Oral history interview with Lillian Spencer Steele [Army town]

              ARMY TOWN – ORAL HISTORIES 1
INTERVIEWEE: Lillian Spencer Steele
INTERVIEWER: J. Stephen Catlett
DATE: July 15, 1993
[Begin Interview]
JSC: [unclear] Nineteen-Ninety Three. The following is an oral history interview with Mrs. Lillian Spencer Steele of Greensboro, N.C., who worked as an administrative assistant or secretary at BTC [Basic Training Center], ORD [Overseas Replacement Depot] Greensboro during World War II. The following are her reminiscences of people and events during this time.
LS: Are you sure? [Talking with JC] Well that’s my fingernail.
JSC: [unclear] I brought a few women related photographs. The nurses are there, and they had basic training for nurses, and there Air WACs [Women’s Air Corps] on base, and volunteers that worked there. I’m assuming you really didn’t have a lot of contact, with uh, you know, or I don’t know, did you see women on base?
LS: The ones that worked with me.
JSC: Mm-Hmm. But not—were there military woman that worked in the office?
LS: No, there were civilians.
JSC: Okay.
LS: Because Chessie[?], Chessie Walker was—oh, was that Carol Stoker[?]?
1 This recording was conducted by J. Stephen Catlett, Archivist at the Greensboro Historical Museum, as part of the research for the Army Town: Greensboro 1943-1946 exhibit that was held at the Greensboro Historical Museum from November 1993 until November 1995. Excerpts from this recorded were played in the Army Town exhibit, as well as in the current (2014) Voices of a City: Greensboro North Carolina.
JSC: I don’t know. Do you know the name? See but I think that might be a military person.
LS: Oh, I bet it is. She looked like Carol Stoker[?].
JSC: Some of these are WACs—Air WACs from out there.
LS: She looks like Carol Stoker[?]
JSC: She was a British woman in town. But you—you would’ve no reason really to come in contact much with military women on the base.
LS: Only one, Emma Kernon[?] and she was head of our office for a while. And she was on smart as she could be.
JSC: Here’s this booklet we found here.
LS: Oh, yeah. You probably threw me away.
JSC: No. Oh, no, no, no, no! It’s not in this one, I’m sorry.
LS: Well that’s alright. Let me look in that one.
JSC: Yeah, you can look at this—I forgot there are—our curator of exhibits borrowed the other one. I have two, this is one more booklet. Oh, I’m sorry.
LS: That’s alright.
JSC: I forgot you were in the other one. The other one, is it’s a five-day separation process that occurred in ORD. Men, and I guess maybe some women were separated out. But they had put it together as a documentary of, on day one this is what happened, day two, on day five you got your pay. Your picture—your picture was in that other volume. So this is probably—I don’t think these have any civilians on it.
LS: I don’t need glasses, but I just want to get up here close. Oh. No, now see this was all—these were all military. I meant they were all, you know. Um no, I’d forgotten exactly the first placed I worked in was someplace up near this end of it, you know, at the beginning. In a—a building that was very cold. We had big cardboard boxes that you might pack something in, but we had those under our desks, and put our feet in them because the air was just coming right up, it was terrible. But we managed.
JSC: Now tell me—let’s go back a little bit in time. You—were you born in Greensboro.
LS: No, I’m from Virginia.
JSC: So when did you come here?
LS: I came here in ’43.
JSC: So did you come here to work, were you in school?
LS: No, I —well, I came here to work. I had graduated from college and my first check, I mean my first salary was ninety dollars a month and I was in Danville, and I was teaching in Danville. Well, actually I was librarian. But I did teaching too, I taught Phys Ed, and grew a half of an inch, but I had soon lost that. But that was right after I had graduated from college. And then, my aunt was over here, she was working in a government school; that was an experimental thing that was over here. And—so we decided that we’d—I decided I’d come over, my mother and I. So that’s what we did, we came over and lived here. And of course I had to have—I had to do something, but I didn’t want to go back for ninety dollars a month. I forgotten the pay that I got which was considerably more than that, at that time, and I’d thought I’d hit a gold mine. But when we moved here in ’43, we moved over in Dr. Jackson’s house near the college, he was a big man over there, a professor—something. Anyway—
JSC: Walter Clinton Jackson?
LS: Yeah.
JSC: The green house that’s on Spring Garden Street?
LS: No, no it’s been dis—no it was on McIver.
JSC: It was on McIver.
LS: Great big brown—trimmed in brown, but it was like stucco. Huge house. Had fleas in it. [chuckles]
JSC: Oh no. Did you share an apartment there?
LS: No, there was a—no, [unclear] I was not married then. My whole family came, and we moved there, because I just had my aunt and my mother. So we moved over there, and we didn’t stay there long because the fleas were terrible, and we just couldn’t get rid of them. So anyway, finally we moved over to a house on Rankin Place, and stayed there—oh, for a long time. Well—until I got married—well my mother still lived there for a while. And I then got married in ’43 —‘44. Here I can’t even remember. [chuckles]
JSC: Now, was your husband a civilian?
LS: No, I met him at the camp.
JSC: Another—Another one. Everyone I interview it seems like— LS: He was from Syracuse, N.Y. And anyway, finally we were married in Party Four, June 3rd. JSC: Do you remember how and where you met him? LS: Uh he—I was with the uh—I can’t recall what they called my party but his party was Permanent Party. And he was the sergeant in charge, he ruled the roost. He really did. And I was just—I typed endorsements to send people out, you know, got them ready to go overseas. Their endorsements for their service records. That’s what I did all day long. And then I was, then I —well, anyway, down at that building. Then I transferred down to another building, which was a little further down the street. And then, we made the transition going way up—you know where the warehouses were, up at the—before the railroad track? JSC: Um-hmm. LS: No, it was on the other side of the railroad track. I was in there for a long time. And what is—Artie Murphy’s[?] brother worked in there, and I can’t even think of his name, I don’t even know but I know it was— JSC: [unclear] LS: Uh-huh. His brother was there, and that’s when the Lt. Kernon[?], the lady, was our immediate officer there. But when you saw the picture—when I saw the picture, that was down sort of in the middle, there was a building there, there was a large building I don’t know what that was, and then we had a smaller building. And that’s where I saw the picture. And one time-one time Colonel Younts was there, and he was going through the building, you know, inspecting or just going through, and all of a sudden, I was the only one at my desk. At a desk, so he decided he wanted a memorandum dictated, and I don’t take shorthand. But I sat there and typed it while he dictated it—scared me to death! But I guess I was alright, he didn’t hit me over the head, or put me in the brig, or anything or whatever. It was alright I suppose. JSC: What type of control did the military have over the civilian workers? Were people fired, well, I guess they needed workers. LS: Oh, well they had a personnel department, as I recall that was run by a—well, a military man was in charge but then he delegated the duties to civilian women, and so they did the hiring and the firing, and stuff like that. But I don’t recall anybody leaving after they once got there, course I stayed there with them for about four years. And then they were to move—transfer the whole business up to Ft. Monmouth. And I didn’t want to go up there because in the meantime I had gotten married. So, um, but we used to—sometimes we would have to work all day Saturday, all day Sunday, typing, to get those service records ready to go out. And we would sit there, and then we’d take a breather, and we’d look out the window and there was a drill field out there that was up where the warehouses were. And the boys would get out there and parade, every—every day I think it was. And you’d just—it was in the hot sun, and you would see them just fall down, just like blocks, you know just [noise indicating a fall]. And I thought, uh! Not many of them, but I mean, but you would—you could see them fall. And we—our eyes just bugged out at that, because, I’d just never seen anybody just [noise indicating a fall] you know, right down. JSC: So you were working in what would be a typing pool, I guess? LS: Yeah, but I was assigned to the service record department. JSC: Now the other women that were surrounding you in that picture, in that particular room, were they all working on the same types of orders, typing them up? LS: Yeah, Mm-hmm, Mm-hmm. But now the one that Chessie[?] was in, you know, yeah she went with me the whole time, we made the transfer all the way around. When I say all the way around, I mean from building one, two, and three. So, uh— JSC: Now tell me—Now tell me again, going from Building one, two, and three, were you changing jobs? LS: No, no, uh uh. JSC: Same thing? LS: Same thing, just moving to new and bigger quarters. JSC: Bigger quarters. LS: But the first building we went to, it had the draft, it had air-conditioning in the winter. [chuckles] It was very poorly made, but I guess it was the best they could do under the circumstances. But as we went on, we got a little bit better, and I think the warehouse there was a concrete floor, and that was cold too. That was better circumstances. JSC: Now, did you at the time consider this a good job, an important job, did you feel patriotic about the job, or what was your—can you remember, you know, applying for the job? How did you hear of it? LS: We went through civil service. It was a civil service job. As I recall—faintly—I mean I’m not real good at remembering this, but I know we had to have a—had to take a test. But instantly, my college roommate came down, and she and I went and worked together. And she came and lived at my—in my home with, with me. And she’s still living here in Greensboro. Maybe you’d like to talk to her. JSC: What’s her name? LS: Her name is Helen Mason Coulter. Harry Coulter’s wife. And for the moment I cannot think of the name of the street. But it’s Harry Coulter. But Helen and I, we’d trudge off together, you know, every day. We had to ride the bus, we didn’t have a car. JSC: Yeah, tell me about—I’m interested in what a typical day was like. Now you lived—describe, like, where you lived, and how you, you know, got down, or changed buses— LS: Right, that’s what we did. Well, on Teague Street, you know, the bus came along, and we course jumped on that and went to the square, and then we had to get off there and get on another bus that was going out towards the camp, out Summit. Now there was one that went to North Elm, but then this one course went to Summit and we had to be careful and take the one—but it was crowded with soldiers, you knew which one you were going to get on. But, uh— JSC: What about — Was it crowded with civilian workers in the morning? LS: Civilian workers and soldiers, you know, the ones that lived off base, that had families. JSC: It must’ve been hectic, like a rush hour. LS: Well, I’ll tell you, the only way I survived I was much younger. [laughs] I guess I could do it now if I had to. But, I don’t know. And one time the bus broke down right after the underpass out there on Summit—you know that underpass that goes down—and it began to smoke at the back and the rear. We jumped off of that thing and walked the rest of the way. That’s when my feet didn’t hurt. Now just look at them and they just ache. No, they don’t hurt that bad. But anyway, we were young, and we were energetic, and we could just go right ahead. And they are—I want, I want to say this. Absolutely no sexual harassment whatsoever. I mean, nobody was ever—nothing was ever done or said that was out of the way, you know, to us. JSC: In your work environment? LS: In any part of it. Now if they whistled, that was alright. Whistle, don’t touch. I mean, there was never any remarks made, or anything. I think they—I think the men really appreciated us there. I hope they did. There was something else I was going to say. But um, we never had to—Well, I just never thought about anything like that. The world has changed, tremendously. JSC: Now, do you remember when you started to work. Did you start in ’43 or did you move in ’43. The camp opened in March ’43, it was very muddy, and it was very wet spring and some men thought of Camp Mud. Do you have—what’s your own [unclear]. LS: Well, now I didn’t get here to Camp Mud, I got here during the summer, that summer, ’43, and worked. And it was—well the roads were not good, the streets, they were not paved, as I recall. You walked on gravel, or you walked on dirt. So I soon got some better shoes. But see, the bus would go right into the camp, the bus would go right in. And, uh— JSC: You must remember the main gate then. That was on Vesper Avenue. LS: Yeah, Mmm. This does look like it was pave-able. Maybe this one, you know, that goes right on through to Bessemer, it must’ve been paved somewhat. JSC: Would the bus take you actually inside and [unclear]. LS: It would go right, I—probably right on through. JSC: Was it a city bus? LS: Yeah. And then later on, my family had a car and they would let me drive on occasion. JSC: Did you have a pass? LS: I had a sticker. But you had to go somewhere over in this neck of the woods, right through here somewhere, to get a—and get that validated. And then there was always somebody standing back over here, I think. JSC: I talked to day before yesterday to a Marvin Richardson, he was an MP [Military Police] who moved down from Portsmouth, V.A., but he was stationed quite a bit at this main gate, he thinks the main gate was maybe somewhere about where this truck is, you can’t see it—I mean the little gate house [unclear]. LS: Well somewhere along in there. But when we came along—to my recollection the bus went on through. And, our cars, we always had to sort of slow down or stop, and when we would walk through here, we always had to show our—we had identification. JSC: What, if you were trying to describe to someone— LS: Who’s that? JSC: That’s Jerry DeFelice, he’s, uh, that’s a picture taken two or three years ago. I have a photograph taken of him as the camp photographer. He gave us about—he gave us all—about a hundred and seventy issues of the base newspaper, so I’ve got a whole stack, plus about seventy-five photographs, main gate being one of them. He lives up in Rochester, New York. He was good friends with Carol Martin, the photographer? Carol told—taught Jerry a lot about taking sort of journalistic-type photographs, they remained friends, and Carol told me some years ago “Jerry’s a friend of mine and he’s got a whole bunch of old newspapers, you interested in them?” I said sure. So I’ve met Jerry a few times. LS: You know, I thought perhaps I might have some, but I don’t have a thing! Nothing. JSC: Now what—If you were describing to someone, a young person, in particular, what it was like—what a military base was like, or your impression of um, you know, they would have to sense maybe what it was like, was it all hustle and bustle, you know, were there guys marching, how would you describe it? LS: Trucks, marching, course then in the offices the men worked along with us, they were typists there. But see, I wasn’t using my library skills when I was there, but the pay was better, and at the time I was interested in money. And so, where would ninety dollars a month go now? I can turn around and spend ninety dollars; I don’t even have to turn all the way around. But, there was protocol, I mean, they just didn’t walk in and sit down at the—in the captain’s office. They went in, and they saluted, and all that stuff. But of course, we had nothing to do with that, but the men, they were strictly military. JSC: Now would you often see—now of course the first year it was a basic training center, and in May ’44 it switched over to an overseas replacement-ORD. I imagine then your first few months until the change, and you must’ve seen men marching in groups in formations, here and there and about, and that type of thing. LS: Right, seems to me I did more, after it became ORD, I had more endorsements for their service records, because we were shipping them in overseas. I don’t know—the sergeant would pull the records, and give them to us, and we would have to type the endorsement. And that’s the reason we had to work Saturdays and Sundays, on occasion. JSC: Do you have any sense of how many soldiers’ records you might have had to type up in a day? LS: Well, I imagine I would have done maybe a hundred or two, depending on how many they were sending out. JSC: So at any day that you go out there, you might not know if you were going to be staying late working, is that right? LS: Well, they usually didn’t keep us, in the evening. JSC: Oh, so it was either extra day [unclear]. LS: But we just worked until we got it out. JSC: So, did you have breaks, what about lunch? What did you eat? LS: Well, I think I carried my lunch. And they had coke machines; and things like that. I don’t remember eating. Maybe that was the reason I was so nice and thin then.
JSC: As far as you know, though, civilians couldn’t eat [unclear] in the mess halls were they?
LS: No, uh uh.
JSC: What about—the service club had a cafeteria or—
LS: It had a dining room, or something but we were not allowed to go in there. Maybe an officer could take a lady friend. And then I did go to some of the officer’s dances, in the officer’s club. And then I also went to the enlisted men’s dances, too. They were a lot of fun. Oh, they would pick us up, you know where the Old King Cotton used to be, you know, what’s there now? The paper. Well, it’s a tremendous building. We would go there, and they would send all these trucks after us, and we’d crawl up in there and go out and dance, and have the best time. And then they’d bring us back about eleven, eleven-thirty. And then everybody would have their own rides, my family would come and pick us up. And uh—
JSC: Did you have any preference in terms of going to the service club of enlisted men, as opposed to the officers’ club?
LS: Well, I knew more enlisted men. I knew few—a few of the officers, but not too many of them.
JSC: How did you get to know so many enlisted men?
LS: Well, because I worked in the office with them. And they sort of looked after us like mother hens; they were very protective. That’s just so unique now, for anybody to be protective like they were. But when they saw us come in, oooh, that’d just tickle them to death. Then they had somebody to dance with, that they knew. And we’d have a good time.
JSC: Now, the man that sort of ran the service club although he was a—I don’t think he got beyond a PFC, Louie Felicia, who later had a dance studio here in Greensboro. He ran the club—oh I mentioned him over the phone, didn’t I? You might not want to tell your story on tape, but you said you had some type of story, or you said you knew something about him?
LS: Oh, it’s good. It’s a good story.
JSC: But I got him on tape last week, a year or so ago, I spent a lot of time with him, he gave us a small collection of stuff. But he was saying that when he first came; the dances were not very successful at all, the soldiers didn’t really—most of them didn’t know how to dance. The girls from, he remembered particularly the women’s college were coming over, and there was a local volunteer woman, maybe from the Red Cross or someone who was involved out there and she’d said “Louie, you need to give some dance instruction” and he said well, he didn’t think the men would, and he said “Well, I’ll think about it” and he went on leave, and when he came back she’d already promoted him. So he began giving dance instruction—I have some photographs of him—and he said after that, the dances got particularly—got a lot better because the guys were willing to try.
LS: Well, we enjoyed it, because we danced with our own little crowd, but we had a good time. But I was going to tell you, years after the camp left, and then of course I didn’t have a job after that I didn’t have any work, so I applied to the county schools, they needed a librarian out at Bessemer. Years ago they used a teacher, probably an English teacher, and she’d go in several hours and take care of the library. But I was the first full-time county librarian, school librarian. And so, of course I was in charge of all the dancing—the junior prom, junior/senior proms, all the dancing, all the singing, all the carrying on—all the entertainment. So one, year we went down to Luis’ studio, and he taught us—gave us a routine, I went in with them because I had to learn too. And we had the most marvelous time. And every year, after that I’d use that routine with another bunch of students, but I’d change it a little bit because that was my forte, I loved that. And I’d change it a little bit, and we’d do that, and we’d sing. I was a singer a long time ago, but anyway.
JSC: Oh were you?
LS: I didn’t do anything professionally. But that gave me an outlet, to go and do my thing. And we had the best programs. And I remember one of the students, and this is not about the World War II exhibit, but—I mean this is not for that—but I remember one of the students he had graduated, and he had had so much fun in the junior year—because he was one of my dancers—that he came back the next year to help me teach the others the same routine but a little different, step or two, something in there.
JSC: Since you mentioned being the first Guilford County school librarian, when did you start that?
LS: 1949. Isn’t that remarkable—I remembered.
JSC: Did they—after that time did they try to get more trained, professional librarians?
LS: I think later on they added some more. Of course now every school now has a librarian.
JSC: That’s what my—I have three degrees but one of them is librarian
LS: Good gosh.
JSC: [unclear] an undergraduate and a master’s in history, and a library of science master’s.
LS: But I um, [unclear] see, I’ve been retired 15 years.
JSC: Did you stay a school librarian until 15 years ago?
LS: Yeah.
JSC: Where did you work?
LS: I was out at Bessemer, and then I came over to Aycock. When the—when the city took all of the county schools, you know, the Bessemer school—now my mailman is going to drop mail so don’t let it scare you. [Mailman drops mail through slot] Um,
JSC: Little bit later [unclear]
LS: Oh, I know it sometimes—Yeah, not the substitute. I don’t like to have a substitute, because they don’t—sometimes they don’t put the mail where I want it. They put it in the box, and I don’t want it in the box out there, because I travel. I don’t travel as much now as I used to, and uh, that’s why I have the slot in the door.
But anyway, going back to the school work, I worked at Bessemer, they were taken into the city, but then that was made into a primary or an elementary school, not even a middle school. So I went on over to Aycock, I went with Clendenin , Bob Clendenin He was one of my students, then he became my principal. And he went on to Page and he left me at Aycock. But then I retired, after thirty years, who wouldn’t get tired? I did one year in Virginia, and then another twenty-nine over here. Then when I retired, I hit the ground running and I haven’t stopped yet.
JSC: Great. Do you remember what type of recreational facilities may have been on base, or I know there were movies, theater, were you involved in—?
LS: No, I would go to some of the shows, they had a theatre. Do you remember Tony Martin? He was a very temperamental person. Sometimes the music was too loud for him, sometimes it’s not loud enough, sometimes too slow—now this was all that I heard, because I didn’t know him I just knew him by sight. Well, we had quite a few celebrities, course Saboo[?] was out here. Incidentally I saw a movie last night, I didn’t look at it long, Saboo[?] was one of the—
JSC: I don’t think I’ve actually seen him in a movie, I’ve read about him a lot.
LS: Yeah, it was last night because I stay up half the night, but then I don’t require much sleep. But anyhow Saboo[?] was there, Broderick Crawford, Keith Andes, Alan Baxter, of course Tony Martin, Charlton Heston—he got married at the church you know. His bride-to-be came over from California or wherever she was lived, and he was married at the—
JSC: Grace Methodist.
LS: Grace Methodist, right. And uh, we probably had some more but I just—that’s all I can remember.
JSC: Donald O’Connor [unclear].
LS: Oh my goodness, how can I ever forget him. He was here. But that’s about all I can think of. We probably had more. But I just—my brain doesn’t work too well. But I haven’t thought of this in—how many years? Forty-five or so.
JSC: Okay, so you started working in ’43, the base finally closed, did you work until the very last? I think it closed until September ’46.
LS: I was right there to the tail end. I had worked up to a CAF-5[?], and I don’t even know what the salary was then, but that was a respectable rating.
JSC: What were you doing in that position? LS: I think by then I was doing correspondence, and stuff like that. I did an awful lot of typing in those years. That was so funny, of all the things I took when I was in school, I took about a year of typing because I had to have an extra class when I was in high school, and I thought “Gee, I’ll take typing.” And I have used it all of my life.
JSC: Yes, I think I took half—one semester in typing, and it has really come in handy.
LS: Oh, I know it. And I—I didn’t take any other commercial courses or anything like that. If I had, maybe I could do a little bit better bookkeeping, But, I’m the treasurer of the PEO Sisterhood, so they must trust me.
JSC: What does that stand for?
LS: Philanthropic Education Order, or Organization. It’s an international thing. So not too long ago I went to Winston for a state convention, had a wonderful time. See I was one of the officers. But sometimes I get awfully tired going to all of these meetings, I belong to everything that is not nailed down. But, I do, I enjoy it. Because when I was working I couldn’t do too much, because I was keeping house, I was trying to, and looking after my mother and her sister. I just had a lot to do.
JSC: You probably told me earlier, but when did you meet your husband? Was it in ’43 or was it later?
LS: The fall of ’43. Just as soon as I went to work out there. And then we were married the next June.
JSC: Oh, six months or so.
LS: No, in the fall I mean like August or September. But anyway, I met some nice young men out there. One of the little enlisted men I remember was a nice looking young fellow, his father was one of the Supreme Court justices in the state of New York, and I have no idea what his name is. It’s all gone. When you don’t use it, you lose it, you know? That’s it, it’s gone.
JSC: It’s gone [unclear].
LS: Well, I’m glad that somebody else can lose things too.
JSC: Oh yeah, unfortunately as you get older [unclear].
LS: Right, well, one of the young doctors here gave a program, to our [unclear], but he gave it on memory, and I took notes and then I did a little research, and I have his speech at several clubs. You don’t ever really lose anything, but it gets so packed up in there, in your memory bank, it really is very difficult, if you are healthy and normal, to pull it out. And I’m very bad on names. Years ago, my students out there in Bessemer, of course I knew every student there. And at Aycock I knew a good many of them. But that—when was last June, a year ago. Now this is off the subject, but anyway. We had an all classes reunion for Bessemer, cause see there used to be an [unclear], Bessemer High School, now it’s—whatever it is, Bessemer Middle—no, Irwin. Anyway, we had an all Classes reunion at the Kory Center, Four Season, and we had five hundred and forty people there. Well, they asked me to give a little speech, so I had prepared it, and I had changed it, and this, that, and the other, I probably stood up, and this friend of mine she was going to talk too, well she chickened out, I never chickened out of anything. [chuckles] Well I got up there but, my lord, to see the five hundred and forty faces, I wish that I could have dug a little hole and just gone right down in it, but I didn’t. I got right up there and made it.
JSC: What was all this person, or [unclear].
LS: Um, somebody who had—I don’t know who it was. But they had graduated from the school in the early 1900’s, I don’t know, maybe 1902 or somewhere along in there. And, of course not everybody came, just those that wanted too.
JSC: Some people don’t like that type of thing.
LS: I know, I love it.
JSC: You’ve given me some good impressions of the military base, and—
LS: I haven’t really given you a whole lot of stuff.
JSC: Well, for one thing I’m not going to have a lot of room to—I’m probably going to have five or six people talking, and I’m going to have to splice these together on one tape—
LS: Oh, my gosh.
JSC: Of not more than five to eight minutes.
LS: Well, I’ll tell you what you can do; keep me from being embarrassed, just every time that I say “Uh huh” you can put that in. [laughs]
JSC: But let me ask you—
LS: Let’s get back on the track, huh?
JSC: Well, I was going to shift it just a little bit, and [unclear] if you could, about Greensboro during the war. It’s sound probably, since you were working so hard, your life was pretty much work—go to work, come home, what did you do for a recreation, relaxation, leisure?
LS: Oh, went to the movies, and had dates. And—servicemen, you know, because that’s all I knew. And we had a wonderful time. And then we went out there at least two or three times a week to the service club. It was—it was a full life, let me tell you. Of course we were rationed. JSC: Do you remember much about that?
LS: Well, that’s the reason I rode the bus.
JSC: Gas rationing.
LS: Um-hmm.
JSC: What about food?
LS: No, I don’t remember that. But um, I do remember that we did not—my mother didn’t turn the heat up, and we would just freeze. It was cold, but it wasn’t too uncomfortable, but it was—we would’ve liked to have a little more heat, but we didn’t
JSC: From my readings, most people for those reasons were forced to pretty much stay home; there wasn’t a heck of a lot of traveling.
LS: Right, well I can remember we would ride downtown on the bus, go to a movie, and walk back. Walk to where the Y is, and but back one block. And that didn’t bother me at all. I think I’d die if I had to do it today. [chuckles] No, I guess I could. I’m not a real good walker.
JSC: Do you remember the city being crowded? I mean, apparently there weren’t a lot of rooms available, and there were [unclear] who tried to come in and—
LS: Those fellows who had families, or a wife, they would try to find a room, or a little apartment. People—people really did cooperate.
JSC: Did you ever, in your house, put up anyone?
LS: No, uh uh, because we had an older woman who worked, at the Jefferson Standard, so all the rooms were occupied. Helen Mason and I, we had one room, and everybody had his—she and I shared a room but other than that everybody else had their own room.
JSC: Do you remember if you entertained any soldiers for dinner or supper?
LS: No, uh, uh.
JSC: Apparently that was [unclear].
LS: Well, now a lot of people did. But it was just not real convenient at our house. Because my aunt was teaching, and then I remember we all—Helen and I dated at the house, and we’d go out. But there wasn’t too many places to go, except to the movies.
JSC: Do you—of course I’m sort of a student of history, and your various aspect of history I’m more interested in, but one thing is— it’s impossible to recreate when you’re studying or looking back at history is really the feeling—I mean, we always color the past. It’s our tendency as students, people just sort of project into the past, what it was like. But sometimes when I read about the war—I have been doing more of that in the past couple of years—you have that fleeting sense of that there was a greater sense of concern, or worry, or anxiety about the war. I mean how—can you put yourself back then at all, can you remember, I mean, was the war ever present to you, I mean was it ever a concern or a threat to yourself, or—
LS: Alright, well we had—we knew, I mean we knew what the problem was; we hated to see these boys go out because we knew that some of them wouldn’t come back—would not come back. But what really made it all brought it all so clear—clearly, to me, are the prisoners. We had a whole pile of prisoners out here. And they’d march, and they’d clean, and they’d, you know, they were always working, but they always had an MP looking, guarding them. But we had several barracks of prisoners.
JSC: Mr. Richardson, the MP, told me a little bit about that although he didn’t have direct contact. Louie Felicia said that had German prisoners, in the service club come and clean and do things, he always found them very agreeable and never had any problems.
LS: Well they never came into our building, but outside, you know, they were doing their work, I don’t know what they did.
JSC: Well did—from the—What about the perspective of the soldiers could you—I guess when it was ORD and some of them were shipping out to Europe, um—
LS: Well see, I never saw those fellows. No, I mean, I never knew those fellows. The ones that I knew were considered the permanent party, they lived there—they stayed there.
JSC: What about any of the dances you [unclear].
LS: Uh—
JSC: You probably weren’t really dancing with them, were you?
LS: No, uh uh. Just the ones that I knew, I mean nobody would come up and—I’d dance with anybody, but I mean nobody came up. Except the fellows that we knew.
JSC: I think my Mom told me—she lived down in the McCall or Laurinburg area—and she was [unclear] but she remembers going to dances, and she said a lot of the guys were really scared, a lot of them were shipping out.
LS: Now see I didn’t have a whole lot of—well I didn’t have any contact with those who were being shipped out, just the names. And uh—
JSC: Apparently, things got super hectic at the base in ’46, we have—I have papers of Colonel Younts and that’s where this came from, or about four boxes worth. Um, and in the group that we got there were several charts, and we’re going to use one of them in the exhibit, it’s a nice chart, it shows the—there are three different—it’s a graph of bars, like green, orange and brown, but it was like the projection number of soldiers—this is like ‘46, and they took this up to Washington to give a presentation, and tell them what the situation was here, but it shows that they were expecting, like thirty days beforehand, they were being told you’re going to get “x” number of men here in one month’s time. And then a week prior to that, they were going to get this many men, which is like twice as much, and on the week in question , they would get like three thousand, whereas they were originally going to have two hundred. So, his argument was the problem they were having was—and for people like yourself, too—he was arguing that they’re losing all of their experienced personnel, who was being transferred out of the service after ’46.
LS: Well, that’s right.
JSC: And they were having fewer and fewer trained people, and yet this was of import— of course, there was an urgency and throughout the country, [unclear] well where is everyone, we want our men and sons back, and our daughters too, out of the service. Do you remember that time as being hectic, or a lot more worse?
LS: No, well now, see—I didn’t—let’s see. No, I do remember, you know, that they were shipped out; some of those fellows, even the Permanent Party, some were shipped out, and of course, we would miss them. I didn’t feel that sense of urgency or whatever you want me to say, because I didn’t—we were just all together, we did our work, and that was it. But I wonder, course I’m sure that Chessie[?] Walker has died by now because she was—she was much older than I, and she commuted from Reidsville every single day. And once in a while her ride—she didn’t drive—her ride would be a little late. Just once in a—you know, not often. And oh, she’d be so upset.
JSC: [coughs]
LS: Hey, will you have something to drink?
JSC: Might just have a little glass of water.
LS: Well, would you like to have a coke?
JSC: No, no, no, some ice water [unclear]. And you knew that they were hiring, you had prospects.
LS: Uh huh. I can’t think now but I know this roommate and I, we decided that we would do this, and so she came on down and she was staying with us, living with me, when we were in Dr. Jackson’s house. The flea house. [chuckles] You’d go down into the basement, and they’d just [make noise imitating the number of fleas] all over.
JSC: The must’ve been a lot of animals or something.
LS: They must’ve kept a dog down in the basement. And it was a big house, and very expensive to heat. She came on down with me, we came—I think we came with the intent of getting a job but we had to take the civil service test, and then we were alright, we were accepted. They needed people to work, then. And she and I—she didn’t—I don’t think—she didn’t work in the same office that I did. Maybe she did for a while, but not—she went to a different department.
JSC: There were actually problems getting the base built, they didn’t have enough labor, although the local, original labor directors, are—cause there was a—I found this in the newspaper, there was an article saying that, they couldn’t understand, I think the mayor said, why more men weren’t coming forward to work, because there was enough workers, there was enough of a pool of workers in this area, to do it. So they began, they hired some black women, from um, locally, who came out and worked construction—
LS: Oh really?!
JSC: They didn’t actually do the heavy work, but they were doing, like, assisting some of the other ones, so they could do some construction. Which I found that sort of interesting, not only that they got women, but that there were as many workers. It could be, though, and I hadn’t thought about this, that some of the main contracts didn’t go to local contractors, they went to [unclear].
LS: That’s—that’s—that’s possible, uh, huh.
JSC: [unclear] imagine if you have a local contractor, they’ve got tabs on a lot more people, perhaps. Those foremen know how to get people up easier.
LS: Now, when I got here, it was—it was all together.
JSC: Pretty much.
LS: Pretty much so.
JSC: My understanding is that they were opening—they had sections like area 700, or 600, 500, I forget what they called those groupings of, of barracks, mess halls, and latrines; that would be a section. My understanding is that they would open, like one, and bring men in, and they would help get ready for the other one to open, and then— that went on until, probably the fall of ’43, and then then it was pretty much constructed.
LS: But it was sometime during the summer that we got the job.
JSC: One very graphic image I have, that the base newspaper talks about, in the summer of ’43 Wednesday night was fight night, and this is what the paper said, the ten thousand soldiers from BTC would march out the main gate, march down Summit Avenue to Memorial Stadium singing Air Force songs, and file in, sit down, and cheer their boxers from their squadron.
LS: I have no memory of that. See now, I’d gone home by then.
JSC: But I would love to—that would be great—because we were trying to figure out the other day, ten thousand [unclear]—how long would it take ten thousand men to march down Summit? [unclear] it would probably take an hour. Geez, seems like it would take a long time. But if you had 8 men abreast—
LS: Well, yeah, if they didn’t have any choice, to do, after—after working hours.
JSC: The MP, Mr. Richardson, I thought you’d be interested to know, he thought there was a definite difference and change in the personnel, not personnel, but the quality and type of soldier, when it change from BTC-10 to ORD. He said the ORD soldiers tend to be a little bit more wild. Or a lot of the ones that came back from the front that were cycling through, maybe [unclear] you would think those men being very military would be more discipline, and he said “well that’s what we assumed in many cases, but they had also been through a lot and were rougher”.
LS: They just let their hair down, in other words.
JSC: BTC soldiers, they were great training with us, and were real young, [unclear] didn’t have a lot of money, and didn’t get off the base that often.
LS: Well now my husband said—he came down and helped start the camp, start the office procedures, and things like that. He said he walked through the mud, and all that, and it was a mess.
JSC: And he was here, like in March?
LS: Oh, yeah. Oh, he came down when it opened.
JSC: Where had he done his training?
LS: Atlantic City. This is all coming back to me now. At Atlantic City, he—
JSC: Louie Felicia went to [unclear] I think he was in Atlantic City at one point.
LS: I think they were all up there.
JSC: There was basic training in Atlantic City, they lived in the hotels and marched to the beach.
LS: But then they took a whole bunch and sent them down here, to organize, you know, to get it started and get it going.
JSC: Well he must’ve liked Greensboro, too. I would assume. That’s one thing I keep—well like Mr. Richardson, but I’ve heard this from many people, it was a unique base in that it was within the city limits. Mr. Richardson said it wasn’t like you were five miles outside of a town like most military bases. You could just walk Summit downtown in a mile.
LS: Well you know the big Cone estate was right out there on Summit, on the corner there And out Bessemer was BTC-10. But that was so built up with trees and shrubs and things, that I really didn’t get a good look at it until years later Of course, she wanted that torn down, she didn’t want it to be a house to be visited by the public. The said it was a marvelous house, just wonderful.
JSC: I’ve seen pictures of it; the state took property [unclear].
LS: But, just like the Price house, of course that’s been sold. But, that was a big mansion over there in Irvin Park.
JSC: Let me ask you about the sense of Patriotism, or the general consensus of historians and the average person you talk to, including my parents, is that soldiers came during the war.
LS: Oh, they got invited out to Sunday dinner—I mean more of them got invited out then didn’t. Because this town was very patriotic about that. But Helen and I would, we’d go out and we’d have our dates and things. It was not real convenient for us to have them at home, and so we just didn’t.
JSC: Do you have any memory of lack of patriotism? I ask this because I have letters from a woman writing to her husband, [unclear] he was a Navy person in the Pacific [unclear] a dinner party on Sunset Hills, and she of the fifteen women there I was the only one whose husband was in the military.
LS: Oh, really?
JSC: There’s a woman at our, who’s working in the museum part-time now who is a retired court reporter, who worked over in Winston-Salem during the war, and she said that the number of cases of people, sort of, trying to get out of the military was quite numerous. But anyway, that— it’s that little tidbits of stuff like that make a balance, but you don’t have any [unclear].
LS: No, no, not really. I mean, everything was done, follow the soldier. It was just—it was just a regular thing. I have talked to people since then, they would have soldiers in to eat, and they said “Oh, the soldiers came in to eat every Sunday to eat, my parents had them in.” Which was fine, you know, that was patriotic. I think this town did a lot for the—that’s the way I feel. Of course, I was [unclear] and I didn’t get to mingle with the townspeople because I was working all the time. But I think they were real patriotic.
JSC: Do you think, by and large, that the military base was a real plus for Greensboro? There was some urgency after the war ended—had ended—to get rid of the base, there was a great urgency to get it, and then there was a great urgency to [unclear].
LS: Yes, and then they wanted to do away with it. But, you know, I didn’t feel—I wasn’t a part of that. Maybe the merchants wanted to do away with it, after a while, after they got tired of it.
JSC: Well, part of it was I’m sure, that it was going to be a great real estate [unclear] because they had all the utilities out there, [unclear].
LS: Oh, it was, that was something. Did the government give it to them—to the city, or what?
JSC: Well, the Cone family, or Caesar Cone and Proximity Manufacturing Company, leased 500—about 505, 550 acres to the U.S. government for 1500 dollars a year. Then another 140 acres was put together by Kemp Clendenin and [unclear] realtors, because the military needed at least 600 acres. So after the war was over, that’s when [unclear] bought the property, and the buildings, and so forth, began auctioning it off, selling it off. So it reverted back to private ownership. So the U.S. Government never owned it, it was just a lease, a short-term lease. I’ve got one lawyer I need to talk with, because he was involved in the initial purchase of it and he was put in charge with helping them to get rid of it, his name’s Mr. [unclear]. Interestingly he told me—I met him before, and then on the phone this year I talked with him once, but he was looking to get someone to help him divide up the buildings, the barracks were, like you said, there were a lot of buildings were crude, and the only ones that were a little better construction was the hospital, there was a big hospital—
LS: Oh, I know it.
JSC: But it was the hospital when they started breaking it up, and by that I guess they broke it into sections and would sell them, because farmers bought barracks, and a lot of people bought barracks, I think they were several, three hundred dollars, I found an ad in the paper [unclear].
LS: I didn’t realize that.
JSC: Now Mr. [unclear] said, now go look at that 1947 May or June, that’s when we started advertising, so I did find a few ads.
LS: Oh, well you see—
JSC: But he said, “I went down on Tate Street, I was trying—because I got tied up and I couldn’t find enough time to start—to handle all the hospital and I was looking for someone. I went down there, and there was a guy on Tate Street, his name was Fred Corey[?].”
LS: Oh!
JSC: “It was either Fred, or it was his father, whichever one. And I got him, he helped me get rid of the investment.” [chuckles] What got Corey’s involved in the [unclear], I tell you. Anyway, so I know there— I think there was a great urgency on the part of the realtors and certain people. And just right after the war, it was, I think until the fifties, that whole ORD, which became sort of a name of that development, was one of the more prosperous industrial park areas in the state. So, you know, money, and everything was involved, and the doors of a controversy of the forties—late ’45, ’46 with some people in town saying that base uptown has got to go, and some people saying no.
LS: Now, see, I didn’t hear that.
JSC: And the army not really sure what they wanted to do, and the army would argue “Well listen, you’re getting million dollars of payroll, [unclear].” So it was sort of interesting. We don’t have to go into a lot of detail of this, I sort of just indicate that if it fits in it.
LS: But I, you know, I didn’t hear too much about that, I just—and I can’t remember when I stopped. I didn’t tell you, did I? No—
JSC: Well you thought you’d probably worked up until—near the very end,
LS: Well, I did. I worked up until about—and then, I worked up—I think I had a year, I think it was about ’47 that I quit, because I think it was going up there—’46 or ’47. Because I remember when—
JSC: Now, I think it was September ’46 was when it was supposed to close down.
LS: It closed. Well, then I had two years before I went out to Bessemer. I remember one year, I went with my husband down to Atlanta, he was doing some training with Sears, so I went down there and lived.
JSC: Was he employed by Sears?
LS: Yes. Only until the—you know, Sears I famous for laying off folks whether they’re higher up, or lower, whatever. He was in charge of quality control. And just one day, they just called him and said that they would no longer need him. So they he went out and finally got a job out at Container—you know, Container Corporation. And he was the plant manager out there, until—until his death. So, that was a long time—um, I’m just trying to think. Oh, I know. Somebody would—this was before—I don’t know, maybe it was after I was married, too. The captain in our office, and I can’t remember who he was, he’d come by and pick up Helen and me—no, evidently it was before I was married. He’d come by and pick us up and take us to the base—after we’d learned the ropes and things, he’d come by and pick us up.
JSC: Oh, that was convenient.
LS: Yeah, oh yeah. Captain somebody, and was a nice young man. But he was not young—you know not as young as I was, but I can’t think of his name. But I know for a long time, this Walter Palin was captain and he was in charge of my husband’s office there. And so he—the two of them wrote regularly after Captain Palin left, he went back to Minnesota or Idaho, or somewhere. And he and my husband would correspond. But then I haven’t heard in years and I’m sure he’s gone, too. But, I don’t know of anything else I can say—
JSC: Did ya’ll ever go out to eat? Apparently the Boar and Castle was still—was a popular place, even during the war.
LS: I went out—we went out there one time. We had to save our money.
JSC: I’ve got the ladies’ letters I told you about—she said “We splurged last night, me and the children, we went out to the Boar and Castle, so I took a pie and some chips, and we bought steak sandwiches. And the way—the drive out there, the children remembered how often we’d come this way, all four of us, and how much they missed you. “
LS: Oh, yeah.
JSC: I’ve got a lot of wonderful letters, where she talks about her children, a section—I’ve got a section about children during World War II, and I use a quote from her daughter Sherry, and said—she was writing to her husband, saying what Sherry had said the night before, and Sherry had said the night before, she said “If someone offered me a million dollars and a bicycle, I would say just them—give them—give me Daddy”.
LS: Aww. [chuckles]
JSC: I think—that’s going to be in the second gallery, though, which we—you’ll go in, what you’re going to see as you come into the exhibit, we’re going to have probably a four by five foot color transparency backlit like a slide, of this main gate, there’s going to be two or three different little panels, and sections where you sort of orient yourself to World War II, I’ve got chronology, what Greensboro was like, and we’re going to have a board which—I have a lot of 1940’s—’44 statics on Greensboro, the population, the number of streets, how many [unclear], and all that. And then, you’ll be able to—you try to guess what the 1992 statistics are, and you can push a button and light up, so we’re going to have that. Which will be fun, a sort of learning, interactive—
LS: So when is this going to —
JSC: In November. But, so, very first you will see the—where you’ll sort of go, get sort of a background on Greensboro, why the base came here, and all that. Then you’ll go in sort of the—past the —this transparency, you’re going to sort of a base area where we’re going to recreate a barracks scene, [unclear] original bunk beds and all that set up. There was a war information center out on the base, I don’t know if you remember it, but it sort of evolved from a little—little hut, and it got real big, had a big sign had a photograph, said “War Information Center” and they had a blackboard there, if some breaking news or an invasion was going on, they would sort of [unclear] and they would post, and they had a map, and so—
LS: Well that was nearer. Was that near, or sort of in the middle?
JSC: Well, I don’t know exactly where it was, it was probably closer near the headquarters, maybe. Do you remember something like that?
LS: No. Probably so, and it just—
JSC: Well, we’re going to reconstruct it as [unclear] a scale replica but also as a station where—I’ve had a student go through all the newspapers and develop all the main headlines for every week, so every week in the two-year run of exhibit I’ll be changing on blackboard that week’s headlines from fifty years ago. And then we’ll probably post basic newspaper facsimile of it every week, run of the exhibit. And the rest of the gallery talks about basic training, how they trained, what they did; entertaining, how the troops were entertained. Oh, and the separation process, what had to be done for the men to separate out of the service. Then you’ll go from that gallery to sort of a home front area, in front of the USO [United Service Organizations] scene, I think we’re going to have a couple of —man and a girl dancing, mannequins, with clothes—period clothing, music, and I talked about the recreation in town, the churches, what they were involved with, what the children did, rationing scrap, and all of that background. The businesses in town, how—what they were involved with, we’re going to recreate a living room diorama scene, with furniture, radio, music, and news reports from Pearl Harbor to VJ Day [Victory over Japan Day] coming out of it.
LS: My, this is, this is—going—it’s a—
JSC: My, this is the biggest thing we’ve ever done.
LS: Oh, my gosh.
JSC: I think it’s going to be real popular, we’re working—I’ve been working constantly working on it for a year. I was in the mountains a couple of years ago, and I said “We probably need to do something on World War II Greensboro.”
LS: And I’ll bet you said “I’ll do it!”
JSC: No, they said “That’s a great idea.”
LS: No, they said “You do it, you do it.” [laughs]
JSC: My job was to really organize it, and do the research and write. So I sort of wrote the script, and we need to talk about this, this and this, then it was a matter of finding the photographs or objects to go along. So we have a lot of photographs, and posters, and you know, things. In the oral history area, that’s—I’ve got sort of a capsule of what the BTC, and ORD did, and then in that are the reminiscences as we call it, and that’s where hopefully a few of your sentences, or a paragraph, will be stringed together, along with —Do you know Walter Sills of Sill Shoe [unclear]?
LS: Lord, yeah.
JSC: Well, I’ve got him on tape, and Louie, and you, they’ll be two or three other ones, and I’ve got to put that together in a five, eight minute—right now though we’re not sure how we’re going to produce it together, it’ll either be that you’ll just push a button and a tape will start, and one after the other we’ll have a reminiscence and you’ll just see photographs of the people. But in that case it wouldn’t necessarily be linked, but I’m also having to go investigate you push a button, and instead of having photographs you would have transparencies, and so when you talk, your transparency would light up and we’d see you sitting at the desk.
LS: Oooh.
JSC: And we’d hear you, and then you’d fade out, and Walter Sill’s voice comes on, and that would be the best thing, just not sure how much it’s going to cost to do that. But one or the other they’ll—initially I thought people would just enjoy hearing some people just reminisce about what it was like. In respect to how fancy we can get with it. And I still believe that.
LS: But you know, I still don’t feel like I gave you a whole lot of information, because I came here, I got the job, I went to work, I came home, and then of course we went to the dances. But I thought that was just wonderful that they needed ladies to dance, and they’d send these crappy old army trucks after us, and we’d go. I mean, there was no fear, no—we weren’t afraid of anybody, maybe [unclear]. But there were—just things just didn’t happen, as far as I know.
JSC: Now, was the— do you remember music? They’d have live bands at times.
LS: Oh, yeah.
JSC: Good music?
LS: Wonderful music. And then they had their own band. The Bass Band.
JSC: I’ve got pictures of marching bands, and—
LS: [unclear] Tony Martin, he’d sing with the band, you know. Sometimes the music wouldn’t suit him, and oh, he was a pain in the neck. But they couldn’t throw him out, he was entertaining. But, I don’t know—
JSC: Do you consider those fond memories”
LS: Yeah, yeah I had a marvelous time. I really did.
JSC: I think a lot of people felt—that I’ve read and a few that I’ve talked to, a great deal of a sort of excitement, I mean, I guess things were really concentrated [unclear].
LS: Well, I had a wonderful time doing this, I felt that I was doing something patriotic also, in addition to having a raise from ninety dollars an hour. And all of those things contributed to my feeling about that era.
JSC: Do you remember VJ Day, or the celebration? LS: Yeah.
JSC: What did you do?
LS: I don’t remember! [laughs] I don’t remember!
JSC: There was big courses of—there was a big parade downtown—
LS: You tell me the date of it.
JSC: Well, it was August—I believe actually the announcement was made by President Truman on August—the evening of August 14th. So that night there was a big celebration in Jefferson Square. But I think August 15th was officially VJ Day and things were closed, and there was big parade. And we’ve got photographs of some festivities—
LS: And I may have been right there, but that doesn’t—that is not in my memory bank, like going to—like working, I enjoyed it, I mean, we had a good time. And we had a—we felt a sense of responsibility and patriotism, and you know it was something we were doing to help our country, along with all of these other goodies that came along. But I had a good time. Of course, I’ve always had a good time no matter where I go or what I do!
JSC: That’s uh, yeah if you can achieve that state in life, you are in better condition than—some people just can get there! [unclear]
LS: [chuckles] Oh, I know.
JSC: I’m telling you, buddy, I feel like I’m fighting World War II, every year that I [unclear].
LS: Oh Lord.
JSC: Some days and weeks I’m not sure if I’m winning or losing. We’re making good progress, but still, it would feel much better if it was like last year this time than where we are now, then it’d be great.
LS: But you know, funny thing, I never saw any of those fellows after the base closed and they went away. I never saw any of them come back here. Carl Buffington[?] was captain, he married somebody here, so he—
JSC: Patsy Jones.
LS: Yeah, so he stayed here didn’t he?
JSC: Yes. I talked with him—
LS: You did? Oh, great!
JSC: Three weeks ago.
LS: He used to be the best-looking man you ever did see—he was a good-looking fellow!
JSC: Well the reason I called him was—
LS: What does he look like now?
JSC: Well, he lives in Connecticut. I think it’s Connecticut.
LS: Oh, you didn’t see him then.
JSC: No, Kit Ravenel —do you remember the Ravenels? Dr. Ravenell—Sam, he was a pediatrician?
LS: Yes.
JSC: Well, Kit is his daughter, and she gave us all of her mothers’ scrapbooks from the war, they entertained about 2700 soldiers at their house.
LS: Well, see now, they would.
JSC: She kept bringing me a few things, and one of them was the wedding photograph of Carl Buffington and Patsy Jones.
LS: Oh, yes.
JSC: So I wanted to use that as just an example of the marriages that went on in Greensboro, but I didn’t know enough about it, so I talked to Kit, and she told me Patsy’s brother-in-law is in town, so I called him and said—Buffy is still living, although not in very good health, so I called and called and talked with Carl, and Patsy was—
LS: Well, he was older than I.
JSC: Well, he’s—well, I’m sure how old—I’m not sure if I put that down. He met her at an officer’s club at ORD, and he said—he told the person sitting there “That’s the girl I’m going to marry.”
LS: Did you ever run across the name of Sam Fagg? I think he was a lieutenant, he was from Eden, or Reidsville, or somewhere like that, of course he died. But I don’t—
JSC: Well, that’s funny though, a lady just called me yesterday, an older woman, she lives out in Summerfield, last name was Fagg. She wasn’t calling about ORD, she was calling about [unclear] Cone photographs in the paper, there was an article about a group of old photographs that Bernard Cone took, she wanted to come see those. She goes back a long ways in the history of the [unclear].
LS: Oh, well, he was F-A-G-G. He was from Reidsville, or you know, some little town up the road. But I can’t—he died years ago, I don’t know what happened to him. Of course, I always read the obituaries, to see who’s gone.
JSC: Mr. Martin is very ill, Carol Martin, the photographer.
LS: Oh, yes.
JSC: He retired last year and we got most of his photographs, well, about forty years’ worth, 200,000 negatives.
LS: Oh my gosh!
JSC: [unclear] He’s got cancer, and [unclear].
LS: Now, he’s old.
JSC: Eighty—I guess he’s eighty-two this year, something like that. Well, I don’t have any other questions that I can think of.
LS: Well, right now I can’t think of another thing.
JSC: There’s not one particular event or occurrence or anything that really stands out in your mind, or anything of those years, is there? I told Mr. Richardson when I talked with him, the MP, and he said “Oh, there’s probably that first—that first call we got out at—to go out to Knuckles Restaurant because there was a fight going on between soldiers and civilians.” He said “The police went through the back door and we went through the front door, and a beer bottle hit me in the head and didn’t hurt me. That’s probably the most memorable experience I’ve had.” [unclear]
LS: No, I don’t—the only thing I remember real clear is my feet—
JSC: Tell that—I didn’t get that one on—
LS: Yes, you did!
JSC: Tell that story; I didn’t get that on tape, though. When you’re talking about wearing the shoes? Oh, the feet, the cold, being cold.
LS: Yeah, but the first day I went out there I had to walk from office to office to office, we started at the gate, and they sent us, you have to go to, into, it was one of those warehouses in there, and we walked in my high-heeled shoes, and I mean they weren’t little they were high. They were white suede shoes. But I was young, and I didn’t have any better sense. [laughs] Pride is neither too hot nor too cold.
JSC: Was there any type of dress code, or—
LS: No.
JS: You didn’t have like an office uniform?
LS: Oh no, no.
JS: But I can tell you right now, none of the girls—they didn’t have any money—well the styles were different, too—it was just plain long clothes. But we hadn’t right many—I don’t know how many girls we had working, I can’t remember that. Well, six or eight? We worked like I don’t know what.
LS: At the most there were maybe, I mean even when you got an increase in staff there were only six or eight?
LS: No, it might’ve been more. But at one time then I was sort of—now this—I didn’t even have a title or anything, but I had—I guess maybe seniority, I had been there longer than the rest of them except Chessie[?], and Chessie was not a leader. And for Lord’s sake, don’t say that on tape, but she’d do anything you said do, but she was not a leader, and then it was my place to see the correspondence got out on time—all the service records. But then, LT. Kernon—Emma—she was a little tiny person, but she was strictly military.
JSC: Well, did you have trouble with that?
LS: No, no. No, I never—Oh! One time we were just sitting up there typing, carrying on, and it was up there near the warehouse, in the warehouse, and Mrs. Roosevelt came rushing through. She was on the tour, of course we just watched her like that; she didn’t stop and speak to anybody. But she just went on. But she came through, on a little tour.
JSC: But I’ve got to have—I’ve got photographs of [coughs] excuse me—I’ve got photographs of—did you know she was on base, you just had no idea that she was coming through?
LS: I think we knew that she was somewhere there, but we had no idea that she was coming through our place of business. And of course, I don’t know what—maybe not much work after that, we were so excited about it. Because we didn’t have much excitement. But I told you about Artie Murphy’s[?] brother, being there, and he would tell us about him. And there was somebody, I have no idea who it was now, but he said that he knew Frank Sinatra, when he was just a plain [unclear] dumb kid up there, in Brooklyn. And he was always—they’d ride to work, this was before that man got inducted into the service—and they would ride to work, and Frank would just be singing, at the top of his voice, all the way to work, and all the way home. Hoboken, I think, wasn’t that where he was from?
JSC: Yeah, I think you’re right. Now you might not—Louie Felicia was in vaudeville, I didn’t know if you knew about it.
LS: No, I didn’t know that. I just knew he had this dance studio, and we went there and he taught us a routine.
JSC: [unclear] He and his wife were a team, and she [unclear] I forget now, but she got killed—did she and—I forget now but I think they had a child, maybe she was pregnant, but anyway she was killed sometime in the thirties. But he became good friends with Danny Thomas when he was in also vaudeville, this man in the twenties—I forget the decade now, but it was before— and I forget what Danny Thomas’ real name is, but it was before he became popular or famous or whatever—and Louie showed me a couple letters from Thomas. But one, I don’t know if it was Chicago or Cleveland, or some town, he said that Thomas was very depressed, and Louie went to him one night, and said “I want to give you this”, it was St. Jude’s medallion, and so Louie is the one who gave him—Thomas when he took it, said it was—
LS: The inspiration for the hospital.
JSC: “Someday I’m going to do something with this, if I ever make it big” or something like that. Louie said eighteen years ago Thomas was on a talk show, somewhere in Cleveland or that area, and Louie’s brother-in-law, brother, or sister—he had several sisters—saw it when Thomas was recounting this event, he said “I forget exactly who it was that he gave me that” but I meant it was the same thing—
LS: Oh, yeah!
JSC: He made some contact with him, they never were able to get together before Thomas died, but he saved some letters, and I thought that was a real interesting story.
LS: Oh, that’s interesting.
JSC: He’s a real nice, man, Louie.
LS: Now where is he living?
JSC: Well, he lives in a small house which is now is integrated neighborhood, but it’s very small, [unclear] there right behind ORD, it’s very small, it’s over on—off East Wendover.
LS: Really? And he’s still there?
JSC: He’s still there. It’s a dinky little house—I’m mean, it’s a nice house, well kept, he’s got a garden, and all of that, but it’s one of those little houses built right after the war. And he told about some friends “Hey they’re putting up some buildings” because as he was saying, it was real hard to get housing in Greensboro after the war, because so many men were coming back, fact is, some of the men were using some of the barracks, and they were saying, “Come over here, there are some of these houses” and he bought it, and he’s been there. But the neighborhood has changed a lot.
LS: Oh, gosh.
JSC: But he seems to be getting by okay. LS: Well, that’s good. Of course, he’s retired, and—
JSC: Yes, but he must just—I guess he likes it there, and still has friends that come over, he’s real good friends with Cindy Stern.
LS: Oh, yeah. But the way that I remembered him is when I took my class down there, to the dancers, someone had asked him if he would do it, and he said he’d just be tickled to death. So away we went. Thing is, I had charge of the annual, and I had charge of the entertainment for the junior, senior banquet, and I taught French, and when I could I did library science.
JSC: [unclear] You had a full year, you really did.
LS: Yes, but it was interesting.
JSC: Well, I think we’ve exhausted everything here.
[End Interview]