Yes.
HW: Well, they very well could have. But I was just not tuned in with that. I was very tuned into—See, this was the first time I had really run into many men professors. I never had very many in high school. Do you know Dr. Bardolph [history professor]?
MF: Right, Richard Bardolph.
HW: Yes, he had just come to WC as a young man. And he was quite dashing at that time.
MF: Oh, I see—oh yes, as a matter of fact I’ve seen a picture of him from when he first came, yes.
HW: He was younger, then.
MF: What were the—what was the caliber of the faculty? How would you classify them? Were they really top-notch people or—
HW: I think so. I looked up to them. I mean, I—Miss Hege was—always impressed me. I don’t know whether you’ve run across that name or not. Josephine Hege [Class of 1927, 13
counselor, history professor]. She was a political science teacher. She was quite a—well, and Miss [Jane] Summerell [Class of 1910], the English teacher. I remember those two in particular. Yes, they were very—I don’t know—I worked hard. Maybe it was just me, but I—and I learned. I mean we had to learn. But, you know, being the first time, particularly for me, on your own—a lot of adjustments to make [unclear]. I felt—I looked up to all my professors, and I felt like they were very high caliber.
MF: What about Miss [Harriet] Elliott [history and political science professor, dean of women, public servant, political figure], did you know her?
HW: I knew her, but I did not have her—she did not teach. She was dean of women right about that time. And I kind of stood in awe of her. She was very nice and very [unclear] person as I remember. I never had any association with her. [chuckles]
MF: Oh, I know. A lot of people that I’ve talked to speak very highly of her.
HW: And then this Miss Taylor I was talking about [unclear], I knew her better.
MF: Oh, okay.
HW: And, but—then I remember Chancellor [Walter Clinton] Jackson [unclear].
MF: Right.
HW: He was the typical college president.
MF: Oh, how so?
HW: Well, he was—have you ever seen his picture?
MF: Once.
HW: He’s sort of stately looking, friendly—walking around looking like he was in charge of things. I mean he looked like he had it all in control. [chuckles]
MF: Right. The statue of [President] Charles McIver, was that on campus yet? I know there was—later on it became the focus of a lot of painting the statue and stuff. Did any of that occur while you were there? I’m trying to figure out when that started. Probably started in the ’50s.
HW: [unclear] I don’t remember seeing it. Was that in front of McIver [Building]?
MF: I don’t know, maybe.
HW: What I think is interesting. When I was there—I think the Alumni House had just—hadn’t been built too long. Also that old building with the post office next to it. 14
MF: Yes, what is that now, faculty—
HW: I don’t know, but it’s been torn down. It’s not there.
MF: Oh, that’s right, but the faculty house is where it used to be?
HW: Yes. Well, no—it’s the Alumni House and that’s—just goes on into where you go to the Library.
MF: Oh, into the Elliott Student Center?
HW: Oh yes, the Elliott Student Center, that’s right.
MF: [unclear]
HW: Now that used to be in the basement, you know of [unclear], the student center. And it was about as big as—has anyone ever told you this—about as big as half this room.
MF: That’s small.
HW: For the whole student body. I mean, to get in there between classes was like pulling teeth. You’d send somebody ahead to save you a seat, and then you sat in their lap when you got in there. It was—it wasn’t but four or five little booths in there—and get a drink, a Coke or something.
MF: Wow! And wasn’t the post office down there as well?
HW: The post office was in that wooden building next to the Alumni [House]. I don’t know—building.
MF: Because I know a lot of people have said the post office was an important focal point on campus during the War.
HW: It was, very much so. And I have to say this, that my mother wrote me a postal card, every day, she wrote me a postal card.
MF: Why?
HW: [unclear] “Dad’s fine. Love, Mom.” Something like that, but it was—
MF: Something that you could get mail [unclear]—
HW: —that I looked for. And if I didn’t get one—and it had a combination to [unclear]—what other class—classes have you interviewed?
15
MF: Several from different years from the ’40s, several from ’50s and ’60s, and just a couple from the ’30s. I guess most of the ones have been from the ’60s.
HW: That’s—this is what I was looking for [sound of looking through yearbook]. See here’s the alumni building. Here it is right here. It was a great big building—
MF: Oh, okay I see.
HW: See how big it is?
MF: Yes.
HW: It was there when my mother was there. And the post office was in the basement. See, here’s the Infirmary. That’s gone now, too. Here’s Foust [Building] and McIver [Building]. And then that’s the Library. This is the Home Ec[onomics] Building—this is Science Building. This is the auditorium, and here’s where I did my business things, over here. And you see that house was still there. I thought it was. And it’s torn down now? [Editor’s note: Mrs. Watkins is referring to the McIver House, which was built in 1892 and torn down in 1952. It stood on the corner of College Avenue and Spring Garden Street.]
MF: It’s not there.
HW: It’s just the [College] Bell there.
MF: The Bell’s not even there now.
HW: Oh, it isn’t?
MF: No. The thing’s there, but there’s no Bell.
HW: Bell.
MF: I don’t know what happened to the Bell.
HW: [unclear] This is—
MF: The Library is across the street. And—the Student Center is—
HW: —right in here. I was right here. And the Library is in here.
MF: Right all back in here. And the Administration Building is—
HW: [unclear] The business building is back over here.
MF: Yes, the Administration Building is here. Well, this street goes straight, now. 16
HW: Well, this is where the president lives. That’s the President’s House.
MF: Right. And the Administration Building is—oh, no it’s—
HW: Way over here. Because this is that corner where you went to get your ice cream.
MF: Park Gym is there, I know. I know, right here. Park Gym is right here.
HW: What is that?
MF: Park Gymnasium, it’s just basketball.
HW: Well, here’s the gym.
MF: Well, this is just a little one.
HW: And this—Spencer [Residence Hall]. In that corner room there is where my mother was. I think she was there in 19—
MF: That’s what, South Spencer dorm?
HW: South Spencer. But she finished high school in 1909. I guess maybe she went in ’10. And then of course, my daughter was in one of the dorms down in here.
MF: One of the high rises?
HW: Yes. Times have really changed.
MF: Oh, yes.
HW: Here’s the [Brown] Music Building.
MF: Oh, yes. Oh, and Tate Street’s not really big [unclear] at this time, is it?
HW: Well, that was The Corner. You had the bakery and the shops and—
MF: Right, yes. Well, it’s still not built up now.
HW: No. But we used to love to go to that bakery. Gooey buns, and they were so [unclear]
MF: Oh yes, oh, was that—what was the name—what was the name of the bakery?
HW: I wish I could remember. I don’t ever remember talking about it.
MF: Friar? [Editor’s note: Friar’s Cellar opened in the 1971.]
17
HW: I don’t really know. But it was a fried thing about that big, with white goo in the middle and covered with chocolate. I mean, [sighs] that was the highlight of the day.
MF: Oh, to go down and get it?
HW: To go down and get one of those. I’m trying to see—where is the Laundry? Was it right there?
MF: I don’t know where it is now. In front of the Library? I don’t know where it was at that time.
HW: But see, it doesn’t look like it’s there.
MF: Well, it’s hard to tell with the trees.
HW: I’m really not too sure exactly where—
MF: I think you’re right. I think it was in there somewhere.
HW: This is where we had graduation.
MF: Oh, really?
HW: Yes. And our May Day was over here.
MF: What was May Day? I know what May Day was, but what did you do for May Day?
HW: Well, I was in—I was one of the members of the court. We had a queen and maid who were elected. And then we had a maid that was selected by the queen—it was usually their roommate.
MF: Right.
HW: And then we had a court, or—I guess—I don’t know how many—there were about—sixteen I guess, or something like that. And they were elected from—I don’t know how.
MF: But from the student body?
HW: Yes, from the student body. Here is the May Queen, and then this is the one that was elected, and then she was selected, I was her roommate. And then there was, let’s see, one, two, three—
[End Tape 1, Side A—Begin Tape 1, Side B]
18
HW: Also had Who’s Who, do they still have that?
MF: Not that I’m aware of.
HW: Among students at American universities—
MF: Oh, yes, there’s a Who’s Who, it’s nationwide.
HW: Yes, yes.
MF: There’s a Who’s Who in a lot of different things now. There’s Who’s Who in—
HW: In high schools now.
MF: Yes, high schools, and then education, Who’s Who in History, you know, all the publications.
HW: But—and then we had the eight outstanding seniors that were selected.
MF: Were they selected by faculty or—?
HW: I think so.
MF: Probably.
HW: Yes, I think maybe they were. Now this kind of refreshes my memory to go through this. [sound of looking through yearbook]
MF: Oh, I’m sure it does.
HW: Miss Taylor—dressed up for [unclear].
MF: Did they have—?
HW: You see we had the—what was it—did the aquatics—
MF: [unclear] And I know they had Daisy Chain.
HW: Yes, [unclear]. That’s done by the junior class and they—I’m sorry, it’s done by the sister class.
MF: What’s the sister class?
HW: That’s—two years.
MF: Okay. Sophomore? 19
HW: Sophomore class. At the end of the sophomore year, the sophomores would make the daisy chain with the daisies—go out and get the wild daisies and brought them all together. It was woven about like that. And then there would be two lengths, and they would stand holding them as the seniors would come in for graduation.
MF: Right.
HW: And that was—and if you were selected to the—to do the Daisy Chain, that was an honor—and I don’t remember how that was done.
MF: Did they have a—I think it was—what was it called, Rat Day for the freshmen? [Editor’s note: it was a day of hazing during which freshman girls who were called “Rats” were required to dress in a particular fashion and perform various tasks dictated by the Sophomores who were known as “Cats.” This tradition started in the 1930s and ended in the early 1970s.]
HW: Yes. But it would be—you’re bringing back memories to me—when you—did they do something?
MF: I don’t know. Most people were sort of vague on that—they can’t quite remember about that.
HW: Isn’t that terrible? That’s terrible. This was our president. And I ran into her in, in the Piccadilly [Cafeteria] about two months ago. She’s living in Raleigh.
MF: Oh, okay.
HW: No, I just don’t—
MF: And one other thing I want to make that, sure I ask you about was—there’s the problem between the alumni right now and Chancellor [William E.] Moran and a lot of people don’t seem to know a whole lot about it, but they know a little bit, so I’m getting a little bit from everybody, so—
HW: I think I’m one of those.
MF: Okay, well what do you know about it?
HW: Well, it’s my idea that all along, the Alumni Association has been—not separate, but to one side from the college, so to speak. Not, you know, not directly under them. And I assume now—
MF: On an equal level, sort of?
HW: Yes. I mean I just felt like they functioned as a little unit over here themselves, and we supplied money, and they used it accordingly, with advice from the college or help from 20
the college. And that now, they are incorporating it into the university and make it just a part of the university, which sounds like that’s what it ought to be. But there are some unhappy folks.
MF: Right. So controlling aspect of it?
HW: Well, you know— [pause]
MF: Well, if there’s something you don’t want to say, then don’t worry about it, okay
HW: I’m not going to say it.
MF: You can just be vague if you’d rather be vague.
HW: Well, I just—I think we’ve gone along, and things have been so great—and for us that were there years ago to come along and have things change and it was—the older you get, sometimes you don’t like change. And this is a change that doesn’t seem to tune in to what I’ve been thinking about. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s wrong. I certainly want to be open to change but—I don’t know—I like the way it was. I had a little closer feeling, I think particularly because I was a friend of Barbara Parrish [Class of 1948, executive director of the Alumni Association, director of alumni affairs]. She was my reason for going back—Miss Taylor knew me. That was the reason I’ve been back was to see somebody that remembered me. And of course Barbara would remember me.
MF: Well, Barbara has resigned from her position from the Alumni Board—and I’m not sure, but does that, did that have something to do with the situation with Chancellor Moran?
HW: It may have.
MF: It may have. Yes, I was wondering if it might have, you know. Okay. But basically then, there are some pretty hard feelings?
HW: I don’t have any hard feelings, I’m just disappointed.
MF: Oh, well, I mean for some people, right.
HW: I think so.
MF: Yes, I think some people are well, more concerned than others.
HW: I think it’s real interesting how some girls left school, college and never went back. And my roommate was one of them. She’s never been back for one second. I’ve been back every time they have a reunion. And I’ve been asked to these seminars that I thoroughly enjoy. I love going back and enjoy seeing them. Then there’s some that have done it sort of in between. I think the ones that have been going back so often are the ones that now realize that we have lost something. 21
MF: Do you feel like the university—well, I guess in general but also in particular considering this move to incorporate the Alumni Association—does it feel like it’s not part of you anymore.
HW: That’s right, yes.
MF: Right.
HW It does and they have changed their alumni giving.
MF: Oh, really?
HW: Oh, it’s—I’m just completely lost. I gave every year until, maybe two years ago. I have lost track of what’s happening, so I just—
MF: They changed the—
HW: They call you on the phone.
MF: Yes, I remember being called.
HW: Which—and stated how much they thought I ought to give—
MF: Oh!
HW: Which did not appeal to me at all—which I [unclear].
MF: Right. Where did that—maybe you don’t know, but if you do—do you remember where that came from?
HW: I don’t know. They just said—I assumed they were calling from Greensboro.
MF: Right. Well, I’m sure they probably got students to do it.
HW: Yes, and lists to call.
MF: But I’m talking about as far as—like with stating an amount or something. I—that doesn’t sound like something that Barbara Parrish would hand down.
HW: No. I don’t think it was.
MF: This was more a university mandate.
HW: That’s right.
22
MF: I didn’t realize that was back in the work there. I know myself being in graduate school now, ask for money, you know, and it makes me want to laugh.
HW: Well, it just sort of—you know, you’ve given through the years, and you’ve done what you can do and the amount in which you can. And then for somebody to come up and say, well, how much can you do? And I think, well, at the time, I don’t really know. I do it every year, and I’ll send what I can. And they said, well, we’d like to have about so and so and so and so. And I’ll tell you now. I’m not able to do that. But I will do whatever I can and send what I can, and then I would. Now they’ve had some drives—or whatever you call them—over three years and give the amount over the three years and I’ve done that. So—
MF: Wasn’t there a letter that came out? I don’t remember—it came out with an alumni publication, but I don’t remember who it was by. But somebody that I’d interviewed in Greensboro had shown me a partial copy where it was talking about something with the incorporation of the Alumni Association and something—it had reference to, I don’t—warning is too strong a word, but maybe a caution as far as thinking about your contributions in relation to this. Wasn’t there a letter? I guess maybe—
HW: Yes, yes and I think I’ve just, I’m sorry to say, I threw it away.
MF: Yes. This person just could remember parts of it.
HW: I wish I’d kept it. This is not it. I usually stick forms in here. No, this is something else. This is something else.
MF: I know one other thing I want to ask you about this though is—when I talk to people who have graduated, say maybe fifteen years ago or less, they don’t seem to really know anything about this situation with the alumni and Chancellor Moran, and I was wondering if you could shed some light on that.
HW: I surely can’t.
MF: Okay.
HW: No.
MF: Maybe it just has something to do with how active a person is.
HW: I do feel like that we in the earlier years are much closer than your [students of] fifteen years ago, but that’s because it’s gotten so much larger.
MF: Right, right.
HW: And I think that’s what we hate giving up, is that feeling—
23
MF: That closeness?
HW: Closeness.
MF: Yes.
HW: And like I said, you just—you had one or two people that you knew were there, and they’d be glad to see you and call you by your first name. That makes a big difference.
MF: It does, and can’t you stay in a room at the Alumni House or something, liked that?
HW: Yes. [unclear] if we so desired. And like I said, we’ve had these wonderful seminars through the years and every time they write and ask me, why, I was just thrilled and honored to go and thoroughly enjoyed it and—of course they were from all the classes that just—sometimes it turned out—one year I went, and there wasn’t anyone else from my class that would go that year. But you—there were ones around you that you would remember. But then you got to meet other classes. But things change, the college changes. It’s not—it doesn’t even seem like my school when I go back. It’s just—but that’s all right. You’ve got to have change to progress. That’s how I feel about it.
MF: Yes, I guess some people feel like—yes, progression is a double-edged sword, though.
HW: Well, I think you’ve got to change. But then you’ve got to hold on to some of that too [unclear].
MF: Yes, okay. One last question about this, and then we’ll drop this subject but, do you know anything as far as—I’ve been told by some people that different women have tried to approach Chancellor Moran and do you know anything about—Some people say he doesn’t seem responsive.
HW: I have never tried to. [unclear]
MF: Oh, okay. I just wondered if you knew of anything—
HW: I’ve been in his presence at these seminars.
MF: See, I’ve never met him, myself.
HW: And of course I can’t give it—I’d be speaking on [unclear] subject [unclear]. I don’t know. I’ve never went up to even speak to him personally. I just saw him at a meeting, and he was—
MF: [unclear] Okay. Are there any—is there anything else that I’ve managed to stir in your memory that you just have to— 24
HW: Well, I think what I told you is pretty trivial in a lot of cases. I didn’t know exactly what you wanted. I think it’s interesting, now apparently they don’t have a course like I took when I was there—it was all administration.
MF: Right. I think they have like business administration, accounting, [unclear].
HW: Yes, you specialize more [unclear].
MF: Right.
HW: You come along with your computers, and it’s a whole new ball game.
MF: Oh gosh! Yes.
HW: Jeepers! So—but, in general I would say that the school being small, we felt more like a big family, and we knew everybody on campus. If I didn’t know their name, I knew their face.
MF: Yes, yes.
HW: And so, therefore, my feeling is, it was more important to me than it was to my daughter coming along because she didn’t know that you—you have just had smaller groups, which is all right I guess. You just didn’t know everybody, it was impossible. It was just a pretty special time.
MF: Oh, I’m sure it was. Oh well, thank you so much.
HW: You’re welcome. I just feel like I haven’t maybe given you what you would like. [chuckles]
MF: Oh, you’ve—
[End of Interview]