Oral history interview with Don Hughes, 2011

              PRESERVING OUR HISTORY: ROTARY CLUB OF GREENSBORO
ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION
INTERVIEWEE: Don Hughes
INTERVIEWER: Kathelene Smith
DATE: August 9, 2011
KS: Good morning, Mr. Hughes. It is July 9, 2011, and we’re at The University of North Carolina at Greensboro for a Preserving Our History: Rotary Club of Greensboro oral history interview. Good morning, Mr. Hughes, how are you this morning?
DH: I’m fine. How are you?
KS: Fine, thank you very much. Please tell me where and when you were born.
DH: I was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts, in 1929.
KS: Did you grow up there?
DH: I grew up there as well.
KS: So, tell me a little bit about your family, home life, and growing up in Cambridge.
DH: Well, I went to school there, basically, all the way through.
KS: What were your favorite topics in school?
DH: You mean in high school or grade school?
KS: Either way.
DH: High school – I probably liked – my favorite was probably history more than anything else.
KS: Were you an athlete? Did you play on any teams?
DH: I played baseball.
KS: In school or on the block?
DH: No, no. Played both.KS: So, tell me about your family and your home life. What did your parents do?
DH: My mother was an at-home mother. My father was superintendent of streets for the city of Cambridge.
KS: Did you have any siblings?
DH: I had six.
KS: Six siblings?
DH: Six.
KS: Where did you fall in the range of that?
DH: I fell – I was number three.
KS: Well, how was living with all those brothers and sisters?
DH: We got along pretty well.
KS: When you graduated, what did you do next?
DH: Well, from grade school I went on to high school there, a place called Cambridge Latin School. That was that.
KS: And when you graduated, did you go on to college right away, or did you do something else?
DH: I went into the military. That was 1946. I went into the Navy.
KS: Did you train in the United States first?
DH: I did.
KS: Where were you stationed first?
DH: First place was Bainbridge, Maryland. It was a training camp. And then, from there was assigned to ships – mainly destroyers.
KS: So, did you stay in the United States, or did you go overseas at that point?
DH: Obviously, at that time the war had ended – that’s World War II. I was assigned to the U.S.S. Hank, which was at that time based in Charleston, South Carolina. We went out of there a number of times. And then, from there I went into – I was assigned to a radar training school for about four months. And then, transferred back to another destroyer, U.S.S. Vogelgesang. And that was also in – briefly in Charleston, but, then, relocated to Norfolk, a variety of other places.
KS: And what was the name of that ship again?
DH: V-o-g-e-l – vogel – g-e-s-a-n-g, the song of the birds. It’s German.
KS: So, that was also in Charleston? So, you spent a good deal of time there?
DH: Well, just briefly there. But mainly home base – our home base became Norfolk, Virginia.
KS: Were you in the military for four years?
DH: Four years – ’46 to ’50.
KS: In the same region?
DH: Now, well, we did a lot of moving around – the Atlantic Coast, and then, over the Mediterranean through there.
KS: The Mediterranean, that must have been exciting for a young man!
DH: Well, join the Navy, see the world.
KS: That’s what they say! Any favorite spots over there? Did they let you off the ship to look around?
DH: Oh, yes.
KS: Any favorite spots?
DH: I’d have to think about that.
KS: I always thought that would be so interesting.
DH: I liked Italy.
KS: So, after your military service, you got out, and what were your plans then?
DH: Well, to get an education. I went on to Harvard.
KS: Oh, great.
DH: I graduated in ’55 from college.KS: How was Harvard?
DH: It’s a good school.
KS: So, what were your favorite topics?
DH: I majored in economics.
KS: So, any other interests in your college years? What was it like?
DH: Main thing was to study, so that I could acquire a decent education.
KS: So, you were focused?
DH: I was focused. I grew up in the Navy.
KS: Well, that’s true. So, you had probably gained a lot of great skills to go to college.
DH: I gained maturity.
KS: So, four years at Harvard. Any other events you recall from your Harvard days that you want to talk about?
DH: Well, in that period of time when I was a sophomore, I got married.
KS: So, you met your wife at college?
DH: I did.
KS: Was she in school also?
DH: Yes, she was. She – any case we met there. We married there, and after college, I went on to graduate school, Harvard Business School.
KS: So, you kept on at Harvard?
DH: I did.
KS: And your wife’s name is?
DH: Agnes. Agnes.
KS: So, you continued there at Harvard for another two years?DH: I did, and I studied two years. As a matter of fact, when I got out of there, I joined the faculty there, and I stayed in that for two years. Research associate instructor.
KS: Did you enjoy that? Did you enjoy teaching and researching?
DH: Yes, it was good. But I decided after that, the best thing for me to do was to move on. They wanted me to stay on and become a full-time academic. I decided I’d move on to the business world.
KS: That’s quite a switch.
DH: Well, you’re teaching business. So, in many respects, it’s close.
KS: So, it wasn’t as much of an ivory tower atmosphere as you hear?
DH: Well, let’s put it this way. You’re talking business, and that’s the subject matter. So, that was that. And then, of course, all of that was still in Cambridge, and we were still living there. Then, I joined Burlington Industries.
KS: So, that early? That was early on.
DH: It was. I was asked to come on down.
KS: That was quite a move regionally. Well, I guess you had spent some time down in Charleston.
DH: I had spent time in the South, mainly in the Navy. And, of course, I had moved around a good deal when I was in the Navy. So, I was not unaccustomed to relocating as necessary. But we relocated from Cambridge to Greensboro.
KS: So, what was Greensboro like when you first got here?
DH: Well, it was a very pleasant city. We enjoyed it. And, frankly, we always thought that we were well-accepted. Nothing traumatic by any means.
KS: People talk about what a nice city it’s always been.
DH: I think so. I think that’s true.
KS: Did y’all raise a family here?
DH: Two girls.
KS: So, that was quite a move, and you moved down to Greensboro. So, tell me about raising your family, a young family, in Greensboro.DH: Well, the person who really did that was my wife. She did that without question. I moved around a bit and relocated from several places. So, she took care of everything really at the home.
KS: What kind of things did y’all do? I know people talked about the wonderful Christmas parades here, and just a sense of a nice community in Greensboro.
DH: Well, that is true. We had good friendships, very good.
KS: Now, the next section is about your business career. So, if you would like to talk about that, about the work that you did and what led you to choose that career. Well, you’ve talked a little bit about that already.
DH: Well, I was mainly in the financial side of things right from the beginning. Sort of an assistant to – oh, who was he? The top guy. And I got some original training through that, mainly at the corporate headquarters. Then, I was reassigned to several of our divisions, including located in – well, one of the divisions was in High Point. So, that was close by. And then, another one was in North Georgia – a big woolen complex. It was the largest woolen complex in the world. And we stayed out there for close to two years. And then, I was relocated back to Greensboro and did several things on corporate staff. And then, just progressed along from working in divisions. I was called back to Greensboro when I started a new activity called operations research, which involved the use of computers and some mathematical tools to help in decision-making. And that activity was successful, well-accepted. And then, I received a promotion to become assistant controller of the company, and I just went up the line through there. Assistant controller, controller, treasurer, financial vice president, executive vice president, on, that sort of thing.
KS: What a career!
DH: And vice chairman of the company.
KS: So, you’ve seen a lot of things grow and change, I bet, as an industry.
DH: I have. Well, one of the things I did along the way, as far as the industry – I was the president of the American Textile Manufacturers, which is the principal industry organization. So, I did that.
KS: Tell me about that. How were you involved with that?
DH: How was I involved? I represented the industry. One of the things – one of the principal things on which I focused was we had a fundamental problem. The problem still exists involving imports into the United States. And imports were growing at a very, very rapid rate, almost uncontrollable. And it was a goal, if you will, of the industry to try to control the growth rate, and our position was we would share the growth with imports, but that should be our basic policy. And that should also be the policy of the United States. And we pursued effort [?]. And one of the things we did when I was president, we drew up legislation that would – if enacted – would control the growth rate of imports to match the growth rate of consumption of textile and apparel products in the United States’ market, which we were willing to share. But we were not willing to, in effect, see the industry taken over and dominated by products coming from offshore. After recognizing at that time there were close to, well, say at least three million people in textile, and apparel, and fiber jobs in the country. Essentially, it was a national industry. So, we had legislation drawn up, and we had the legislation submitted to both branches of Congress. And the legislation was overwhelmingly approved by the House of Representatives, and the Senate by over two-thirds, over two-thirds. The legislation was then submitted to the president who was Bush, Sr., at that time, and he vetoed it. Even though supposedly we had an understanding in advance that he would support that.
KS: What were his reasons? Did he ever come out with anything?
DH: Oh, sort of the traditional – he didn’t think that it was the best thing to do. He was in favor of free trade. Now, free trade, unfortunately, is simply a term for anybody to do whatever they want to do. If you don’t have specific definitions associated with it concerning what is going to be allowed, then the doors are going to remain wide opened.
KS: Which is what happened.
DH: Which is, frankly, what did happen. In any case, he vetoed it, and our goal after that was to find other means that could result in controlling the growth rate. And one of the things – well, that’s an aside, I won’t get into that. We did, ultimately, work out an understanding with his chief of staff. There was a change in chief of staff, and Baker became the chief of staff. And we were able to work with him, and as a result of that, did get a so-called executive order put into place that would control the growth of imports. But executive orders can be changed by whoever the new president might be. But that was my goal was to get something like that, and to see if we could find an opportunity to resubmit the legislation for approval.
KS: That showed a lot of foresight.
DH: Well, really, it was transparent. You could see what was happening. You could see what was going to happen. And there were interests – other interests in Washington. People would say we should trade off industries like textiles, apparel, fibers and things like that for industries that would be more promising for the future, whatever they might be. And if that meant that textiles became a – something passé, then so be it. The world will move on, and people will get jobs in other industries. Well, in any case, that was sort of the point-of-view of a number of people. We won’t go into that. That’s a long story in itself. So, that was my goal, and we did get that in effect enacted there. But somewhere during that same era, my company was attacked by an attempted takeover. I don’t know if you’ve seen anything like that. So, there was an attempted takeover by – a hostile takeover. My major goal was to defeat that, and to do what was necessary to defeat it. We were able to defeat it, but in the course of defeating it, we had to take the company private. And that required that we take on a great amount of debt. We bought in all of our stock, and we financed that with borrowings in the market, both from banks, and also from other financial institutions. It was about a three billion dollar takeover attempt. But we had to take on that debt, buying the stocks so that we became a private company. Our goal from that point forward was to run the company as well as possible so that within a reasonable span of time we could find a way to reduce the debt and, ultimately, sell stock in the marketplace and take the company public once again. And we did that. We did it. So, from having about $3 billion of debt and almost very little equity –just maybe a couple hundred million of equity at that time – we took the company public again five years after the attempted takeover.
KS: About what year was this?
DH: That was in 1992.
KS: ’92.
DH: ’92.
KS: What a wild ride that must have been!
DH: It was a wild ride. It was a wild ride. But the main thing I – it was absolutely necessary that we had that agreement in Washington that would control the growth of imports during that span of time, because imports would have, obviously, undercut that particular game plan.
KS: Did you spend a lot of time in Washington yourself?
DH: That was under my responsibility.
KS: Oh, really. That must have been exciting!
DH: Yes. We had some very good people on our staff. One fellow is still here in Greensboro. He’s got a story he ought to try to tell at some point. He was somewhat of a trade guy. But our chief lobbyist in Washington was a woman.
KS: Wow, in the early ’90s. DH: She was something. She was a tall, blonde-haired girl, and she knew her way around Washington. She would say, “Don, you have to come up here. We have to go see so-and-so.”
KS: Well, that sounds fascinating. What a time!
DH: It was a time. But we did achieve our goals at that time. The main thing was to keep the wolf away from the door as far as imports are concerned so that we could carry through a strategy, take the company public once again. And we did that.
KS: So, at that time you were – what were you in the company?
DH: I was vice chairman of the company. I was in charge of all that stuff and pushing all of that. That was my goal.
KS: So, you got the wolf away from the door. So then, how did it go after that?
DH: Well, it was up to the – the company was actually, during that span of time, we were doing well. Doing well. And I was getting toward the end of my career. Geared down, and I retired in 1996 – ’96, I think. Yes.
KS: And decided to stay in this area? It was home, I guess, by then.
DH: Well, we have a second home on Hilton Head Island. We go down there. So, that’s the Don Hughes story.
KS: Well, let’s see what other questions I have. Not so fast. So, we know how long you’ve lived in North Carolina. And how has Greensboro and North Carolina changed since you’ve lived here?
DH: Well, the greatest change, obviously, that has occurred in North Carolina is the composition of the job force. North Carolina was the largest location for textile and apparel and fiber manufacturing, by far, by far – over 300,000 people employed in those industries during that time. If you want an exercise to just see what change is, check to see what the statistics say today concerning textile and apparel.
KS: It’s overwhelming and fast. It seems like it happened, at some point, relatively quickly.
DH: Unfortunately, after that particular point in time, the growth rate of imports accelerated because there was no significant barrier. The administrations in Washington have not been – and this is true of Republicans as well as Democrats – both have not exactly been oriented to, let’s say “assist,” I’ll use that term, the textiles industry, particularly as far as administrations are concerned. Even though we’ve had this overwhelming support – you don’t get support over two-thirds of the Congress unless there is broad-based support throughout the country. And we did have broad-based support throughout the country. We had over two-thirds again, over two-thirds of both the house and the Senate that voted for that legislation.
KS: And all those jobs lost overseas.
DH: All those jobs.
KS: It’s heartbreaking.
DH: In terms of – and quite frankly you say, what’s the benefit? Particularly this old adage, “They’ll find jobs somewhere else.” That’s nonsense. It is nonsense, particularly when you – if you go around, let’s say, mostly the areas where there used to be significant textiles, including here in Greensboro where there was a significant base, and say, “Where are those people working?” Unfortunately, you will find that most of those people work in the plants, those textile mills. They were not highly educated. And you say, “What are they going to do? What are they going to do? What are you going to retrain them to do?” It’s nonsense, absolute nonsense.
KS: And now here we are – look at the jobless rate.
DH: Look at what we get. In my opinion, that’s the so-called area of globalization is going to solve the problem. It’s not. I hate to say it. If you don’t look out for your own, nobody is going to look out for them.
KS: Well, it certainly has changed the landscape of the area.
DH: It’s changed it dramatically and sadly. The adverse effects – so, that’s the story.
KS: Well, since we also talked to others about some of the issues facing Greensboro, such as population growth, economic growth, leadership, race relations – well, the water shortage, but I think that’s pretty much been cleared up.
DH: I think that’s been handled well. I give credits to guys like Jim Melvin and, oh, his top chief, Tom Osborne, very good guy. Very good. We used to have – I don’t know if I want to get into that. But there used to be – and there may be something like that today. But there used to be a group of people that met with some degree of frequency to talk about problems of the city and what should be done about it. This would include, oh, Melvin was on that – the guy who was head of Jefferson Pilot, Roger Soles. Well, his son is still around. You could probably get him to talk about his dad. Who else? Chuck Hayes. You’ve probably heard about him. Let’s see. Hayes, and I’m trying to think of others, [Wilbur] “Bo” Carter. The guy who was head of Cone at that time was Dewey Trogdon, good fellow. But we’d get together and – about fifteen or twenty of us – and we discussed what are problems, and what do we need to do about it, and what should we do about it. And the guys who could best talk about that are the guys who – and I’m saying “guys” because that’s all there were at that time. Someone like Melvin. Have you had Melvin yet?
KS: No. Is he a Rotarian?
DH: He has been. But he’s – he is someone you definitely should talk about if you want, let’s say, a broad perspective on the history of Greensboro. But we would talk about what we had or what we could possibly do. Just assist and in various areas. And it was effective.
KS: Everybody said that the town has done well, and the leadership has been exceptional both in public office and –
DH: Well we’ve – the only ones who was involved politically was somebody like Melvin or a Vic Nussbaum – Vic was on this for a while – guys who ran big organizations here. Even those that, let’s say, were national or international, because we had a large international operation, too.
KS: What do you see in Greensboro’s future?
DH: That’s a good question. That’s a very good question. I think the critical, most critical thing is, frankly, having a strong educational base. If you don’t have that, you’re not going to be able to attract organizations that are going to be able to grow the city.
KS: Well, there’s – luckily we do have several colleges here.
DH: Yes. That’s good.
KS: And so, that’s been lucky for the city. Were you involved with any of the colleges here?
DH: Not now. I used to – as a matter of fact, I served on a committee, you know, what’s his name? Jim Weeks. He wanted me to consider the possibility of doing some teaching, but I –
KS: You don’t want to?
DH: I’m out of the teaching game. I don’t have the patience for it. I really don’t. I’m haven’t, for that matter. As a matter of fact, several people have wanted me to write a book.
KS: Well, that’s a good idea, too!DH: I’m not going to do that. Who is going to read this stuff?
KS: Oh, a lot of people. That would be great!
DH: I’m not going to do it.
KS: How many people have had the experiences that you’ve had? Not many. So, you were taking about with the colleges, what role do you think the local colleges and universities should play in the economic and cultural development for this community?
DH: Well, here again, I’m removed. I’m not involved. The most important thing is to get the views of people who are involved, and one of the things that I think is very, very good for the city is, especially, the work that is being done by GTCC [Guilford Technical Community College]. Because they’re at the actual workplace level, for the most part, and, therefore, they – the guy who’s been running it for years out there, Don Cameron – he’s good.
KS: I’ve interviewed him.
DH: You have? I have high regard for him. I think he’s as good as they come. Excellent perspective on assessment of the capabilities of the community. I mean, he is not prone to exaggeration and pie-in-the-sky. He has his feet on the ground.
KS: I heard him speak at a Rotary meeting, as a matter of fact, and he seemed –
DH: I couldn’t attend that one.
KS: He seemed to have some very practical ideas on how to train the workforce.
DH: He is practical, and he’s done that. And the main thing is to know what those are. And one of the possibilities – he has the vision of knowing what is possible, likely be possible out there, because he maintains good relations with his counterparts, or his former counterparts, throughout the state and also throughout the region to know what is going on, and what is likely to be beneficial in attracting industry into this area. I don’t know anybody who has a better feel of that.
KS: He’s doing a lot, I think, with transportation.
DH: He’s done a variety of things. Obviously, he deserves credit for this effort in training involving aviation. He’s good. He’s good. But it’s that sort of thing. He’s got his hands really on the ground level. He can feel the pulse.
KS: Yes, that was an impressive speech that he gave.
DH: He’s good.KS: Now, you talked a little bit about politics. Were you ever really directly involved with politics? Did you ever run for anything or have the desire to?
DH: No. I don’t have the patience. I mean I’m just – I’ve had a – let’s say, I’ve had a significant amount of involvement. One of the things I should have also mentioned, just so you know, I have been chairman of what is called the North Carolina Citizens for Business and Industry, done that along the way. I think they changed the name of that now. I think it’s now called the equivalent of North Carolina Chamber of Commerce, or something like that. But it used to be NCCBI. That was the main thing.
KS: Now, this was while you were still at Burlington?
DH: Oh, yeah.
KS: So, you were really busy. You didn’t have time to run for anything!
DH: I kept my hand in it. The main thing is to know that, and I was part of that. I also – what is it? I served on what is called the Governor’s Business Advisory Council. That was about fifteen or twenty guys that met, maybe at least every other month, with the governor and talk about business, and what should be done that would be beneficial and so forth. And that would be all the major companies in the state – would have guys like the head of Duke Power, what is now Progress Energy, you know, down in Raleigh there. They did the Eastern part of the state. All that sort of thing.
KS: Well, the next question was about philanthropic causes, but I don’t see how you had time to do anything else at all.
DH: No, I didn’t.
KS: Let’s see –
DH: Let’s see, but I did – I would support them in whatever way I could, particularly, let’s say, financially, and so forth.
KS: Now, when did you join the Rotary Club of Greensboro, and how did you get involved?
DH: I never – I declined joining anything like that while I was actively at work. But I didn’t have the time, because I should have mentioned that I used to split my work time between here and New York. I had an office in New York, and I would be in New York two or three days a week. Had an apartment up there in the city. So, when you’re doing that, going back and forth. In any case, our company was very big. We’re the largest company – textile company in the United States, in the world, frankly, in that manner.
KS: How exciting to be in New York part of the time. Or did it seem like that at the time, or was it just kind of a hassle to go back and forth?
DH: It was just – you have to accept that as part of the job. Fortunately, my wife was able to go up and stay with me in New York a very, very large part of the time.
KS: Oh, that’s nice.
DH: That’s very good. Very good.
KS: So, you got involved with the Rotary after?
DH: After. I’d say probably about fifteen years ago, sixteen, something of that area. Something like that. Oh, I think the guy who recruited me, asked me to do it, he had been after for me for years – a fellow by the name of Harold O’Toole. I don’t know if you –
KS: O’Toole?
DH: O’Toole. Great, capable guy. Very smart fellow. I think he – I’m pretty sure he’s retired now. He ran his own company.
KS: So, he pretty much got you – finally broke you down and got you in?
DH: Well, he just – but that’s that.
KS: So, have you been really involved since you’ve been the Rotary? What kind of things have you participated in?
DH: I’ve not been very active in – I haven’t been around. Because we spend close to half of our time on Hilton Head Island. And, obviously, you’ve got to be involved in the Rotary. You better be involved and be around. That’s the way I do it. And I just don’t want to be involved in something and not be able to be involved.
KS: Well, a lot of people do talk about what they’ve done since retirement. You’re living by the shore, are you a fisherman, or –
DH: I play some golf.
KS: You’re a golfer?
DH: A bit of fishing, not much. Fishing is just – let’s say, a little bit on the inactive side. And you’re hoping that the fish is going to come on there. KS: There is a lot to chance.
DH: Well, that’s that.
KS: Anything else that you would like to talk about, or things that you have been involved in lately, or any other kind of interest, something we may have missed? Something we might have missed that you might like to talk about or comment on?
DH: I can’t think of anything right now. I’m sure there are all sorts of things.
KS: OK. We could always do it again. Well then, thank you very much for the interview. I appreciate it.
DH: Well, I hope you got what you want.
KS: Thank you very much.
[Recorder turned off]
[Recorder turned back on]
KS: I’m back with Mr. Hughes. And he had a few comments he wanted to add about his wife, Agnes.
DH: Yes. She is – while I have not been, let’s say, involved in external activities in the community over the years, my wife has. She has been involved in a variety of things over the years. Let’s see. She was deeply involved in charitable activities in support of the [North Carolina] School for the Deaf here. I should remember all of them, but the most significant thing that she did over the years, and along the line, she was also involved in church activities. And she was the founding chairman of the Greensboro Council of Catholic Women.
And so, she got that started, and that’s still in existence. And that, of course, covers all the Catholic churches in Greensboro. But the most significant thing was, she started a program called Piedmont Irish Children’s Program. I don’t know if you are aware of it, but there used to be, call it a mini-war going on in Northern Ireland. And after she wound up her stint involved with the School for the Deaf, she took some time off, and after she was, let’s say, away from that about maybe close to a year, she started thinking of getting re-involved with something else. And she learned about this program involving Northern Ireland from a Rotary Club in Hibbing, Minnesota, that had decided to invite some children from the inner city of Belfast to the Hibbing, Minnesota, area. Because some mothers over in the Belfast area said they wanted to see if someone would probably take their children during the summer when hostilities were most aactive and take them out of this war zone. And this Rotary Club in Hemming said that they would do it, and I think my wife saw or heard of that by watching – I think it was an old Walter Cronkite Show – this Hibbing, the head of the Hibbing Rotary talked about this activity that they had started. And she said, “I’m going to look into that.” And the next thing you know, she’s off and running. And she got a group of potentially interested people to come together, and she found an Episcopal priest from, I think it was from somewhere in the New York area, to come to Greensboro and talk about an effort that he had also started at about that time. And she got about twenty or twenty-five, let’s say, significant people to come together and listen to this guy. And then, she put on the hard sell by saying, “We should all get together and do this.” The next thing you know – and this did involve people like the Lineberry’s and John Forbis, and – who else? Nussbaum. In any case, lots of significant people – from Catholics, Episcopals, Methodists, Presbyterians. She had about seven or eight churches that were willing to be involved.
The next thing you know is, she then gets in touch with someone that she knew, or that we knew, who was in Northern Ireland – and we – because our company had some plants in Ireland. And she establishes – she gets an organization going over there of school teachers who would involve themselves. She was going to start a program over there to recruit kids who would then be brought to the United States. And that involved, of course, getting approval from the school authorities over there and also involved, frankly, getting in touch with people in the community. So, she has established an organization there. The next thing I know, within a year, she had about thirty kids coming to Greensboro and that gradually grew to over one hundred in the summer. She raised all the money for it in the community. Everything was strictly private donations. And all the money that was raised was strictly for transportation and insurance. She placed the kids with families throughout the area of Greensboro, and she also extended it over to Winston, High Point, Asheboro, Reidsville, communities here.
KS: What a project!
DH: And she got them from all – I mean, the kids they brought over were all ages, initially ages nine to eleven, boys and girls, supposedly even. Had to be a balance of Protestant and Catholic, balanced them. I mean, just a real labor of love. It turned out to be quite the thing and became very, very well known. She became known as the Irish children lady.
KS: What a great project!
DH: Well, she did a great job. She really did. She is an organizer. She really – and as a matter of fact, from that, from the roots of that, she, then, established a hand bell choir from these kids because she wanted to have something that would enable the kids to get together periodically when they returned to Belfast. And that was not an easy thing to do because at that time, there was essentially almost no interchange in the community. I don’t know if you ever heard anything about Belfast. It was like a war zone, and they called them peace walls, but they actually were in many respects almost like prison walls, segregating the groups from each other in various areas of Belfast. Belfast is a fairly large city – it’s about, oh, 400,000 to 500,000 overall – and, obviously, the largest city, and the only significant city in Northern Ireland. And she brought over thousands of kids over the years. But she’s phased it out, because they have peace over there. And she has received a fair amount of credit for helping that peace to occur.
KS: What a wonderful woman.
DH: One of the things that was almost a capstone of it, when she had this hand bell choir established. And, by the way, one of the things that was very significant – she got the woman who is, I think, assistant choir director of West Market Methodist to agree to train these kids in playing chimes and hand bells. And as a result of that – and had her go over and spend several weeks in Belfast in the training program. And kids have oriented themselves through this program over the years. And my wife decided to phase it out a couple of years ago because peace had basically been established, but she did arrange to have three hand bell choirs established in Belfast. One with the Presbyterian Church. One with what they called an integrated school – that is a – schools used to be strictly segregated by religious line basis of Protestant or Catholic. No intermingling. But in recent years they have established – the government there has established what they call integrated schools, which allow children from both communities to go to school together, and that’s coming along. So, she placed one set of hand bells there because one of her teachers over there that she had established was going to be a teacher in this school. She could pick up on these hand bells. And then, she has placed a third set of hand bells now in a Catholic girls’ secondary school. As a matter of fact, when we were over there in June, we went to this school and they – let’s say, they entertained us. Very good.
KS: What a legacy!
DH: She’s done – and that has definitely helped foster peace. And as a result of that process, we have many friends in Northern Ireland and also down in the Republic, as well.
KS: And you still go there? That’s fabulous!
DH: And that’s a massive story in itself.
KS: Y’all are a power house couple. Y’all get some stuff done!
DH: As I said, if she’s involved, she’s going to be involved – period. She’s something.
KS: Do y’all travel a lot?
DH: Well, I’d say we probably do. Our neighbors say, “Oh, you’re around.”KS: So, they’re surprised to see you?
DH: “You’re back in town.” Right.
KS: Well, that’s a lot of fun. Well, that’s great. Thank you for telling me about that. It’s quite a legacy.
DH: That’s that. And I’ll sign this thing.
KS: OK. Let me turn this off again.
[End of interview]