Oral history interview with Denise DiBetta Mathis Champion, 2014

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WOMEN VETERANS HISTORICAL PROJECT
ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION
INTERVIEWEE: Denise DiBetta Mathis Champion
INTERVIEWER: Therese Strohmer
DATE: December 9, 2014
[Begin Interview]
TS: Today is December 9, 2014. This is Therese Strohmer. I'm at the home of Denise Champion in Greensboro, North Carolina, to conduct an oral history interview for the Women Veterans Historical collection at The University of North Carolina of Greensboro [University of North Carolina at Greensboro]. Denise, could you state your name the way you would like it to read on your collection?
DC: Denise DiBetta Mathis Champion.
TS: Okay. Well, Denise, thank you for letting me come and talk with you today. Let's start out by having you tell me a little bit about when you were born and where you're from.
DC: I was born May 8, 1953. I'm from Los Angeles, California.
TS: Now, when you say you're from Los Angeles, we think of, like, a big sprawling city. Was that how it was for you then?
DC: It was—Oh yes.
TS: What was it like growing up? What part of Los Angeles did you live in?
DC: It was Los Angeles, proper [unclear].
[Speaking Simultaneously]
TS: Yeah?
DC: Because my father was in the—was a police officer, and they had to live in the same community they serve.
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TS: Oh, I see, okay.
DC: So.
TS: So he was a Los Angeles police officer.
DC: Yes.
TS: Did you have and brother or sisters?
DC: One brother.
TS: Yeah. Now, what was that like? What'd your mom do?
DC: Housewife.
TS: Yeah. So she worked really hard.
DC: [chuckles]
TS: Yes. I'm sure she did.
DC: Okay.
[Speaking Simultaneously]
TS: So you grew in the city. What kind of things did you—[coughs] Excuse me—What was it like growing up? So you were born in '53 so you grew up, kind of, in the sixties.
DC: Right, I was quiet and shy and introverted, and I had friends. I had a—Well, I had a weight issue. That kind of shaped my—
TS: Yeah, as a young girl?
DC: As a young—Yeah, and adolescent, and I did have to lose the weight to join, so that was—
TS: Did you?
[Speaking Simultaneously]
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DC: —an incentive. When that time came about to join I had to get serious and be more physically fit.
TS: So when you say that you were more introverted, then, as young girl, did you do a lot of reading or—How did you occupy most of your time?
DC: Well, I did have friends, but—I guess—it is bad to say television. I didn't—I just—
TS: It is not bad to say. It's fine.
DC: [chuckles] I just—
TS: What kind of shows did you like?
DC: I don't even—Well, like, Bonanza, things like—
TS: That is a great show. What you're talking about. I think that's a classic, isn't it?
DC: S—And then the—I went to junior college, and I didn't—and I finished that. I didn't know what I—
TS: Don't go so far ahead. I'm going to get back in your childhood a little bit.
DC: Okay.
[Speaking Simultaneously]
TS: So you're in—So tell me a little bit— because in Los Angeles, I don't have a lot of people from that city that we've ever talked. [to] And you're growing up in a different kind of culture than some people are used to.
DC: Yes.
TS: Did you get out in the city and see cultural events or do anything like that?
DC: Yeah, movies. When movies would come out they'd be in these big theatres and there'd be big premieres and—
TS: Did you go to some of those?
DC: Yes.
TS: Was that kind of neat?
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DC: Yeah.
TS: Did you get to see the movie stars?
DC: Yeah, I saw—
[Speaking Simultaneously]
TS: Oh, you did? Neat.
DC: Yeah. At one point, at little later when I was a teenager, we lived in Encino where there's a lot of—Michael Jackson lived down the street. I did see Michael Jackson. There's a grocery store—
TS: Right.
DC: —down the hill. Gelson's [supermarket], it's—I am sure.
TS: Gelson's, I've never heard of it.
DC: [unclear] premier, it's like Harris Teeter; a little upgrade—
TS: Oh, okay.
DC: —store, and I saw plenty there.
TS: Yeah? Now, did they come with an entourage or were they just by themselves?
DC: No, he was twelve, he was on his bike.
TS: He was twelve? Oh, right, because he would have been a lot younger.
DC: Yeah.
[Speaking Simultaneously]
TS: But you guys are, like, not too far apart in age?
DC: Yeah, he was fifty when he passed. Yeah, we're not far apart. I was eighteen so he was nineteen [twelve—DC corrected later].
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TS: Like six years younger.
DC: A little bit more.
TS: So did that seem like a normal thing to see stars.
DC: Yes.
[Speaking Simultaneously]
TS: Yeah? Growing up in that area, in that culture.
DC: Yes, and I got to see shoots—them shooting television and movies.
TS: Oh, the movie—
DC: Sets.
[Speaking Simultaneously]
TS: —sets.
DC: Yeah
TS: Did you actually get to walk around in any of them or see them in action?
DC: Universal [Studios Hollywood] had just started up and we went to Universal [unclear]—
TS: So could you watch things going on?
DC: Yes, and you could always get tickets; you could get in to see the shows.
TS: Oh, you could?
DC: Yes, and you would—one time they had—Of course, when I went they had—they would rate the shows. They would bring the shows out and bring an audience in and you could rate how you liked seeing that show.
TS: Was that, like, a TV show?
DC: Yeah, I don't remember what it was.
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TS: Yeah?
DC: But—Yeah, and the ocean with the surfing and all the Beach Boy [pop musical group The Beach Boys] stuff.
TS: Yeah
DC: So it was different.
TS: Yeah, it is different. It's different from the—what I grew up in for sure. We didn't have that kind of stimuli, I guess you want to say.
DC: [chuckles].
TS: So you did a lot more things like that, right?
DC: Yes.
TS: And maybe not so much outdoorsy things like somebody who might have grew up on a farm or something, right?
DC: Right.
TS: Did you do—Were you in any activities?
DC: Girl Scouts; [unclear] Girl Scout.
TS: Did you guys go camping or anything like that?
DC: No, I went to the camp—like, summer camp.
TS: Yeah.
DC: My dad camped with my brother. My dad was a big fisherman and he—
TS: Where'd go? Did he take you fishing?
DC: The Saharas [correction: Sierra Nevada]. No, I didn't do that.
TS: No? Now, is your brother older or younger?
DC: He's older.
TS: He's older?
DC: He's five years older. 7
TS: Okay. Well, neat. Now—let's see—when you were ten, John F. [Fitzgerald] Kennedy would have been assassinated.
DC: Yes.
TS: Do you remember that at all?
DC: I was in school, but I don't remember what—if that they sent us home, I don't remember, but I know I was in school. I think they announced it, but I don't remember. I remember the riots—the Watts riots.
[The Watts riots occurred from 11-17 August 1965, and were sparked when a black motorist was arrested for drunk driving. A minor roadside argument broke out, escalated into a fight, and the community reacted in outrage by looting and committing arson against businesses, especially those that were white-owned. The riots resulted in thirty-four deaths and over $40 million in property damage]
TS: Oh, right, '67, '68, somewhere in there.
DC: Yeah.
TS: What do you remember about that?
DC: It was scary.
[Speaking Simultaneously]
TS: Well, your dad's a police officer, too, right?
DC: Well, he got out in '64.
TS: Okay.
DC: He was—did the Dragnet [television series]. They used his stories for the show Dragnet. He knew Jack Webb.
TS: Oh, really?
DC: Yeah, they used his cases, I mean, for the scripts. So—And then he worked for [Ronald Wilson] Reagan. He met two presidents. He worked for—Then my dad went from the police force after he retired and worked for the State of California for the Department of Real Estate, and he worked with Reagan when he was governor. 8
TS: Oh nice. Right, and then you said something about when [Richard Milhous] Nixon was in town, for—when he was Vice President. He got into detail of the work with the secret service. [My father was assigned to Vice President Nixon’s Secret Service detail—DC added later].
[Speaking Simultaneously]
DC: Secret Service. He drove Nixon in the Rose Parade when he was the grand marshal.
TS: Right, grand marshal; that's the word I'm looking for.
[Speaking Simultaneously]
DC: When they used grand marshals. When they show that you can see my dad [unclear].
TS: Neat. What's your dad's name?
DC: John.
TS: Now, did you get to have any benefits from that, because of your dad's contact with any of that?
DC: I didn't—No. If I would have stayed and hadn't gone in the service my dad probably would have helped me with my future employment, but—I did ride, though, in a squad car with the siren when I had appendicitis.
TS: Yeah?
DC: My dad drove in the squad car.
TS: Took you to the hospital?
DC: Yes. [chuckles]
TS: So you got a direct route there.
DC: Yeah.
TS: Special treatment.
DC: Yeah. 9
TS: How old were you when that happened?
DC: Seven.
TS: Seven?
DC: I was really young
TS: Neat. Now, did you like school?
DC: I was alright. I wasn't—I'm not into academics.
TS: No?
DC: No.
TS: Was there any particular teacher that you liked, or class that you enjoyed?
DC: No, I just wasn't—[chuckles]
TS: No? So as a young girl, then, growing up in this kind of environment, did you have an idea about what you wanted to do in your future? Not necessarily what you wanted to be when you grew up, but—like, did you—were expected to go to college? Did you have, kind of, an idea for a job, or anything like that?
DC: No, I didn't know what—I was kind of tripping[?] on—not floundering but of kind of not knowing—
[Speaking Simultaneously]
TS: Just not really—You didn't have a direction that you wanted to go in.
DC: No, I had no—[both chuckle]
TS: So there weren't any, like, guidance counselors in school.
DC: I don't remember there being counselors in school. The last—My senior year in high school I had to move. That was kind of—
TS: Yeah. What year did you graduate from high school?
DC: [Nineteen] seventy-one. 10
TS: Seventy-one. So you actually did grow up in a lot of turmoil in that area. What did you think of the race relations and things like that? Did you have any opinions as a young person?
DC: Well, that was before they bused—we were totally segregated.
TS: In the schooling system?
DC: Yeah.
[Speaking Simultaneously]
DC: Yes, so I was—I hadn't grown up with African-Americans. They were literally on the other side of the tracks.
TS: We don't often thinking about that—segregation being in California. Like, now, here we are in North Carolina, it's more visible in the history but not so much in the history of California.
DC: Right.
TS: Until the riots, I guess.
DC: Yeah. I don't even know what started it, but then they [African-Americans] started busing in my senior year.
TS: Is that why you had to go a different school?
DC: No, my dad, his career path took us to Sacramento. But that—there, I was in Inglewood—I went to a school in Inglewood—and that—they started busing my senior year, and the yearbooks said "The Times They Are A-Changin.'" It was black and white.
TS: Oh, okay.
DC: Black cover with white lettering.
TS: So you did have an integrated school your senior year?
DC: Not—No, because I had left.
TS: Oh, I see.
DC: My old school—
TS: Your old school, they're the ones who had the [unclear]. 11
DC: [unclear] up to North Sacramento—
TS: There weren't any—
DC: No.
TS: No? I see.
DC: I don't why it started in Southern California—
TS: Yeah.
DC: —and ended up in Northern California.
TS: Well, then, you also—we also had—So [Dr.] Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated in '68 and [New York senator] Robert F. Kennedy, he was assassinated. Do you have any memories of those events?
DC: I saw Kennedy on TV that day that happened.
TS: Oh, you were watching TV that day of the convention?
DC: Yes. [unclear]
[Speaking Simultaneously]
TS: Did you have any feeling about it?
DC: Because we're Republicans, I wasn't into the—all that. All that—They were all Democrats. I don't know, I was always—[chuckles] Our family is staunch Republican family.
TS: Yeah. So it didn't seem to affect you as much as maybe someone who was really connected emotionally—
DC: Right.
TS: —to that. I see. Well, you also had the counter culture going on, right, with hippies and the drug culture.
DC: Yes, and I was far from that.
TS: Were you? 12
DC: I wasn't even [unclear].
TS: You were like the straight and narrow.
DC: That's what I was. [both chuckle] That's what I was.
[Speaking Simultaneously]
TS: So what did you think about of all of that? Did you have—I mean, so if you—So you came from, like, kind of a conservative background, would you say?
DC: Yes.
TS: Did you have any views about the people that were doing those kind of things? Not really?
DC: I wasn't into it and I didn't think that was the right thing to do.
TS: So you just stayed away from it.
DC: Yeah.
TS: I see.
DC: [chuckles]
TS: So when you did grad—high school—When you graduated from high school—you said you graduated in '70—
DC: One.
TS: Seventy-one.
DC: Yes.
TS: And so, what did you do after high school? This where you went to the community college?
DC: I went to community college there, and then my dad moved again and we moved back to Southern California, Encino, and I went—finished up community college there in Los Angeles Community College.
TS: What were you studying when you were there? 13
DC: Home economics. Women weren't really into career things.
TS: But '71, and that era.
DC: Yeah, starting to—
[Speaking Simultaneously]
TS: I mean, that's when it started to come in.
DC: Yes, feminists.
TS: Did that inspire you at all in any way?
DC: No, I don't really—What inspired me to join the service was I could be on my own, be self-sufficient, and I would have room and board, and travel and meet other people and get out of my shell.
TS: What did you do? How did it come about that you decided to join the navy?
DC: Oh, my dad suggested it and then—
TS: Did he?
DC: Yes.
TS: And he had been in the navy you said.
DC: [United States] Coast Guard.
TS: Oh, I'm sorry. Right, the Coast Guard.
DC: Yeah, so he had a military background. He joined when Pearl Harbor—when they attacked us he joined, like a bunch of his generation did.
TS: He saw it as service and duty sort of thing?
DC: Yes.
TS: So did he see that you were—you were kind of, like, in this place where you weren't sure what to do?
DC: Right. 14
TS: And that maybe you would get some kind of structure.
DC: Yeah, or pick a career, or you don't know what you want to do.
TS: Now, did he say, "Check out the navy," or how did that—
DC: I don't know. Well, I think to myself—I'm thinking, "Well, the [U.S.] Army, you got to march. And I don't—[U.S.] Air Force is flying, [U.S] Marine [Corps], that's too much—
TS: Right.
DC: —oohrah for me, but"—So navy's just—
TS: It seemed like the most—easiest route you could take.
[Speaking Simultaneously]
DC: I could handle most of that.
TS: Yeah. Do you remember talking with the recruiters at that time?
DC: I did, but I don't remember. I just went in there and—Okay, I remember, like, on the—there's a cash program where you join and then when you're—when there's an opening or something like that then I could be—go ahead and—
TS: Like a delayed entry sort of.
DC: Yeah, I had the delayed entry.
TS: Okay, so you—Did you pick a job that you wanted to do at the time? You did, like, testing?
DC: I must have. Well, I went in as a—I went in as a—Well, I thought—
TS: You had some college.
DC: Yeah, I had some college [unclear]—
TS: They gave you a stripe or something.
DC: Yeah, I think it was—E2 I guess I had, because they had one or two stripes. So yeah, that was a little bit helpful. And then I remember when we were enlisted we were on Wilshire 15
Boulevard, it's kind of right there in Hollywood, and it's kind of in this dark crummy room.
TS: Oh yeah?
DC: When you had the physical you're all sitting there in your underwear. I remember that.
TS: Not the most pleasant thing in the world.
DC: [chuckles] No, but I knew I had the weight licked because I knew I had to get busy.
TS: Oh, what did you do to get in shape then? What kind of things did you do get ready for that?
DC: Weight watchers—
TS: Oh, okay.
DC: —when it had just started.
TS: So you just followed that? Did you do any kind of exercise?
DC: No.
TS: [chuckles]
DC: That was to come.
TS: When you went into basic training?
DC: Yeah.
TS: So your dad sounds like he supported you. How about your mom?
DC: Yeah.
TS: Yeah? And your brother?
DC: My brother, he—we're not that close.
TS: He was just doing is own thing.
DC: Yeah. He—Well, he was—couldn't pass the physical. So my dad tried to get him in the—I forget which academy. I don't know if it was the naval academy, but he didn't pass the physical.
[Speaking Simultaneously].
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TS: The physical. I see. What about your friends? What did they think about you joining the navy?
DC: One, to this day, can't be—couldn't see me doing that. [unclear] Plus at work—when I'm at work—they cannot picture me—
TS: Really?
DC: Yeah, being in. I just blow them away.
TS: That's interesting.
DC: [both chuckle] Yeah.
TS: That's good.
DC: Yeah, they can't picture that.
TS: Well, you had to be motivated, especially, like you say, since you had to, kind of, lose weight and get ready; prepare for it.
DC: Yeah, so. I was scared and homesick.
TS: Yeah.
DC: I'd never been away from home.
TS: And where did the—Where did you go for your basic training?
DC: Orlando [Naval Training Center Orlando, Florida].
TS: Orlando. Why don't you tell me a little about that? What was that like? Do you remember like—Did you—You probably flew in and then—
DC: Yeah, fly in.
TS: And then took a bus probably.
DC: Took a bus. It was hot, June in Florida.
TS: Oh right, a little different from California.
DC: Yeah, humid.
TS: Yeah.
DC: My gosh, yeah. And being so tall, as I got off the bus I got in the drill line.
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TS: They picked your right out?
DC: Oh yeah. A guy standing there, going this—the thumbs.
TS: So they were picking out people who were tall for the drill team?
DC: Yeah.
TS: So what was your height at that time?
DC: I'm only 5'7''.
TS: Five [foot] seven [inches]. But everyone else is 5'1'' to 5'4'' or something maybe?
DC: Yeah, they had—Well, they had a good bunch of tall ones and a good shorter ones.
TS: Yeah.
DC: That was—And then after that it's—you're go, go, go. Your head's spinning and you get uniforms, get in line, and everything's stenciled and—on your uniforms.
TS: Had you worked in anything that regimented before? Was that like—
DC: I'm like that anyway.
TS: Are you?
DC: I'm very detail oriented, I guess.
TS: So that was probably—
DC: So I'm—It didn't bother me.
TS: Oh, good. What about—Did they yell at you then or did they have any—
DC: Not really.
TS: Not so much.
DC: But no, they didn't get in your face.
TS: So this is '76. Did they have—Was it coeducational or was it—
DC: Yeah
TS: It was? So men and women together. 18
DC: Well, we're on the same base.
TS: Okay.
DC: Training base. And it's the only base for women, at that time, for basic.
TS: The only place that women could go.
DC: Yeah, so there was men in other companies, but of course we were separated.
TS: So in your company you trained all women together.
DC: Yeah.
TS: I see, okay.
DC: Except we would see them at the meal time.
TS: Okay.
DC: But you only had fifteen minutes.
TS: To eat. [both chuckle]
DC: So nothing—
TS: So the regimentation was okay.
DC: Yeah.
TS: What about—And so, how about—you had to do some, probably, academic work. How was that?
DC: That wasn't—It was training. It wasn't that difficult.
TS: No. What about the physical exercise?
DC: I can do the PT [physical training] every morning, I can make it through that, but the obstacle course, luckily I didn't have to do that, because I didn't like that.
TS: No, you didn't? Why not?
DC: I don't know, I just walked around it and nobody said anything so—[chuckles]
TS: What do you mean you walked around it? 19
DC: [unclear] I kind of—I couldn't do some of it.
TS: You just walked by the obstacle?
DC: Yeah. I don't think—I don't think it was a bunch of days we did that.
TS: Yeah.
DC: So—But the swimming.
TS: Yeah, I was wondering—
DC: I made it.
TS: Oh good. How long—
DC: That was [unclear]—
TS: What did you have to do for the swimming?
DC: On the highest diving board with the clothes on, yeah. So that—I surprised myself. And I did that.
TS: Yeah.
DC: I jumped, and use your clothes for a floatation device.
TS: So then you have to stay in for a certain amount of time to float?
DC: Yeah, or get the shirt off up above your—above your head or something and use it for floating.
TS: Oh, okay. I've never had to do anything like that so I don't know what that would be like, but wow.
DC: [chuckles]
TS: So you were a little a bit afraid of that.
DC: Yeah.
TS: Now, how was the drill team?
DC: There was one—Back up.
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TS: Okay.
DC: There was one thing, the running. I forgot. The running. We had to a run two-mile and I missed it the first time, and he said if I didn't do it the second time, I'd be out.
TS: Oh.
DC: And he—I did. But the trainer guy, whatever there was, he was—he ran with me—
TS: To keep you on pace.
[Speaking Simultaneously]
DC: —and pushed me. Yeah, he did, yeah.
TS: That was good.
DC: I don't know who that person was, but yeah.
TS: They helped you through it.
DC: Yeah, I had to come back to all the other girls and they were happy—
TS: Yeah.
DC: —because I made it.
TS: Well, good.
DC: [unclear] That was another challenge.
TS: So the swimming and the running was the most difficult, physically, that you had to do.
[Speaking Simultaneously]
DC: Running, yeah.
TS: Okay. So how did you like the drill team? Was that—
DC: That was fine. I don't remember how—how much drilling—how much training we had, but it was—I could handle that too; the marching and the—
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TS: Did you have to handle, like, a weapon of any sort?
DC: We had weapons training one day, too.
TS: Okay.
DC: Take it apart and shoot it and put it back together. Just one time though.
TS: Yeah? It wasn't a big deal?
DC: No.
TS: So you were telling me before we started how—you showed me some pictures—that your parents came from California to Florida to see you graduate. I bet they were excited to see you.
DC: Yeah, I guess especially my dad, because his son didn't—
TS: Oh, now he's got a daughter that made it through.
DC: Yeah. [chuckles]
TS: Aww.
DC: Yeah, we got an award; they came the furthest to see their recruit graduate.
TS: Nice. Nice. So you were—Were you ready—Did you know where you were going to go—be stationed after that, or when did that come about—did that happen?
DC: Soon after.
TS: Yeah.
DC: I don't remember what the time period was, but—I don't—I'm thinking I got to go home for a little bit and then go there. I can't remember. They might have drove out there. I think they might have drove me there.
TS: Back to California, your parents?
DC: No. They went ahead and went back.
TS: Okay.
DC: But I think I got to go home since I was heading that way and from there—heading that way. So I think I got to go.
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TS: Had a short period of leave.
DC: Yeah, I think we had some leave. And we did—we went to Disney World there in Orlando.
TS: Oh, okay.
[Speaking Simultaneously]
DC: [They gave us?] a treat.
TS: Yeah?
DC: We all went to [Walt] Disney World.
TS: Well, you had Disneyland in California.
DC: Yeah, I didn't care, I've been to Disneyland.
TS: Oh, well how were they different?
[Speaking Simultaneously]
DC: I [grew up?] at Disneyland. I don't even know.
TS: [chuckles] Yeah.
DC: I don't—Other than the—California, it's more original—it was original of course and it was—had some age on it, and everything was new. I think they had just opened it up.
TS: Oh, at Disney World, maybe.
DC: Yes, so it was brand new.
TS: So it was a shiny penny, sort of thing. [both chuckle]
DC: Yeah
TS: Nice. Now, when you went to your training, did you do that at the base there at the naval station that you went to for your job, or was it on the job training? How did you get trained for your job that you did in the navy?
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DC: That's on the job.
TS: On the job training?
DC: Yeah, they assigned me.
TS: Where did they send you to?
DC: Well, that's where—The only training I had was at the NAS [Naval Air Station] Lemoore, California.
TS: Lemoore, California.
DC: Yeah, I didn't have any extra training.
TS: Okay.
DC: Just went right to the base I was assigned.
TS: And then what was your job assignment there?
DC: I was in the administration building and officer personnel—
TS: Oh, okay.
DC: —on the second floor, and then the enlisted personnel is on the bottom.
TS: And you were—Which floor—You were on—
DC: The second.
TS: You were on the second floor?
DC: Officer personnel [DC clarified later].
TS: So was that—what did you think now? You're out of training, you're out of basic—Well, you're still training. What was it like?
DC: It was great. I was on my own, I lived in the barracks and had a roommate. I feel more grown up, and I was self-sufficient and I had a real job and I real—because I was learning skills.
TS: Money coming in.
DC: Yeah, and that was—[both chuckle]
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TS: That's always nice.
DC: Yeah. I got—My folks gave me their car; I got some wheels—
TS: Oh, nice.
DC: —some wheels there on the base, and a lot of people didn't have it. And there was one person on the base had the same car I did.
TS: Oh, yeah. What kind of car did you have?
DC: It was a Chevy Malibu.
TS: Those are nice cars.
DC: It must have been a '70—I think it was like a '71.
TS: Yeah.
DC: And we [unclear] the same color; we had an orange body and a white vinyl top. [chuckles]. We both crossed paths, and it was funny.
TS: The same car.
[Speaking Simultaneously]
DC: The same car; orange body. You don't see a lot of orange bodies—
TS: No, you don't.
DC: —and white vinyl tops.
[Speaking Simultaneously]
TS: That's cool. That's neat. So you're enjoying yourself?
DC: Yes.
TS: Can you describe a typical day at work? Like, what—
DC: I would walk.
25
TS: Okay.
DC: I would walk to work. And it wasn't real busy and I met civilians there. I met a lot of nice people. I had my desk and I had my supervisor, which was a military woman. I had two women both times. They would have—People would rotate. The military would rotate—
TS: Get out of their—
DC: Right.
TS: —duty station.
DC: So I had two—two supervisors, female, which was probably unusual. And the second one I had, [Ensign Porter?], and I would help her—she'd need errands run, or I—She was real nice to me, and I did things for her. Then there was a civilian in the office. Just the three of us.
TS: So it was a small office.
DC: Yeah.
TS: Did you work with men at all?
DC: Yeah, next door was the JAG [Judge Advocate General] office, and then the captain of the base was down the hall, and went he went out to lunch hour we would have to go relieve his secretary for lunch.
TS: Oh, okay. So she could go take lunch?
DC: Yes. So I got to sit in the commanding officer's reception—
TS: Chair?
DC: Well, the secretary's chair.
TS: [chuckles]
DC: His office was right behind us [his secretary—DC clarified later]. She had her area and he was in the room behind her.
TS: Oh, okay.
DC: Yeah, I got to look over at the window and look at the base.
TS: They had a good view?
26
DC: Yes. [both chuckle] A good view. Yeah, I remember that.
TS: Good real estate for the commander.
DC: Oh yeah.
TS: Did you have to do any kind of PT or anything once you were in the regular navy?
DC: No, the only I had to do was I had watch; we had to rotate, take turns watching in the barracks.
TS: How often did you have to do something like that?
DC: Oh gosh.
TS: Like, quarterly, maybe, or something?
DC: Yeah, I don't remember, but it was maybe once a month.
TS: Okay.
DC: So that was a little—
TS: What did you have to do on that kind of duty?
DC: We'd have station at the bar—The women's barracks would have guard duty there.
TS: What would you do?
DC: You ring in—When people came you couldn't just go up to the room so whoever was there, you would ring them—you call the room and they say yes, no, and they say go ahead and go up, and they'd give permission.
TS: Any visitors—Could males visit at the time?
DC: Yeah.
TS: I see.
DC: And that was a little [both chuckle] dicey area.
TS: Is it—Was it?
DC: Yeah.
TS: So what was it like living in the barracks? Was it all women in the barracks— 27
DC: Yes.
TS: —in that particular—
DC: Yes.
TS: It wasn't coeducational or co [unclear]?
DC: No, they didn't have [males—DC clarified later]—I don't know if they have now but—They do? That's maybe more problematic.
TS: [chuckles].
DC: No, back them it was all men barracks and the one woman's barracks. I think there was a time limit, like ten o'clock they had to—
TS: Oh, curfew.
DC: Yeah, there was a curfew but—
TS: For visitation?
DC: Right.
TS: Okay. Did you have any lights out kind of time or anything like that?
DC: I don't remember that.
TS: What was barracks living like, then? I mean, was—
DC: I liked it. There was—
TS: You had a roommate?
DC: Yeah, the bed was a mattress, I guess like a prison bed; the spring in the mattress. [chuckles] And metal. Yeah, one roommate, and we had—it was a good sized room and I liked it. Of course, you have to keep it clean; the cleaning part—the inspection.
TS: Oh, you still got inspected.
DC: Yes, and that's one thing I did, when the troops [were—DC clarified later] inspected, I would go with the captain, behind him with the clipboard, and write down all the infractions or however you say that. I did that a few times.
28
TS: Did they have what—in—what we call, like, the health, welfare, and moral inspections, like, at odd hours of the night where they would rouse you and—
DC: No.
TS: Never had anything like that?
DC: Boot camp they did.
TS: But not at—Once you were stationed at Lemoore?
DC: No.
TS: Did they ever do any random pee tests [urine testing for illegal drug use] in the middle of the night? Nothing like that?
DC: No.
TS: No?
DC: I didn't hear about drugs.
TS: No?
DC: I guess [unclear]—
TS: Really, in the '70s? [chuckles]
DC: I know, I—No.
TS: Yeah? [chuckles].
DC: I don't know. I guess it just—
TS: They probably knew that you weren't going to have anything to do with them. [both laugh]
DC: No, I don't know. They didn't have drug testing.
TS: No?
DC: No.
TS: So you were in from '76-'80 right?
DC: Yes. 29
TS: It was after that that they started more of the drug testing I think. Was there anything in particular that you really enjoyed about your job?
DC: Well, you met people, the officers; it's constant with personnel coming and going so. And we—Our base was a naval [air station—DC corrected later] so we had the navy, and the air squadrons, we supported the ships with the—What do you call them?—the ships with the [airplanes—DC added later]—
TS: The carriers?
DC: Yeah, with [unclear] aircraft.
TS: Okay, aircraft carriers.
DC: We supported the aircraft carriers.
TS: Was it fairly a good size base?
DC: It wasn't huge.
TS: Okay. I'll have go look up and see what—see what that—the sizes of that. Because, as I said, for some reason that name rings a bell, I know somebody else—
DC: Really?
TS: —had gone there. Now, what kind of things did you do, then, on your time off?
DC: The enlisted club.
TS: What was that like?
DC: That was fun; did a little dancing. [chuckles]
TS: Oh, yeah? Did they have, like, a DJ or—
DC: No, just—
TS: —just a juke box?
DC: —recorded—Yeah, juke box.
TS: Yeah. What kind of music were you listening to?
DC: Oh, that disco stuff.
30
TS: Oh yeah? So they had the lights and the disco ball? And everything?
DC: [chuckles] Yeah, I did that.
TS: Now, did you do anything—because I know usually there's, like, a movie theatre and a bowling alley, stuff like that, on base.
DC: I don't remember. No. I could go home to see my parents. But I didn't really—I'd go out into, like, Fresno—there was a bigger town—and go shopping.
TS: Did you do any trips, traveling around? Did you take—
DC: No, I had been to Europe. I forgot to mention that I had been to Europe when I was eighteen after I graduated high school.
TS: Oh, you had? Where did you go?
DC: London and Paris and Austria and Italy.
TS: Now, what was that part of? Did you just go on your own?
DC: Student trip studying—Student group studying, stayed[?] at the universities.
TS: Was that part of the community college?
DC: I don't know. It was a program after high school—It came from high school—
TS: Okay.
DC: —that it was a student studying group going to Europe, and I signed up.
[Speaking Simultaneously]
TS: How long were you there? Yeah, you just—you totally didn't mention that.
DC: Yeah, I'm—This is a few years back.
TS: Sure. [chuckles]
DC: It's hard to—
TS: So this was like '72?
DC: Yeah. 31
TS: Something like that?
DC: Oh, that was wonderful, that was—I saw the Eiffel Tower [Paris] and the Colosseum [Italy] and Buckingham Palace [England] and the birth—Blenheim [Palace], the birthplace of [Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-] Churchill. Yeah, that was a great experience. I still—I talk about it today.
TS: How long did you get to travel?
DC: I think it was, like, two weeks.
TS: Oh, nice.
DC: Yeah, it was great.
TS: So you got all your traveling done when you were eighteen? [chuckles]
DC: I like to travel but—
TS: Yeah?
DC: —I haven't done a lot of it, so. I've travelled around, a little bit, the United States, mainly from—I've lived in six different states. From one marriage—The first marriage was—he was from Arkansas. I met him in the service.
TS: Did you meet him at Lemoore?
DC: Yeah. He had got off—had just come off of a ship. After two years I'd been there, and he came off of the [USS] Saratoga and I met him; he was in enlisted personnel. And then when we got out of the service, he's from Arkansas, so I went right to Arkansas, and I haven't been back. I've been here, there, and everywhere.
TS: [chuckles].
DC: Now North Carolina, which I never even heard of Greensboro.
TS: No?
DC: No. [both chuckle]
TS: During the time that you were in the service, then, was there anything after basic training that was difficult physically or emotionally for you?
32
DC: No, it was a good plus to be in—when you got out to use the military as a good reference or an experience, so that was always a feather in your cap, and that military training experience. I just worked, and then had my daughter, and then—
TS: That was while you were in or after you got out?
DC: Oh, after I got out I had her.
TS: Before you got out, did you—was there anybody that—in the service that was a good role model or mentor for you while you were working?
DC: Oh, my last supervisor, of course she wasn't too happy that—I guess she was more career oriented and wasn't too thrilled.
TS: That you were going to get out?
DC: Yeah.
TS: So she—
DC: I got married.
TS: Oh, I see, okay.
DC: She wasn't—
TS: Well, did you ever face any discrimination; gender discrimination, sexual harassment or anything like that?
DC: No.
TS: Nothing like that?
DC: No.
TS: Where you aware of anybody that faced anything like that at the time?
DC: No, that's why I'm surprised—Well, I guess women are more—they're on ships now, they're in combat more, they're more entrenched.
TS: More integrated with men—
DC: Right.
TS: —in more non-traditional jobs.
33
DC: Yeah, I think that's why. Because I know my friend—my best girlfriend—her husband was in the navy, too, and he'd be on the ships and you come off and the women, most would be pregnant. I'm sure that's not a good thing. And submarines. I guess they can—
TS: Yeah, I think they're just starting that, to going on submarines.
DC: Yeah, so.
TS: Well, do you think there's—there are any jobs that women shouldn't do in the military?
DC: Well, they won't be in combat. I don't think—I know—I don't think that would be a good idea, but I know it's going to—didn't that pass, that—
TS: Well, they repealed the restriction for that, I think in 2012, and they are working on seeing how the training goes and things. But what if women could do it? What do you think the obstacles are?
DC: I don't think—I don't know. Women, I don't think they could ever be that strong. They don't have the upper arm—the carrying of the weapon. I don't—I don't think that would be a good idea.
TS: You mean for in the infantry or something? Is that what you mean?
DC: Yeah.
TS: Yeah.
DC: Yeah, I mean I can see on the ship, go ahead. We couldn't—I couldn't be on a ship.
TS: Why not?
DC: Then they didn't allow women on ships.
TS: Oh, I see, okay.
DC: So—
TS: Did you want to go on a ship?
DC: No, I don't think—I probably would have had to, because the next duty you have to go overseas, you do—I don't know what you call it but you do overseas and then you come back to the States.
TS: Oh, okay.
DC: Got to swap it out. So probably—Excuse me. 34
TS: That's okay.
[Speaking Simultaneously]
DC: You don't want to—Well, you get your choice of three things, but they have to have a spot, so I don't know what choices—My choices might have been limited, I don't know. You have to have a—What do they call it, a billet?
TS: Right, a billet; opening for that particular job—
DC: Right, so.
TS: —and your rank and everything. Yeah.
DC: So that was tricky, trying to do that.
TS: Well, had you—Is that some of the paperwork that you had to do? What kind of paperwork did you do?
DC: No, I just would check the office of personnel, check them in at the base, and then they had—I guess it's TDY.
TS: Temporary duty?
DC: Yeah, when they had those orders I'd type up those orders.
TS: Okay.
DC: Yeah. It wasn't a really busy place [both chuckle] so—at that particular job.
TS: At that time.
DC: Yeah, I guess.
TS: Well, it sounds like a good spot for you though.
DC: Yeah.
TS: Sounds like it was a really good time for you to be in and there.
DC: Yes.
TS: Did you ever think of staying in longer than your enlistment? 35
DC: Well, I couldn't make rate [earn a promotion]. It was very difficult; you had to ace the test. When it came to that point I was taking the test and you had to ace it because—
TS: Because there was a lot women in this particular field?
DC: I don't know. One of the chief petty officers told me to make E3 [seaman] you just have to sign your name and spell your name right. And then after that you have to ace it, and I—that's when I—[chuckles] I am not an academic person.
TS: Yeah.
DC: I was not acing the test and I thought, "Well—"
TS: You were just worried about getting promoted because of that?
DC: Yeah, how would I ever—I don't know how I would ever get promoted, and then I was married and then—
TS: For a couple years, you said, right?
DC: For a couple of years, yeah; two years where I was married. Single two years, and then the last two years I was married, then we move off base.
TS: How was that different for you?
DC: It was okay, we had a nice apartment. It was—We worked in the same place, so it worked out.
TS: Like, at the same time, you drove together to work and things like that?
DC: Yes.
TS: Did you get, like, off-base quarters, or an allotment or something?
DC: I don't know if we did or not. I can't remember. Maybe we had an apartment, I don't know. We didn't get—We weren't on the base—
TS: Not base housing?
DC: We didn't have base housing. I think that was more for families; that was at a premium. I don't think so. So—And then wanting to have a family, that wasn't conducive to military life.
TS: Why not?
36
DC: Moving around; moving, moving. So as it happened that marriage was dissolved and I'd keep on moving, moving. [both chuckle]
TS: Just like you would've been, right?
DC: Yeah, just like I would've been. Isn't that funny? And how I ended up here was because of my husband; first one. He was from—Well, he was from Arkansas, like I said, and he found work in Winston-Salem. I ended up coming out here. Here I am in Cali—Well, I was in Las Vegas at the time; lived there for a while. Here I'm coming across the country again so my daughter could come see her dad and be with him for a while.
TS: So you just stayed here?
[Speaking Simultaneously]
DC: I [unclear] stop—Yeah, I've been here twenty years.
TS: Yeah?
DC: I brought her out when she was twelve. This is the longest I've been in any place.
TS: Is it, yeah?
DC: Yeah.
TS: So you're—Up until you moved here then you hit a number of places that you were at.
DC: Yes.
TS: So the time period that you were in the service, in the navy, '76 to '80, that's the whole time—so you had mentioned you were a Republican. So Democratic president was [James Earl] Jimmy Carter [Jr]. Did you have any thoughts about him and his presidency? Because we had the Iran-contra affair—not the Iran-contra, I'm sorry, the [Iran] hostage crisis.
DC: That was awful. I wasn't really into politics. Now, I am now.
TS: Yeah?
DC: I guess when you're older things—
TS: Seem more relative?
DC: Yeah. And it's upsetting now, what's happening in the world now, so. 37
TS: So you pay more attention to what's going on?
DC: Yeah.
TS: But at that time you were kind of apolitical.
DC: Yeah.
TS: Not really—Yeah. So you were—I'm trying to remember what else happened in that era. Well, you were out when [President Ronald Wilson] Reagan was shot.
DC: Yeah, he was—
TS: You had gotten out by then. What do you—So the time period that you were in is so interesting, because you have all this—when we look at history we see—so the counter-culture, the drug culture, the women's movement, the Civil Rights movement as—and the—kind of the violence that occurred in the sixties.
DC: Vietnam. Vietnam, took my generation out.
[Speaking Simultaneously]
TS: Yeah.
DC: Yeah. And I couldn't—Maybe that's why everybody—of the men I meet, were always younger than me. I don't know if that made a difference. That seems weird. Is that weird?
TS: No.
DC: Because everybody my age was—they were in the war. And the few people—the men I meet now, and they all have, like, flashbacks. It's really—did a trick.
TS: Yeah. Did you know any of your classmates that had gone to Vietnam or anything?
DC: No.
TS: What did you think about that war at the time? You had been a young—You were still a young girl; a young woman.
DC: I was out from all my friends. I was in community college, and I wasn't like—I was oblivious to it, I guess. I didn't even—
TS: Yeah. 38
DC: And then my brother, he would've but he was—what?—4-F.
[The 4-F classification in the United States' Selective Service System, identifying a person as unfit for military service]
TS: Because you said—Your dad couldn't get him to the academy because of the physical.
DC: Yes. He sure had the brains.
TS: But he just wasn't able to pass.
DC: No.
TS: So it didn't actually connect you directly—
DC: No.
TS; —so you didn't have much a connection to it?
DC: No.
TS: Did you watch any stuff on TV about it? The helicopters coming and going?
DC: I really didn't—I didn't watch it like I do now. I—Now I'm really—
TS: Paying attention.
DC: Yeah.
TS: Well, how about the idea—So a couple of things have changed, just even—We talked about the change with the women in combat. The other change that happened was, before you were in, there was no such thing as "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," but—kind of was not allowed to have homosexuals in the military, and then they had this "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and that's since been repealed. What do you think about that whole issue?
DC: Yeah, now that—there were some—It was still—It was a "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" anything when I was there, but the women were either one way [unclear]—
TS: There were some lesbians that you were aware of that were there?
DC: Yeah, and then the—they go the other way; they were promiscuous because of all the men that are there.
39
TS: Yeah?
DC: I was trying to stay in the middle [chuckles], but then I got married, so...
TS: Right, did that help anything when you got married, like, your—Because if someone said they had a boyfriend or they were married they'd pretty much—the guys left them alone.
DC: Nobody bothered me.
TS: Even before?
DC: No. Before, no. Nobody—
TS: So if you—So you're seeing this—
DC: When you're on duty at the base that's when you're seeing the barracks.
TS: How would you recognize?
DC: Well, the men—[chuckles]
TS: Oh, going into the rooms?
DC: Yeah, and [unclear]—
TS: What about with the women? I mean, was that something—
DC: I don't know. That—Women weren't—You can't tell, but that could be—that would be probably a good place for lesbians, being in the military. That's something that a lesbian would kind of drift toward, and then being all—being around females. But—
TS: Were you aware of anybody that you worked with?
DC: No, I wasn't aware of it. I was aware of the other part.
TS: The promiscuous?
DC: Yeah, that was more—
TS: Visible to you?
DC: Visible, yeah, right.
TS: What do think about that whole issue, then, of homosexuals being in the military? Was that—
40
DC: Well, they have a right. I mean, that's fine. If they don't put it upon—their ideas on someone else.
TS: But you never had that happen to you?
DC: No. Now, I have lately, at work, but not in the military.
TS: No?
DC: No.
TS: That's interesting. You have—You have this whole big cultural shift, kind of, going on now with that particular issue, with the way that you can be—And it's interesting how you frame the issue, too, because the whole framework of some opposition or negativity about women in the military, is that they were either promiscuous, as you said, or they were lesbians or—and there really was no middle road. And then here you are, trying to, like, just live your life.
DC: Yeah.
TS: And then there's—you see these other two.
DC: Yeah.
[Speaking Simultaneously].
TS: Maybe many women were—just felt like they were, like you, in the middle, in trying to live their life that way. It's just interesting though that it's come up to the surface and they're talking about it.
DC: Yeah.
TS: And the issue of sexual harassment, and actually sexual assault, has been in the news a lot lately, especially in the military now, on college campuses.
DC: Yeah. I know that's—
TS: Did you ever hear of anything like that while you working in the navy?
DC: No.
TS: What do you think about that issue? We kind of touched on a little bit where you say— because there's more women in and they're working in different kinds of jobs in close proximity to the men. 41
DC: You think they'd be more responsible. The drinking, of course there's a lot of alcohol involved.
TS: Who would be more responsible?
DC: The women. All the drinking on college campuses. You think they'd be a little more responsible.
TS: Yeah.
DC: And then in the service there's a lot of drinking too. But I wasn't raised—I was pretty straight laced, so I—[chuckles]
TS: Yeah.
DC: I didn't have to—I didn't have those challenges of—
TS: You didn't have to navigate through those kind of issues?
DC: Right, and being introverted, and I was more aware of my—If it was late at night, I wouldn't walk out and—
TS: Right, your father was a police officer in Los Angeles, [chuckles] so I'm sure he warned you.
DC: Yeah.
TS: He probably instilled some of those fears in you about being out or drinking.
[Speaking Simultaneously]
DC: Yeah. I didn't—It didn't even cross my mind. I don't do it. I didn't even—
TS: I guess that's the same—like, when we were talking about the drug culture, it's just not—it's not on your radar at all.
DC: No. When it was swirling around me, like in the time.
[Speaking Simultaneously]
TS: Just oblivious. 42
DC: Yeah.
TS: Yeah, because it's not anything that you're a part of, right?
DC: No.
TS: That's interesting. Well, do you think your life is any different because you joined the navy?
DC: I think it's—How do I say this? The life experience is great and it helped me be independent, and it helps to be a part of something that's great, and it's so respected. And then I can still—I'm using the benefits. I can use the VA [Veterans Administration] benefits.
TS: You had said how you did use it. What was it that you did for the GI Bill? You had done—
DC: To educate; I went to night school. I almost had my—a Bachelors degree.
TS: When—Did you do that after you got out or did you—
DC: No, I did that while I was in.
TS: Partially while you—All the time while you were in?
DC: Yes.
TS: Okay.
DC: A little bit. When I got out, no; it was all while I was in. I went to night school and I used up—I used the GI Bill. I'd sign those checks. They'd come in.
TS: [chuckles]
DC: I remember signing those checks—
TS: And did you—
DC: [unclear] pretty much.
TS: And then you said you used the mortgage part to buy your first house, is that right?
DC: Yes, my first house. Yes, and I can still use it again.
TS: Do you plan on using anything—Have you ever used the VA services or— 43
DC: I plan to if I—So I'm in between; I'm not retirement age so that gap if I quit my job—The medical—I can get the medical until I reach retirement age. That's a big help.
TS: Yeah
DC: Because I was thinking of leaving my job and I'm not going to have my medical covered.
TS: That would be a way to cover that.
DC: Yeah, and I heard good things about it; the VA around this—around Greensboro, Winston[-Salem], so.
TS: Well, that's good, that's good.
DC: And I know there's a lot of problems with it in other places, but I've heard good things about it here in North Carolina.
TS: Good. From people that you talked to?
DC: Right.
TS: Well, would you recommend the military to your daughter or any other young person?
DC: I tried.
TS: Oh, you tried?
[Speaking Simultaneously].
DC: I would. Yeah, I would. She wants nothing to do with it.
TS: No? She's just on a different kind of path.
DC: Yeah. She's way different. [both chuckle]
TS: Well, you said people didn't think of you as being in the navy, though, right?
DC: Right. She's—That's not for her. People always poo—Always—One way or the other, they hate it or they like it.
TS: For the service?
DC: Yes. 44
TS: That's probably not so inaccurate. [both chuckle] But do you think—Is there anything that you think that you want civilian—like people that you work with—to understand that they may not understand about what it's like to be in the military? Something they may not appreciate?
DC: I don't know. It's hard to—When I talk to my friends at work—I've talk to them about it and they always ask me, "How was it"? And I said it was a good experience, but it's a certain type of person that is going to be in the military. You can't talk somebody into it.
TS: Right, what kind of qualities do you think?
DC: Taking orders. Taking instruction. Time constraints, everything's—and scheduling. The discipline. That's hard for—
TS: Some people?
DC: Yeah.
TS: Did you ever—Did you feel like you became more independent, personally, after you joined the service?
DC: Oh yes.
TS: Yeah? So that helped shape your life a little bit in that way.
DC: Oh, yeah.
TS: What does patriotism mean to you?
DC: Oh, everything, being—the love of country. You want to defend it and respect it and do well and do good by it.
TS: Would you do it again; would you sign up again?
DC: Yeah, I would.
TS: Yeah?
DC: Yeah.
TS: Would you do anything differently?
DC: Oh, study hard and not[?] get married. [both chuckle] I have a friend, my best friend, besides her husband being in the service, her sister retired from the navy. She put in twenty years. 45
TS: Yeah, a lot of women have be able to do that. Except that you were in a time that—well, '76 was kind of the beginning of the time when a lot of women started to join the military.
DC: Yeah, it wasn't really the thing to do.
TS: Right. Right.
DC: Still thinking about—I never thought I would.
TS: Do you see yourself as a trailblazer in that way at all?
DC: Yeah, it's—I don't know the numbers, but I guess there wasn't a lot compared to now.
TS: Yeah, it was a small percentage. They started allowing more in the early seventies, but by '76 they were still not like they are today.
DC: Yeah, [unclear]
TS: And certainly the same jobs weren't open then as are now. I mean, the same jobs that—There's a lot more jobs open now than there were then; opportunities have changed.
DC: Yeah. So yeah, I feel like a trail blazer. Everybody's shocked to hear. [both chuckle]
TS: Well, now they're going to know.
DC: Yeah, like that memorial. That's wonderful they have that in Washington, D.C. now.
TS: The women's memorial. [Women in Military Service for America Memorial]
DC: Yeah, that really is something to be proud of. You can go in there and I'll be in—All the women are honored in that way—
TS: Right.
DC: —forever. And then the ceremony, you always pay tribute. You get to read out the fallen women soldiers; you get read out their names when they have that ceremony at night time. I got to read off a woman's name that—and my family did. They hand—As you're walking to the ceremony—
TS: They give you a slip of paper?
DC: Yes.
TS: Okay, that had to have been quite moving to participate—
46
DC: Yeah, that is really something, to go to that memorial.
TS: What does your daughter think of—
DC: No, she's—
TS: Because she would've been very—You had gotten out already when you had her.
DC: Yes. She's completely opposite. Even though both of her parents were in she completely—
TS: She doesn't see it as a [unclear] at all.
DC: No, she doesn't see it.
TS: Well, I don't have any other formal questions for you. Is there anything that we haven't covered that you'd like to add, that I might not have asked you about?
DC: I can't think of anything. I enjoy the luncheon; the tribute that UNCG does.
TS: We're glad to have you come to it. I'm glad—And you said you found it in the paper, right?
DC: Yeah.
TS: So that's great.
DC: That's special; it's really nice to just have something like that.
TS: To honor the women that have served.
DC: Right.
TS: Well, we hope to see you again next year. And now you'll be part of the collection.
DC: Yeah, that's even more—
TS: Yeah.
DC: —exciting.
TS: Well, thank you so much, Denise. I'm really glad that you let me come in and you're— having a nice conversation with you today. So thank you.
DC: Thank you.
47
[End of Interview].